I do not sell Tamiya, Karen at AAF would be the one to answer on Tamiya sales on the east coast. For Hooben, I have sold in just over a year 64 T 55's and Elefants. Roughly 85% went to USA, the rest to Canada, UK, Italy, Switzerland, South Africa, Russia, and Ukraine.

Thanks for your very valuable input Bob.

Yes, thanks Bob. I'd think ETO is probably the best known Hooben reseller worldwide so with just 64 total sales between both models over one year's time, I rest my case. As I said earlier, no matter what you think towards market research, et al... the numbers just don't add up. At least to the point where one can make any money in this tiny niche producing plastic injected kits. Am not talking the short run resin kits made by the cottage industry.

Regarding Tamiya & their "overpriced kits" I think you can now understand why they charge such a premium for what has been released lately in their 1:16 FO line. I don't know how they amortize their R&D/tooling but I'm sure they set their pricing based on making an acceptable return for such a premium kit. In the past I spoke with Trumpeter/WSN, Italeri & others about doing several subjects & they had no interest unless I wanted to cover the investment. This goes back to 2004 when someone here wanted an accurate Panther G kit before either HL & Tamiya considered doing one.

When I last visited Heng Long a few years back with the owner of IMPACT - a few here might remember those factory photos that were posted in 2007 - they said the Tiger I was their best seller with more than 10,000 sold annually. Based on the production we witnessed that day & on other earlier occasions when I was at the factory, I have no reason to doubt their word. Again, you are comparing apples to oranges when you talk about their toys & the market segment they are targeting.

Once again, if you want to see new models get your buddies, girlfriends, wives, kids, distant relatives & anyone else you can think of to buy a kit.

well price is a major subject you can sell 10,000 HL Tigers at $100 a pop a lot easier the 1000 Elefants at $400 a pop...I just hope HL does an Elefant lol...Shipping from China is the real price killer

whole kits are a large investment. what does your market research say about conversion kits for lower hulls you have - Tiger 1 (P) for your existing Elefant. ... or developing conversions for other tanks. Out of plastic instead of Resin. There must be 3-4 differant Pz 4 variants you could do for a Tam or heng long hull. A good T34 kit would be a big plus.

Ahhhhh hope really does spring eternal!

When I see comments such as " There may be more prople into this stuff than you think.", I smile I believe the obverse
is more likely; there are probably fewer people in this hobby than you hope.

That Japanese Giant, the Mattel of the east Bandai once offered a series of 1/15 scale tanks that in their day ( early -mid 1970s)
were the cat's meow. No longer; they didn't see enough of a future in it to add anything to their line which preceded Tamiya's
by quite a bit.

I know that putting any hobby grade kit in the market is a hugely expensive project. 90% of the whiners, as they were aptly
labeled previously just don't have a clue.

Here's a 'for instance'. In the early 1990s I approached 2 companies with the small project of making a single place
injection die for a HDPE 1/10 scale Panther track link . Cost? between 15,000 and 18,000; just for the die. A permanent mold
for die cast aluminum? it started at 30k, add retractable pin to rough form track pin ways? Don't even ask. And none of these prices included ( naturally ) finding a shop to mount and shoot the die. There was no way I could even get close to cover the die cost with sales and this was in a time when 1/10 was still pretty popular.

No people, buy what's out there and smile that you have the chance. 20 years from now you'll see Hooben Elefant kits selling
for 2k on ebay.

If you want to make a difference, write a business plan for your after market conversion kits, project your sales ( use
forum feedback participation if you really believe there that many people in it ), craft a business plan and head off to the
lender of your choice to get funding.

Let us know how that works out for ya....

Jerry

Appreciate that fresh breath of reality, Jerry.

Besides the usual suspects when it comes to lending, it might not hurt to contact Sir Peter Jackson & see if he might be willing to subsidize your new endeavor.

http://www.hyperscale.com/2010/featu...erviewdw_1.htm

Allow me to disagree gently. I know of 2 EU suppliers who have sold far more than I ever will. I would estimate that between the two of them they have sold in excess of 500 Hooben tank kits of both types, perhaps more. A third is selling at least what I sell in the Hooben kits. Although I have no figures from Hooben directly, I would estimate total world wide sales of their two tank kits at around 800. Not bad for a company new to this vein, in less than 18 months.
The EU market is much more developed than the USA market for our hobby, and most hobbies. However, I would say it will be another year or more before Hooben returns a profit on their investment in tanks.
As for building British or Italian tanks, both tend to be quite 'busy', many angles, nooks, and crannies, and quite complicated drive and suspension systems, ergo very expensive to develop in model form, and more so to manufacture. Therefore, I do not expect to see either produced any time soon.

If they decide terminate the tank developement I think they are drawing a hasty conclusion. Rc tanks are a uppcoming hobby for many here in Norway. I know the market isn't as good as Rc cars, planes etc. but they should give it some time before they decide. Maybe many of us are sitting and waiting for the Maus or E-100 release? I'm not going to buy a Elephant or T-55, I want the Maus and E-100. Who is buing a Ford to get the Mercedes?

Your just not listening, why o why would a company invest more money in a tank that is already making a loss, it’s all about making money not losing it hence why even small companies making 20-40 conversion kits can’t make a living one company that springs to mind is Back Yard Armour with their E8 conversion and late Tiger I conversion made in America but not supported by American sales

I just don't know whyHooben choose to make those 2 tanks. What were they thinking?Name one battle where they did anything more than get their own crews killed.

Kursk. Italy. Berlin. India-Pakistan Wars. Jordan-Syria War. Iran-Irak War. Amongst others.

Well the T55 is one of the most numerous tanks on the battlefield in modern times and serves with many different countries hence why that was chosen, the Elefant only ever numbered 80 tank destroyers was issued in July 1943 35 were lost at Kursk they then sent 1st Company to Italy to fend of the British invasion and the other 2 companies went back to Russia were they served until early 45 when they were replaced by Jagdtiger, the last 3 were sent to Berlin, though not the most reliable of tanks once they were able to defend themselves the remaining 40 odd tanks caused a lot of damage, for some reason this tank has mystical value and every man and his dog has tried to get an Imai version for years.

To answer your question, then why build not one but two types of Sherman they weren’t called “Tommy Cooker� and “Ronson� for nothing

Never read one battle report/ accountwhere the elefant did well. I may have missed something, I have only been reading about this stuff for 40 years.....you have any links? I would love to read them.As for the t55, yup, they made a bunch of them, I can kinda see that. I think they would have sold more js2's or centoriens mk1-5's but thats just a guess. From what I have been able to gather from this hobby, many of the people like to run tanks they would like to drive in the real world. Thats why the tigers and panthers do so well, they were the biggest badest beasties on the battle field. After reading accounts of the t55 on the goland ht's, the t55 just does not do it for me...but thats jmo.

Call me what you will, but I will not purposely build or buy a model of a Russian tank unless it is to be depicted as destroyed in a diorama..

I'll give that much for the Elefant. But the others (plus the other two upcoming ... hmmm) I don't know. A Centurion, Churchill or even a Comet could have been a hit. But if you do go with a T54/55 you'll need something to oppose it with in it's time period ... right?

I will have to say, the Maus doesn't fit (like the E-100) but it's so big and bad and all!

And Green Amphibian? Don't be hatin'! It really didn't come from over there.


(Okay, back to the workbench)










~ Jeff

I agree. Two examples of producing something very few want, and have little hope of returning an investment.

This hobby is very small, and I agree with what most have said about the ROI. We are very lucky to have guys like Murphy Ma(Mato), and obviously few others who actually love tanks, and are not totally focused on the ROI..

Lets be fair and honest. The T-55 is not a bad model, but the one I received had some terrible sprues. Some parts were almost unusable. Word gets out, and problems like that can hurt sales. In a small market that is bad news.

The formula for being succesfull in this market is this.

You must have a passion for Tanks, because the reality is ,the same money invested in another project will generate a better ROI. If ROI is your only focus, you can stop reading now.
WWII and tanks with a battle history are the most sought after.

Choose a model of tank that has a chassis that can be reuissed on mulitiple releases.

M4
PZ III
PZ IV

The above chassis can be used for many variants. The running gear, and electronics can be shared reducing design and manufacturing costs.
Produce a quality item but don't go overboard. Current Heng Long quality on the plastic, running gear and electronics is fine. Remember the price point.
Careful attention to scale.


Here are some of the flaws that have hampered sales of recent tanks. Here is my review of some of the tanks I have purchased.

I'll start with my favorite.

Mato

Sherman

Transmission cover. needs to be redone to have a better scale appearance. THis could have been done better. I have redone this and there is room to have done this correctly from the get go.
Electronics. Questionable reliablitiy, no IR upgrade option.

Other then the above this is a great little tank. Throw in an RX 18, and you have many options. I doubt Mato is too upset with the sales numbers on this unit. There are a lot of them around even with these flaws..

Metal Tiger.

Needed to be equipped with an electronics package. A Rebadged RX18 would have worked.
Should have fixed the Heng Long flaws on the turret. It is in a price point where people are more demanding.

Hooben

T-55
Good design. Poor execution. Many kits were sent to market with sprues that were so badly formed, they were almost unusable. Luckily the chassis and suspension, along with the major plastic components are very good.
Questionable electronics. Are they availabe or aren't they???? A little pricey if you need to throw in Tamiya electonics. Again they would have been better off rebranding the RX 18, and using that as the electonics package and keep tthe entry price down.

Heng long

KV 1
Panther

Good tanks. Not much to complain about, and they represent a good value.

Tamiya

Not much to complain about either. (Lets' just pretend the upgunned Sherman didn't happen) I just think they should rethink their marketing strategy a bit. People are interested, and people are swimming around the bait, they just aren't biting. Tamiya needs to do something to jig the bait a bit. There MRSP is too high. Nobody buys them at that price, even the diehards think that is unreasonabe. So why hold firm to it. They are basing their price point on old economics. Stock takes up retail shelf space. A 1/16 scale tank eats up a lot of it. A retailer wants at least 40% ROR. THis markup on an item this costly is just too much for the consumer to bare. These kits sit around on shelves for years, and retailers simply don't want them. They would sooner have 6- $150 helicopters on the same shelf space so they can make their 40%. So that is what they do. Tamiya are quite aware that 1/16 scale tanks are not something that retailers and distrubutors are ordering, and that is why sales seem so slow.


All 1/16 scale manufactureres need to understand the market better. You don't need flashy box art to catch a person's eye. Clear see through packaging is a waste of time when people are buying online. Online retailers warehouse stock these things, and none of them are looking for a 40% RTR. So face the facts and listen to what the market is telling you. We want afforable quality. So what are you going to do to provide that? Loose the box art and fancy packaging. It is an unneeded expense in the market you are selling to. Realize that the majority of your 1/16 scale product will be sold though online retailers. Your big fancy boxes are not taking up valuble retail "Show space"


There are things companies can do to make there own success.

Current Heng Long quality for the base tank. IF I was Heng Long I would be talking to Darkith about coming to an agreement to incorporate his design into the next RX 18.
Reduce packaging costs. (Tamiya has the most to gain by this. Those fancy boxes, with the see through packing is not only expensive to produce, but expensive to ship as well. Total waste of resources in this market) All tanks use the same cardboard packing.( THink Amo boxes here boys. A Brown cardboard box with the tank model stenciled on it.)
Pick designs that have legs, as I mentioned above. Shemrans, PZIII,IV, with all the stug variats. The T-34, and possibly the British Cromwell(Comet) would give you the option to produce a lot of variants based of a single mechanical chassis and design.
Package them efficiently and compactly to reduce shipping costs
Develop you own line of upgrade parts for enthusists. Wheel bearings, better gears, electonics battling options, etc, need to be part of your marketing strategy. Sell a fully functioning base tank at a cost of about $275, and then provide a path for people to upgrade the heck out of it. This they will do this willingly at their leisure in a time frame they can economically manage.

It is easy to blame the market and the consumer. Far better to listen to what we are saying

Here is an example of what I am talking about

Base tank. MSRP $275

A RTR Heng Long PZ IV /Stug/ PzIII/ Stug/ Sherman and variants, Cromwell of Variant with nylon gears, and plastic track.
Shipped in a Brown Cardboard box with the words of the tank model stamped on it.
An electronic package that basically is an RX 18 with a DBC3 technology merged into it.( Making it totally Tamiya compatible)
A 2.4 GHZ receiver with four channel radio.( Spekrtum have these on their low cost Parkflyer airplanes.)

Up grade path

Wheel bearings. $50
Adjustble idlers $50
Brass gears like the new Mato Tiger 2.0 gears $80
Benedini TBS $125
Tamiya type apple. $50
Metal Tracks $80

The company that produced the above would do well in this market I think. THe prices I have used are reasonable and the technology readily availble to produce a profit. The base tank is more then the current Heng long offering, but you get more. You reduce production costs by simplifying the packaging, you broker a deal with proven Technology, Darkith and Spekrum to provide an overall better quality tank. Benedini works with the DBC3 technology and the standard hobby radio, so it is just a plug in option to give you quality sound that surpasses current Tamiya sound .
Tamiya apple is the defacto standard, but realistically they can be produced and sold with a good profit margine for less. Impact is doing it now.

If I had the time to manage a project like this that is the path I would go. You produce a good entry level product to get people into the game, and then you provide a proven upgrade path for them to take that allows them to have a fine RC tank. All in, the cost is about the same you have to pay for a Tamiya now, but if you followed the upgrade path you would end up with something better.

Heng long has proven that you need an entry level to get into this hobby. Half of us, or probably even more, wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for Heng Long. Yes I agree Heng Long is a toy, and to get it to Tamiya standard you have to spend Tamiya type dollars, but that is the reality path that a large portion of this market take. So someone needs to see this reality and produce a product that fits the need.

Tamiya is not doing it with their expensive all or nothing approach, and Heng Long isn't with there Toy tank approach. Instead you have a bunch of dedicated tankers and cottage industries all working alone to produce products we all want and need. However this is costly and inefficient. There is a better way.

Like I said the reliability of the Elefant was horrendous, 30 odd lost at Kursk were not just down to infantry some were lost as a result of mechanical failure and mines don’t forget at the battle of Kursk alone the Russians claimed to have destroyed over 1200 Tigers, this is more than they built let alone had at the time of the 15 sent to Italy most were lost as a result of mechanical breakdown not through combat.
The only books to read on Elefant are
“Combat history of Schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 653�
“Combat history of Schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 654�
Unfortunately most accounts of this tank that you will have read over the last 40 years will have been propaganda based and until recently most thought the remainder were lost in Italy which is just not true, both these books have over 1000 pictures of Elefant and more than 90% have never been seen outside the books.
Sorry I don’t do websites as most are exaggerated or just wrong, after 40 years reading I thought you would know that

I could be wrong, but I think the point is more about the Maus and the E 100 or whatever it was goign to be called. Those have marketing failure written all over them.

The Elephant and the T-55 I understand. iF Hooben improved their quality control, and get some electronics worked out, people would buy with confidence. So before blaming the consumers they need to look at their product a bit closer.

I would buy a e100 in a hartbeat as long as it came in under a grand.I was never a fan of the maus, looks like it would fall over a lot on the battle field like a sherman*cough *cough*.

When all Is said and done, I think hl is going to own this hobby in a couple years. They seem to be lissening to the hobby people. Look at a tiger one and then look at a panther G or king tiger. Form things like getting the turret mounted correctly to not molding the tools into the hull. Heck, the kt even has extra holes so you can clock the springs to change ride hight or compensat for extra weight.

Tamiya is a huge company with a well established distributer network and brand presence in the market. To pick up on your point Dan, they don't need to shift a lot of their big box tanks - the big box is there to scream "We are Tamiya, we are bigger and better than anyone else" down from its perch on the top shelf, just the same as their 1/350 scale Battleships and Aircraft Carrier models do (How many 1/350 scale Nimitz's do you reckon they shift per year, and where do their owners store them...!? [X(] ). The motor industry calls that a 'Halo Model', think Dodge Viper or Audi RS8 here - both cost a ton of money to develop and go racing with, and neither of them is going to contribute much to the bottom lines of their respective companies in unit sales...

Heng Long on the other hand are in the business of selling cheap toys by the container load. By starting out with essentially a dumbed down, knock off of a Tamiya Tiger that retailed for around $50, they were able to (relatively cheaply) bring out something that looked 'OK' to the casual buyer when viewed on a website such as ebay, and could be bundled with a load of other r/c toys as a single shipment to the retailer. By starting out at the low end they managed to grow up to where they are today and still (presumably) command the same margins for a much better product.

Compared with this, its hardly surprising that Mato and Hooben aren't shifting much product. The Sherman is more expensive than a HL for those who are just looking for a toy, and the guys looking for a large scale kit to build are going to spring for the Tamiya because they have the brand recognition. (You can probably also argue that Heng Long have a degree of brand recognition these days, as a google search will likely bring up more positive posts than negative ones...). I heard recently that WSN have quit making their T34 and Tiger, I would have to assume these same reasons played a part in that decision.

I wish Hooben and Mato the best of luck, but they have a mountain to climb to get to the point where they can command the sales needed to justify further products - until they start reaching people outside of the (globally tiny) R/C Tank community, they aren't going to be successful. It really doesn't matter what they sell, if few people have heard of them or know enough about them to consider them against the alternatives.

Martin

Your final point is well noted. You have to be known to be sold.

For example, I heard that Hollywood movies spend almost as much on marketing the moving as making it. So the value of exposure to the marketplace cannot be undervalued.

If Tamiya or Heng Long considered the sales model I suggested then I think it would be possible to make it a reality. For a starting company the money required to develop that exposure would probably do them in. Mato has a chance because of the hugh volume they sell worldwide, and their position in the market place. But as a tank hobbiest, I think we need to hope HL or Tamiya read the market place a little better to really get this going. IF they continue with their current approach we will end up right where we are today. Diehard enthusists that are willing to spend $700-1000 for a IR battle ready tank. To grow the hobby further you need to appeal to the other guys. Give a low cost entry tank with a good supply of easy to add upgrades.

No doubt there are guys who never even consider this hobby because of the cost of a Tamiya, and those that have left because of the Heng Long. Not everyone finds this forum. How many of us can say they would still be in this hobby if it wasn't for this forum others like it?Without this forum, my first blown board would have been an end to my RC tank experience. So it is quite concievable for evey guy who finds a forum there are 10 who don't, and these ten throw their toy tank in the garbage and walk away. Those are the guys who Tamiya and Heng Long need to market to now. GIve them a decent hobby quality tank with a clear upgrade path, and they will stay in the hobby for the benefit of all.

The facts are

Many people looking for a hobby diversion consider Tamiya too expensive, and it never gets as popular as it needs to be to make Tamiya notice the opportunity of 1/16 scale tanks. People who have bought Heng Long and have had a problem throw it away and are done with tanking, and their next purchase is a Toy Helicopter, and then a Toy car, and then a Toy Flying fish. This demonstrates the disposal income is out there in $150 increments. As a Tank enthusist we need someone to understand this and produce a Toy that has that clear path to a quality lifelong hobby commitment. Heng Long is almost there, thanks to the third party suppliers, and internet forums. Instead of counting on this though they need to actively grab the ball and run with it. Tamiya obviously has the means and the exposure to use this approach to grow the interest in the hobby if they wanted. Maybe like Martin says though the whole 1/16 RC tank line is just a banner they use to promote their other quality products.

Yeah, but there are more people out there with a bigger disposable income than you think. Their fun factor is more important than building that barn the little lady wants. So, Tamiya isn't that far out of reach as you think and most don't want to mess with a cheap product, nor really know most of it's potential either. []










~ Jeff

I would question that assertion to be honest, Dan (but not because I want an argument about it ).

Other than Mato's operation in Canada, and small time guys like Phil who found out about them because they were into the hobby already, who stocks the Sherman in North America? Certainly not the big online toy sellers that Google links to like Raidentech, etc.
The same is true for the UK, only Tankzone out of Googles top 10 links have them - and its a good 50 pounds more than the equivalent spec HL, so he's not going to shift too many to the casual buyer...

From what I can see, Mato really shot themselves in the foot by not having this made by Heng Long under their brand and sold thru their channels - we are still going to buy our tanks thru our favourite retailers because of the service they offer so Mato aren't going to loose too much themselves, but by not selling a product that the 'pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap' crowd (who can shift them by the container load) as well they have lost a lot of 'toy' sales that would have paid off the investment much faster.

This is by design. Mato wanted complete control of the product. I know this for a fact. They didn't want to deal with the Raidenetechs of the world. Instead they wanted Tank knowledgeable people to deal them. I think this has paid off. With all that has been wrong with them , nobody is really out bad mouthing them. Why???? Because problems have been dealt with to the satisfaction of the customers. Mato could never have ensured that by dealing with big online peddlers. Instead of shooting themselves in the foot, they actually demonstrated they care about what they are selling and their customer as much as making a profit.