Hey all, havig some electronics problems with my tank, so Iwanted to throw it out to the community. I started with a HL Tiger I (RX-18, S+S, but all plastic). Ibought a DBC (NOT a dbcdc2, just to be clear) and connected that on. Then Idropped the flasher down the barrel...and couldn't figure out where it connects. The flasher box depicts removing something (unknown, but a two-prong connector Ithink) from CN3 on the RX-18, replacing that with the High-Intensite Discharge flash unit, and then plugging whatever that first plug was back into the two-wire tail that's haning off the flasher plug. Dunno what's supposed to be plugged in there, because Idon't have any unaccounted-for dangling wires. So it's just hanging off. I've now reassembled the tank and soldered in the DBC where it goes. Iget the motors running correctly, the turret turns and the machine gun fires. When Ipress the "K" button on the controller I get the "fire!" sound from the DBC, but no flash. G button fires the machine guns like normal.

Unfortunately, Istarted the dissasembly months ago and am only now re-assembling it, so Ihave no real idea what goes where, though most of it seems to be working. And here's the kicker...Igot, um...shall we say, overenthusiastic? Iwas annoyed at how Icouldn't get the hull off the chassis when Iwanted to poke around inside, and Ihated turning it over to switch it on, change the volume, etc...so Imoved all the switches and controlls to the turret. And then decided ina regrettable flash of genius to hook up all that spagetti mess of wires through mimi-deans connectors-you know, to make it easy to get the pieces apart, right? And I'm afraid Icrosswired something in the process >.<. So, in a nutshell, here's my questions:

-Is the HL High-Intensity flash unit compatible with the DBC?
-If left upstick is making the gun elevation cycle, did Iscrew something up or is it working correctly?
-Left downstick does nothing. Iwant to say this used to cycle the elevation, but Idon't remember. It certainly doesn't trigger the flash unit now. Oh, and this used to be an Airsoft tank, but Ichopped up the airsoft part. Left the motor intact in the tank (didn't know how to dissable it without breaking the tank) but it no longer shoots BB's.
-Did the airsoft EVER trigger the tank fire noise? Idon't remember.
-don't seem to remember how the IR flasher hooks up and is triggered. Anyone know A) where it pluggs in, and B) what circuit triggers it?
-Lastly, how and what do Iconnect to get the HL cannon flash unit working?

Ok, thanks guys! Hope this all made sense, and Iappreciate the help.</p>

Guys...

As this seems to address a similar issue I have, here goes:

Which I/R battle units ARE compatible? Using the Tamiya TaBU as the baseline, which others will work with it, with or without minor mods. I ask as only two of my current units will be fully Tamiya-equipped, and the rest may need HL or other units to be battle-capable.

Thanks.

In the interest of keeping this thread from getting hijacked (Ineed the technical assistance!), please allow me to answer your question, WW. First, some basics. You may know this stuff, but for the uninitiated reader, Ihope you'll bear with any repetition or duplication of what you already know. *Ahem* All IR battle systems work by shooting a pulsed flash ofinfra-red (invisibleto youand me, though interestingly not to cell phone camaras)light from it's IR source (called the IR LED, or IR flasher, or That IR Thingy). This pulse is...imprinted, lets say, with a specific code in computer language. When anotherproperly equiped tank "sees" this code, it records a "hit" and does whatever is appropriatefor that hit (makes LED lights flash, causestracks to wiggle and tankceaseforward motion,reducesmotive power, disables the tank, whatever). The code shotby the first tank is"seen" by theIR reciever of the secondtank. This iscalled variously the "TBU" (on the Tamiya), the "Battle Unit" (though some manufacturers seem to use this term to mean the whole battle circuit, not just the reciever), the "apple"(no idea why), or the "mushroom" (cuz it looks likeone).

When this code is "seen" or recieved by the reciever/ battleunit/ apple, it sends a signal toa computer board. This part gets a little tricky, I'm afraid. On the modern Tamiya, SLU and El Mod systems this computer board is integrated into themain board and is not aseparate system; all you need to battle if you own theseis the IR source and the reciever (the LEDand the apple). The IBU(Italian Battle Unit) that just came out is a seperate board that is touted to work on the Heng Long,WSN, Mato and Mattoro tanks, but still need the apple and IR LED. The DBU/DBC (Dave's Battle Unit/Circuit), sometimes called "Darkith's DBU" or suchlike, is another add-on unit like the IBU, but is well-tested and respected. At any rate, this battle circuitryreads the code and applies damage,counts the tank as destroyed, etc., whatever it is that the manufacturer programmed it to do. All of this is to say that every IR Battle System has three parts; the IR source, the reciever, and the circuitry that controlls themand and the tank. Sometanks (HengLong, WSN, Mato, etc.)will need all three parts, butothers (Tamiya, or HL's with the El Mod or SLU systems installed) only need the apple and the IRLED to work.
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This is where things start getting REALLY complicated. There are several types of Battle Systems out there, but they are NOT all cross-compatible! The IR Battle system that comes installed on Heng Long IR battle tanks is a stand-alone system; it ONLY works with other Heng Long tanks and is NOT compatible with others. The WSN is the likewise a seperate system, and does not play well with others either. The generaly accepted, tried-and-true, industry standard is the Tamiya system. It is the first IR battle system and the one that nearly everyone uses. If you want to go to a club, or to a HEAT event, or to Danville, or almost anywhere else, you'll need to be Tamiya-compliant. If all you want to do is mess around with your buddy or your son in the back yard, then by all means save yourself the dough and use the Heng Long IR tanks! Or if you like WSN's offerings, then them (thouhg HL and WSN don't play with each other, so you can't even mix and match them...). Really, though, this hobby is more fun with a big group of people, and that pretty much means Tamiya compliant.

The deal with Tamiya compliance is that it's more than "are they speaking the same language", or is your tank shooting and recieving Tamiya-coded IRpulses. Oh, no, that'd be too EASY! No, Tamiya decided to make things more complicated with something called "weight classes". The Weight Classes were Tamiya's attempt to simulate the differences between light, medium and heavy tanks.The way Tamiya-compliant systems simulate a tank taking damage is by reducing the power output to the motors after recieving a certain number of hits (the number varies by weight class). On the first tier (the first shot for Lights and maybe Mediums, a couple shots for a Heavy) the power output to the motors is cut by %25. Note that this isn't a %25 SPEED reduction-it's a POWER reduction, which reduces speed by a varying amount depending on which manufacturer, tank, gearbox, tracks, battery (and a host of other variables) you are running. After a certain number of additional hits (which varieswith weight) the power output is dropped to %50; the next step is "tank destroyed". Lighter tanks lose power more rapidly and are destroyed by fewer hits than a heavy; however, they also reload significantly faster, which is a huge advantage if used correctly. Heavy tanks can take significantly more hits than a light and have a slower power drop-off; they also take longer to reload their guns. Mediums tanks are in between these extremes. Like it or not, accurate or not, this is what a Tamiya compliant system does, and it's an important point to consider when thinking about which Battle System to invest in.

All that was background that you likely already know. Iput it here to make the next section make sense and for a consistant explanation. This next part discusses the particlars of the various battle systems. Iwon't cover ALLthe details, but try to hit the important ones on the currently manufactured Battle Systems as of September 2011.

-Tamiya: The Tamiya system is the grandaddy of them all, and is arguably the simplest and perhaps best (if by best you mean "most Tamiya compliant with least fuss"). If you have a Tamiya tank that rolls, you have a tank that only needs a BattleSystem consisting of the IRLED and the "apple" (IR reciever). The Tamiya Battle Unit is %100 compatible with Tamiya tanks as-is and needs absolutely no modifications to work (which is fairly obvious, but sets it apart from it's competitors). Just install and go. Of course, Tammy tanks are between $500 and $1500 depending on where you get them, but at least the Battle unit only costs about $90 or so. Impact also makes a %100 compatible Battle Unit, and if you futz with it Darkith's can be made to work, but that's usually not worth it...

-El Mod: The El Mod is a complete electronics replacement system and upgrade for those that want the ultimate in tanking experience. It can operate in a Tamiya-duplicate mode (weight class, hits, power drop-off, etc.), but has options allowing for simulated momentum and other goodies that can really crank up the tanking experience. The sound system is arguably better than anyone else's, and the El Mod is infinitely customizable and specifiable for your particular tank. Not just your TYPE or BRAND of tank, but YOUR TANK. On the down side, it is more expensive than three or four Heng Long's put together, installation can be abear if you don't know what you're doing (remember,you're replacing every single bit of the electronics!)and can be very, very complex to program. Not for the beginner, but a wikid kewl electronics package none-the-less. Usually runs something like $350 to $500 for a complete set-up, NOT including the tank.

-SLU: this is a relative newcomer to the tanking scene. It's letters stand for Sound and Light Unit, and it, too is a complete electronics replacement package. It comes with the multi-function board and battle system all rolled into one (like the Tamiya and El Mod, you bring your own reciever board), the IRLED and IRReciever, as well as a lot of cool LED running lights and such. It's sound is supposed to be good (never heard one live) and it's lighting options are excellent, so if you want a tank that can battle (sorta-more on this below) and look REALLYCOOLdoing it, this is a good system. It comes preprogrammed with your selected sound set (selectable even, Ithink, to which type of Sherman engine your tank supposedly has). It's also more flexible than the El Mod or Tamiya in that you can program your tank (via a TV-remote looking controller) for aspecific amount of ammo, front armor invulnerability, how long between reloads, exact number of hits (varying much more widely than Tamiya's 3, 5 and 9) and more. It runs about $200 or so (again, not including tank). Woot, this is the one! Right? Well...no. There's a problem. It sends and recieves Tamiya-compliant codes and can be programmed for the exact number of hits it's "weight class" would have-except the power drop-off is wrong! It doesn't drop in motive power the way a Tamiya system does, never going to the %25 mark (please, please correct me if I'm wrong!However,this is what Iremember reading). In a competitive tanking club, this would give the operator a certain advantage and willpossibly not be accepted as a competitor, thus rendering all your efforts null. However, it is PERFECT for certain builds or projects, like perhaps a JagdTiger or Elephant, or an artillery piece, etc. So, while Tamiya COMPATIBLE (it interfaces with their stuff), it isn't Tamiya COMPLIANT (doesn't work like it does), thus engendering all my above explanation and set-up. Yep, all for this one system. Nice, eh? So it's cool, complicated to install, not quite compliant, but nice none-the-less.

-DBU/DBC: This is aguably the most popular Battle System out there after the Tamiya. You can get kits right from Darkith, the guy who designed it, or as built units from Phil at RCTankwars. That's where Igot mine, and Ilike them.This unit is significantly differentfrom the Tamiya system (which is built in), or the El Modand SLU systems (which are complete transplants) in that it's a piggyback or parasite system. The Heng Long tank comes with all the functions a tank needs to have (movement, turret rotation, gun elevation, etc) as well as a proprietary, anti-social IR battle system. What ththe DBCdoes is parasite onto the Heng Long RX-18 circuit board and make it Tamiya-compliant. You need to solder two fiddly wires onto the RX-18 board, reconnect a few wires to the DBC instead of the RX-18, figure out how to install the IR LED in your build (stock HL mounting is NOT kosher-there is a generally accepted standard that Iforget, but it isn't the HL way), and figure out where to place the apple (it isn't at all the same as the Tamiya or HL apple) and you're good! You can battle tanks costing much more than your whole setup cost with perfect Tamiya compliance. It also allows you to optionally turn off the "super-spin" feature of the HL tanks as well as optionally allowing "momentum", which, varying according to weight class, simulates a weighty vehicle starting moving and rolling to a stop as opposed to starting and stopping instantly. Very cool and it can really enhance the driving experience. Interestingly this is NOT available for Tamiya systems without an add-on chip (the Turnigy momentum chip). It should be noted that the HL IR apple is NOT useable with the DBU/DBC without a good amount of fiddling that isn't supported by Darkith. It's been done, but Ibelieve it's a pain. Now, understand, this isn't plug-and-play paradise like Tamiya. You have to solder, scratchbuild, sweat and swear a bit to get it to work, but it DOES. It comes with a sound card that has a replacement fireing and hit sound that is moderately selectable (you can get German sounds, US sounds, Russian, etc.), but it's mostly the stock HL tanks sounds, which are fairly bad all told. The Tamiya, El Mod and SLU are all better for this. YHR is working on a way to get the Benedini sound card to work with the DBC, but he isn't done yet. It retails at about $75 for a kit (if you can solder electronics) or $125-$145 for an assembled model from Phil. Oh, and one model works with the radio reciever that's already in your tank, while the other interfaces with a standard 2.4 Gz RC radio reciever,so you can go either way radio wise. this is the cheapest, if not easiest, Tamiya-compliant Battle System out there for Heng Long.

-IBU or Italian Battle Unit: This is a recent and promising newcomer to the RC tank electronics market. I've never seen one, but the description and videos look pretty darn sweet, so we'll see. It works much like the DBU in that it it's a parasite battle unit, working with your tank's stock electronics instead of replacing them. Like the DBU it's completely Tamiya compliant and is set up according to vehicle weight class as defined by Tamiya. However, it is supposed to work with WSN, Mato and Mattoro as well as Heng Long, something the DBC/DBU DOESN'T do. The creators say that you can also use the HL Apple and IRLED as well as the Tamiya and Impact units withthis board (with some fiddling and scratchbuilding), so you only need the board itself if you already have a HL IR battle tank. It also adds onto the stock sounds instead of replacing them, so on a HL tank you still get the HL generic tank engine noise (and the annoying whine), but it seems to sound a bit better than the DBC. Again, never seen oneIRL, so Ican only report on what Ihear. However, this little number offers a few features that NOOTHERsystem does, if it works like the manufacturers say it does. Native to the system is a "recovery tank" option (they call it the "bergepanzer" option after the German WWIIrecovery vehicles) that allows one tank, programmed as an unarmed "recovery tank", to repair the hits a damaged tank has taken. So if a tank is on it's last life and can barely roll around, the recovery tank can roll up, do it's thing, and after a short interval the first tank is good as new and zooming around the battlefield! Of course, this ONLY works between IBU-equipped tanks which limits it's utility, but it's still cool. Oh, and the "recovery tank" has a sound and light show to go with it. Not only that, these guys are working on a way to simulate landmines, whereby a tank takes a hit if it rolls over a magnet. Cool, eh? again, it's IBU-specific and can't be made to work on DBC, El Mod, Tamiya, etc, but Ilike the idea. It retails at about $200 and has JUST begun to be available, so buyer beware, but it's worth taking a look at.

Ithink I've covered Battle System basics and all the readily-available IR battle systems out there. I'd appreciate any input or additions anyone wants to offer, and Ihope tankers everywhere can benefit from this little post. Due to it's length and utility I'm also going to post it into it's own topic. Happy Tanking!


Andrew</span></p>

Argh! That lastpost was about three times as long and covered which different systems are available, general features and ballpark estimates, but it didn't post! Crap &gt;.&lt; I'm too tired to recreate it now, but if there's interest in a further explanation and brief overview of the generally available systems Icould be persuaded to recreate it . Anyone want a Dummies Guide to Tank Battle Systems?

WhiteKnight:

Known how they work since the guys started hacking 'em to make their own ages ago... but some may like the data. Remember its not JUST the coding, but the I/R wavelength of the shot. If it strays, how much variance can the detector compensate for? Thats why the guys tested the Tamiya originally - to learn its wavelength, and then crack the coding.

But I replied to what I'm looking for in the other thread. sorry, dinna mean to jack, thought it was all inter-connected.

WhiteWolf

This post just got everyone Know where.