torpedochief

Guys,

I found this another site. This is interesting to say the least!

Don




I run a hobby shop here in Michigan and an older gentleman wandered in today looking for a model of a Tiger I. He didn't want to build a kit but was very interested in the 1/16th Tiger I by Tamiya (until I showed him the price tag). After chatting with him a bit I asked what he knew about Tigers and he announced that he had been in command of the 2 companies of Tigers that had fought at Kasserine pass! His name is (Maj) Gerd Lindemann, which sounded very familiar. I asked and he said "Oh you've probably heard of my uncle, Kapitan zur Zee Lindemann, Captain of the Bismarck." Long story short, he told a couple of stories and answered some questions and commissioned me to build a model of his Tiger I ausf E for his mantel. He said he would bring in some photos for reference and told me that if I wanted to talk history I should drop by.
He is currently associated with a Military museum project we have going out at our Airport and lives locally. He seems very freindly and more than willing to talk about the war. (Possibly because he was captured with Schwere Panzerabteilung 501 on May 12 1943, so he missed Russia and all the associated horrors of the Ostfront.)

Interestingly, he said that their Tigers came from the factory not in panzer grey (which is what I expected), and not in Afrika Mustard , but rather in a slightly darker brown (I have the RAL number somewhere...) over which he had his crews spray a dark grey blotch pattern.

The man under the small arrow is Maj Lindemann. The Officer in the back with the Binocs is Dr. Franz, Rommels interpreter, and I'm sure you will all recognize the figure in the forground.

Ex_Pat_Tanker

link please?

lthump

[X(] THAT KIND OF INFORMATION IS PRICELESS. Once he's gone so will that bit of info unless it's preserved.That could help make sense of b/w photo's on which too much colour information is based. So next time you see him "ve hav vays of making you talk"Ja [ schnapps perhaps]

thomasjohnmurphy

Too funny. I just finished this Tiger literally a few minutes ago. I wonder if it was his tank? (lol)

Ex_Pat_Tanker

The guy has to be 90 at least. My 90 yo Grandmother can bearly tell me from my father, much less give a detailed description of her uniform and the vehicles in her unit during her time in the ATS in WW2.
I've seen some websites claim that it's a documented fact that the human eye's perception of colour changes over time. Certainly Tigers in Tunisia vary from the strict interpretation of the RAL colours as defined in the official colour scheme directives, to olive green from faded photo's (which may or may not be excused by plundered American paint stores), and anywhere in between.

Sorry to pour cold water on your story, but if you are a 90 yo living in retirement in the US, I doubt that you'd have enough disposable income to walk into a store and comission a custom Tamiya build (even if you were lucky enough to be on the Union pension gravey train...)

I'm in Michigan, who is the guy, where is he? Link to interview please?

chinito_03

a link and a picture would help...

well, i am an ER nurse here in TX.. gt alot of WWII veteran patients ever since and most of them are from pacfic theatre and only 5 out of 12 are from european theatre and one of them is a stff of the great gen paton. 2 days ago i had a patient that came into the ER sent by hs dr for evaluation and a former tank destroyer pilot from USSR.. asked em sooo many questions after my shift ends.. i was asking em too many questions about their tanks but forgot to ask em aboutt what kind of plane is he piloting... 1 sortie before the battle kurks, he told me there are tigers that are painted into dark green..
but to make it short it is soo wonderful to talk to a WWII veteran. and the reason why he moved here in the US is that he was sht down by ME109 and became a POW and sent to a labor cam in western gemany and was leverated by the US.
also he told me, he doesnt hate german soldiers "because they are just like me following orders from their superiors"... "i really like their machines (planes and tanks) for they are well built especially the ME109 and most of my comrades told me the tigers are really way ahead of their time"
that was some of hs statement.
i wont mention hs full for hs own prvacy. he is 91 yrs old 6ft tall mrrd to a WWII US army nurse. a really nice wll hearted elderly person.

also there is one US ARMY Capt. told me about the tiger tanks. during their encounter in france, one tiger fired a sht and the 88mm shell went thru a building and still took down a sherman.. thats the reason why i shifted my hobby from japanese anime robot model kits to WWII german Tanks... that was a year ago.

daryl

Ex_Pat_Tanker

Make the most of guys like that - I loved to hear the war storey's my grandfathers / grandmothers and great Uncle/Aunt's told as I was growing up - even tho they may seem mundane to most people - no war hero's or special forces tales of daring do, just tales of regular soldiers trying to stay alive and get home to their families.... Now both of my grandfathers and one Grandmother are gone, as are several great Aunts and Uncle's - and my closest great uncle has Altzimers and all that entails... so no more tales [&o][]

To all of you who to have a chance to talk to a Veteran - do it while you can!!!

Mart

JB_DK

Hi all...

i have also read that story...i don´t know if it is from the same site Dons got it but here is a link, its a very interested story....

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147572

killick64

GREAT LINK!! I just couldn't stop reading....!!

Dunno about the "age" thing. The Russian Tankers that Drabkin and Sheremet interviewed for their T-34 Book were all in their 80's and 90's (you were right, Eugene, it IS good !!) and Evgeny Bessonov was probably about 85 himself when he published his "Tank Rider: Into the Reich with the Red Army."

Again, many thanks for that Link!

rivetcounter

I became aware of this story some month's ago http://www.twenot-forums.nl/viewtopic.php?t=17412 on a Dutch site there was no mention of 1/16 but the owner of the shop did build a 1/35 scale tank for him complete with full interior I also don't think the shop was in the US

swathdiver

I read about this a couple of years ago. The more I studied the 501st, the more suspect I became of this fellows recollections. The hobby shop is in Michigan and the original poster (the guy who interviewed and built the tanks) has a newer thread at www.tiif.de.

The parts that made the needle of my BS meter jump was his statements about driving other tanks in other units then taking over 501st Tigers in Tunisia. The 501st was an independant unit loosely attached to the 10th Panzer Division. In February they were integrated into the 7th and 8th Companies of the 7th Panzer Regiment (armor unit of 10 pz.div.). It would seem unlikely to me that this fellow would transfer into a Tiger unit of the 5th Panzer Armee when he was previously working with Rommell attached to DAK, two completely different units. Not to mention the advanced and special training Tiger crews received.

I've also seen no mention of him in period era reports having anything to do with Tigers and the 501st. If I'm wrong or have forgotten something (Lord knows I forget a lot!), I'll readily admit my error.


The 501 Tigers were painted at the factory in RAL8000 or RAL 8020. 8020 was the color ordered to be used at the time they were constructed until supplies of the former were used up. IMO, they WERE painted in RAL 8020 with many of the tanks getting the disruptive pattern RAL 7027 which appears greenish grey in the sun. Several PZIIIs, the 112 and 142 were definitely painted with 2 colors judging from period photos. The debate is over which colors were used and statements that the 1 Kompanie tanks were painted green with Italian Air Force stocks of paint before they shipped over to Tunisia.

Color side view photos of the upturned 142 Tiger seem to support the 8020/7027 paint scheme, while rear view photographs support 8000 and photos of the front with the GI setting the charges support something much darker then 8020, possibly 7008 or just 5 months of dust, dirt and mud after continuous action! What are your thoughts?

rivetcounter

I find it strange that a shop owner in the US would post his story on a Dutch site you would have thought that it would have shown up first on a US site

Over on the UKTC forum we recently had a guy from Holland telling rather tall stories about his grand father commanding a Panther with over 100 kills to his name and a Knight's cross precipitant trouble is there is no record of this commander, they do come out of the woodwork at times believing there own made up stories

chinito_03

so dowly is the the store owner.., he just found the thread from another forum.... hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

swathdiver

I'm pretty sure I first read about this in early 2007 on an English site. I saved the original webpages on the drives that are now kaput and a google doesn't turn up the original source anymore. I see the reposts from late 2008 and early '09.

To correct my earlier statement, another fellow, not the hobby shop guy, talked to Lindemann on Tigers In Focus.

Rereading the story again, the meter goes up some more, no DAK palms on Tigers as they were with the 5th Panzer Armee. Black with white outline numbers came after integration with 7 PR and the tanks did not retain their original numbers. 111 is a strong candidate as the unidentified Tiger blown up about 100 yards or so away from the 823, 833 Tigers at Beja.

angusx

Here's another link to a Dutch site with this tallish tale :

[link=http://www.stiwotforum.nl/viewtopic.php?t=7948&sid=6ebf87066176a7b2b08c5e5d2188adeb]Tiger Talk[/link]

It's even earlier (August 2007) than the Twenot-forums one (September 2008)

rivetcounter

Interesting as he is also into online games in a big way http://www.dutchd.nl/news.php the nut we had on UKTC was also into his games so much so he believed they where true.

OK so there is a picture of an elderly gentleman posted what age do you think he is? our hero in 1943 was lets say 20 as he was an officer so I doubt that he would be any younger more likely older 64 years latter 2007 he would be 84+ I cant understand why he would walk into a model shop wanting a model of a Tiger especially as he has had 64 years to get as many as he likes not to mention the possible cold reception he would get I'm surprised that our model shop owner didn't pick up on his German accent as he wouldn't have lost it completely and the main guys over on TIIF didn't even bother to get involved in the conversation and they are obsessed with Tigers so this leads me to think that this story is far fetched

swathdiver

This fellow could be embellishing his war record. He might have been a tanker, could even be the fat guy in the photos with the Desert Fox, but the facts don't seem to add up. Reminds me of the guys who served their country in uniform and make claims to being Navy SEALs or having been awarded the CMH. There's nothing wrong with being a cook or clerk, sure the jobs are not as glamorous or dangerous, but they're vital to keeping the guys at the front supplied with beans, bullets and gas.

angusx

I also notice in the English version of this yarn, the carryover of spelling from the Dutch site. For the Bismarck uncle, should be Kapitän zur See (NOT Zee, which is Dutch). Mind you, the Dutch version calls him Kapitein te Zee (should be, ter NOT te, I believe).

Anyway, I think this is all part of the continuing international plot to give the impression that Tamiyas are too expensive

killick64

Hmmm...Lindemann also says the LRDG made life miserable by blowing up German stuff; wasn't that the job of the SAS?

Ex_Pat_Tanker

nope, the LRDG pre-dated the SAS - some of their members founded the 22nd Regt. If you can get your hands on the book "Who Dares Wins" it covers the early history of David Stirling, how he came to form the regt and their early exploits.

Ex_Pat_Tanker

big hit on the BS Meter here: Officers don't drive tanks, especially German ones - thats below the status of a Major for sure... I work for an Austrian Company with Germans and Austrians - they are a very hierarchical people (altho my Austrian friends will kill me for lumping them in with Germans if they ever read this ) An officer might drive a tank around the compound just for fun, but no way would they do that regularly or in combat. A Major would probably be too senior to even be in a combat tank - more likely following behind in a sdkfz 250 radio vehicle...?

To be come an officer in the Whermacht you had to get to the senior NCO level, and then you'd get shipped back to Germany for officer training (ok thats a generalisation, but no way can I believe you could go from tank driver to Major in the space of the desert campaign...)
Also, given the breakdown rate of the tigers and the crew survival rate (vs allied tanks) I can't imagine that the 501st and 504th were ever short of crew members - their tanks broke down regularly and their crews usually managed to bail out ok if hit.
Plus I'm lead to believe that the tiger crews were specially selected and trained as the elite - again, how does somebody who has never been thru the training get to drive a tiger when they had more available crew members than serviceable tanks...?

Something here smells bad... and its not just me [&:]
Mart

chinito_03

i think enable for you to be a crew member of a tiger tank you'll be udegoing seme training and you'll be a crew member of a low class tank 1st (i.e panzer Mk II, panzer Mk III)
correct me if am wrong..

daryl

Ex_Pat_Tanker

Which is my whole point - you'd have been trained in the Panzerschule back in Germany, and only then become an officer in order to achive the rank of Major in the 501 or 504- not been a lowly tank driver in the desert battles of 1941/1942, and then suddenly become a Major by the end of 1942 - Not even the likes of Michael Wittmann got promoted that quickly.