RE: TO ALL INTERESTED in the Subject...
 

As we get in to the summer, we will write up the preliminary ROE, Rules of Engagement. These will cover speeds, emitters and receivers, receiver obstructions, etc. We will try to cover all possibilities, but of course there will always be some problems. We will also cover the actual Rules of Engagement as far as the combat competitions. Basically, the 'One Meter Rule' will be in effect, in other words try to stay at least one meter away from your opponent. Unintentional collisions can happen in the heat of combat, but any deliberate collision or contact, as happened to me at Danville back in '03. will generate a warning from the Battle Master. Second deliberate collision will result in removal from combat competitions at least for that day, and a driving instruction instruction course.

As for the speeds of some tanks built stock, all participants will have plenty of time to bring their tanks up to rules qualifications. I will publish a rough speed chart soon, taking posted tank speeds from several historical sights and averaging them out. Maximum allowed speeds will be for 'on road' speeds. My own tanks are generally set for 'off road' speeds, which is a max of 20 KPH or 12 MPH. We all know that most combat was off road, and regardless of how fast a tank will run up a paved road, off road you got to recon the AO and know what's there, and still one can't go bucketing across hill and dale at max speed without the danger of dumping your tank in to a ditch or hole somewhere.

There are many ways to slow a tank to prototypical speeds, some cheap, some not so cheap. However, with just about a full year to do this, I would think we can all pretty much get set up by June 2012.

And Jerry, the idea of the muzzle flash is to know when your opponent fires. You would be surprised at how this becomes ingrained in your mind as you get in to combat. In the back of your mind you immediately start counting when your opponent fires, and the 'reload time' gives you a few seconds to maneuver against him...that's assuming he doesn't have support with him. That's also another reason why the tank will have his battle system set to the norm, in other words a Tiger, KT, JT, or KV MUST be set at heavy with a 9 second reload.

Sev

RE: TO ALL INTERESTED in the Subject...
 

After publishing them of course you might receive additional notes about unforeseen cases to integrate the rules. There are several clubs out there which do have experience not only with Tamiya's, but also with El-mod and DBC systems, and they have experience of years which go beyond a single event of misfire or bad receival in sunlight.
With contributions coming from such clubs from all over the world, the RoE will become a truly omnicomprehensive document.

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Thanks Bob, the few times I tried my hand at combat I've usually tried to get to cover when hit and watch out for flanking tanks who are ready to deliver another shot. Makes sense having the muzzle light. I'll have to bore out my PzKw II barrel to be able to have a micro led in there. If I make the barrel itself 1 conductor all I need worry about is one hair thin wire....

Jerry

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yes i like that to , to consider the heavyness of the real tanks, you can't blow up a JT with a panzer III no way

that's tankbattle fighting like the real ones

RE: TO ALL INTERESTED in the Subject...
 

There will be a lot of input from the tankers figured in to the ROE, you can be sure. When all is finished on the ROE, I hope to have it a simple but comprehensive document for tank competitions.
Sev

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Guys,
any updates you have?

Any news from UK RC tankers or our French colleagues?</p>

RE: TO ALL INTERESTED in the Subject...
 

There seems little interest in the UK club in battling (or constructing tanks to a standard that would pass inspection at Danville), so I wouldn't count on their participation. If I'm able to make it over on my own I will.

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Thanks for input, noted. We will kep you posted on the subject progress.</p>

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Hey Mart,

What is so hard about meeting those standards? And if your club does not meet those standards what are you guys doing? All the battle systems I sell or battle tanks I build meet their standards, it just the way I have always done it. The speed chart at Danville is not that hard to pass, just limit your trim if your too fast,, maybe I am missing some let me know??

Thanks,

Phil

The Blitz

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Hey Phil,

yeah, I know - I'm a little frustrated to say the least. Its not hard to pass at Danville if you build it out of the box, the only tank I had to adjust there was the KV2A, and that was only because the thing ran like a Sloth on Valium in real life...

Some of the guys here seem to see the scale speed requirement as an elitist thing that requires $$$ spending - despite my protests that its just to stop people taking the proverbial by fitting 540's in KingTigers - and then there are a couple of others that decided to get 'clever' and hide their battle units in the tank (or use modified HBU's) - at least a few of those won't take hits reliably unless you literally shove your muzzle brake into their apple...

The trouble is that when the UK club get together, one or 2 people tend to show off their latest toys and everyone else clusters around. If we do run the tanks, its just a free for all "drive around and shoot the closest guy" thing. And don't get me started on how hard it is to get guys to actually pick up their tanks and go battle them [:@]

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I was at Munster last weekend for Pfingsten, I had a chat with the club sectary he said you would have to speak to the museum but didn’t see why not, at the rear of the museum there is a very large area aprox 15 x 70 meters along with a lake and river at one end and it may be possible to dig further obstacle’s though it would not be possible to combine the event on Pfingsten, it would be later or earlier, the attraction is obvious IF the museum allows such an event, Munster is located in northern Germany south of Hamburg but don’t mix it with Münster which is 200km away

RE: TO ALL INTERESTED in the Subject...
 

OK, lets see if we can get some commo with the Munster people. Do you have a contact there?

Also, I am posting the ROE, Rules of Engagement, for all to see. This is a draft and open for discussion. We can tweak it, but we don't really want to get in to extreme detail. Simple speed charts will follow.

1. Tanks should be of either 1/16 or 1/15 scale.

2. Since the Tamiya Battle System is the standard of the hobby, all battle systems used in a combat competition meet will be either Tamiya Battle System or a Tamiya Battle System compatible system. Any non-Tamiya Battle System must be capable of both receiving and giving hits from a Tamiya Battle System.

3.A vehicle inspection will be performed before any meet, with an individual inspection sheet for each tank, listing the owner, the type and make of tank, the tank number if so painted, and the various inspections with a pass/fail column for each inspection.

3a. A speed test on a flat, straight course of 7.62m length using a timer. The tank will be run at full speed thru the test course and the scale speed of the tank will be noted on the inspection form. A tank speed chart is included with these rules, defining the historical speed of the tank both on and off road. Any tank coming to meets for the first time will be allowed to participate in all competitions regardless of results of the speed test. However, at the next meet the tank must meet the speed regulations in the speed chart. An inspector will check the competitors radio before the speed test. All adjustment pots on the radio must be set at neutral to assure a proper speed test. If during a Competiton Event the motors or transmissions of a tank are replaced or repaired for any reason, the tank must then be re-inspected for proper speed.

3b. A Battle System function test will be performed. All battle systems used on any tanks in the combat competition must be Tamiya Battle System compatable. The test will consist of 4 test shots administered from a distance of 5m on four quadrants, 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees. The tank being inspected must take a hit from each quadrant, the exception being tanks adjudged as having Invulnerable Front Armor. hereafter referred to as IFA, in that the tank was not penetrated from the front in actual combat. These tanks include the turrets of the King Tiger, both Porsche and Henschel variants, the Jagdtiger, and the JS2. Masking of the Tamiya Battle System for these IFA tanks will be discussed in a later paragraph.

After the hit test, the tank will be reset to zero hits, and the number of shots needed to kill the tank will be administered and recorded on the inspection sheet. A separate data sheet listing the kill settings for the tanks will be attached to these rules. The tank being inspected must be set to it's proper kill setting, Light, Medium, or Heavy, to participate in the competitions. Any modification of the tank's settings after the inspection will lead to removal of that tank from the Battle Competitions for the meet.

3c. Installation of Tamiya Battle System receivers and emitters. All receivers for battle systems must be mounted in their correct direction in accordance with the manufacturers instructions. The allowed height of any mounted receiver for a battle system can be at or above the height specified by the manufactures installation instructions, or lowered. Any lowered receiver must be mounted in the correct installation quadrant, and also must have the correct number of filter fins as supplied by the manufacturer. The receiver if lowered must clear the top of the cupola or surface where it is mounted by at least 3mm. Lowering the receiver assembly is strictly a cosmetic modification and in no way affects the receiver's ability to record hits. No hatches, figures, stowage, or other articles can be around the receiver to block a competitors shot. The receiver must be mounted so the fins on the unit are horizontal to the ground, in other words the receiver can not be mounted at any angle, and the number of fins on the receiver as delivered by the manufacturer must be present on the installed unit. Receivers must be mounted on a stable mount to prevent movement in driving and combat.

All receivers mounted in a turreted AFV must be mounted on the top of the turret. For non-turreted vehicles such as the Jagdpanther, Jagdtiger, Soviet SU, Elefant, and German Stug series, the receiver must be mounted on top of the fighting compartment. All receivers must be mounted above or parallel with the emitter of the battle system.

The emitter must be mounted on the front of the turret or fighting compartment and move with the direction of the main gun, both elevation and traverse. Mounting of emitters is at the tanker's discretion, but must be mounted at a level below the lowest fin of the receiver system. The maximum diameter of the emitter installation tube is 6mm, and minimum depth of the emitter in it's mount tube is 9mm from the crown of the emitter element to the outer edge of the emitter tube.

3d. Painting of the battle system receiver is allowed, however the receiver must be disassembled to do so. Fins, top, and the receiver case below the lowest fin can be painted. Under no circumstances can the area of the receiver behind the fins be painted or contaminated in any way. After painting, the receiver must be reassembled in the factory configuration, all fins, mirrors, and screws must be returned to their factory location.

3e. Radio frequencies of each tank will be noted on the inspection sheet and a Frequency Board set up near the inspection area. It is desirable to have at least two frequencies available for each of your tanks. Two tanks of the same frequency can not operate on the same field. Tanks in the actual competitions must have different frequencies to prevent interference with their respective radios. During inspections and competitions, all tankers not involved in the actual inspection or competition shall have their radios and tanks switched off.

4. Tank Combat Compteition. Tanks for combat competitions will be divided in to teams of two to four tanks. These teams will choose a commander for the event.

To begin a combat competition, the respective teams will place their tanks at opposite sides of the combat area. All tanks and radios will be turned off.

A Battle Master and if possible one or two Monitors will be asigned to oversee the event. The Battle Master is in control of the competiton event. The Monitors are to ensure that all rules of combat and fair play are observed. The Monitors can report a tanker to the Battle Master if said tanker is not following the rules or intentionally contacts another tank with his tank. The Battle Master can then, at his discretion, give a warning to the tanker, or order the tank off the field for either that battle competiton or for the day.

At the Battle Master's command, radios are turned on.
At the Battle Master's command, all tanks are then turned on.
At the Battle Master's command, the battle competition will start.
The battle competition will continue until all tanks on one team are knocked out.

4a. When participating in a battle competition, if your tank is knocked out, you must immediately switch off your radio. The knocked out tank will stay on the battlefield until the competition is finished. A tanker can not turn his radio back on during the competiton.

4b. At no time during or after the event will there be intentional contact between two tanks. During combat, it is desired to stay at least 1m away from other tanks.

4c. Tankers may not enter the battle area during battle. All control of the tanks is done from the perimeter of the battle area. The exception of this rule is if your tank becomes uncontrolable, at which time you may go on to the battlefield to retrieve your tank. If a retrieval is necessary, then that tank is considered to have been knocked out and can not be put back in service for that battle. If possible a Monitor will retrieve an out of control tank. If no Monitor is available, then the tank owner may enter the battle are to retrieve his tank and take it off the field, taking care not to interfere with other tanks on the field. .

If a tank suffers a mechanical failure such as a thrown track or a jammed turret, the tanker can not enter the battlefield to repair the failure nor can he drive the tank to his position to repair the tank. The tank can continue to fight and if possible move, but it must not be touched in any way. If the tanker considers the failure to be possibly damaging to his tank, he may, at his option, turn off his radio and inform his team mates that his tank is knocked out.



On the possibility of a 'lowered apple', the rules clearly state how it's to be done. After extensive experiments and testing over the last 6 years or so, I have determined that a lowered apple to the specs in these ROE offers no advantage what so ever, it is strictly a cosmetic deal. That being said, nothing is engraved in stone here, so lets have some comments when you lads have the time.

Sev

RE: TO ALL INTERESTED in the Subject...
 

Pretty reasonable rules, but IFA for turretted tanks is overpowered: King Tiger and IS2 should be excluded from such.

A direct hit of a HE shell on turrets of such tanks might damage them (the rotation ring at least) and/or injure the crew with the slam,even without penetration, don't you think so?

RE: TO ALL INTERESTED in the Subject...
 

could you specify?
HE - Henschel???

And still we are on game-battle field...

One more thing to STRESSON.
Personally I like the idea of somebody talked over in previous posts - the main idea and concept will be to get all teams togetrher, demo their models, communicate, share the experience and battle. This will be the FORUMconcept of the whole event.

RE: TO ALL INTERESTED in the Subject...
 

Uh, sorry, playing too much World of tanks makes me talk by acronyms

HE = High Explosive, as AP stands for Armor Piercing, HEAT for High Explosive Anti Tank, etc.


IFA, as stated above, means Impenetrable Front Armour

Sometimes a HE shell from a howitzer or a similar large caliber would tear a turret apart, damage the turret rotation mechanism or other equipments, or kill, injure or incapacitate the crew inside an enmy tank without penetrating the armor.

Anyway, this is to justify 'historically' the choice to not allow a tank with turret to play with the shielded front side of the IR receiver.

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OK, we can eliminate those two from IFA, or perhaps allow 2 of a 4 member time, but the opposition has to have a 6 or 8 member team. Your thoughts?

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Still it is not clear why? Could I ask you to explain in more details?
Thanks.

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Hal, i meant that King Tiger and IS2 should be excluded from having invincible front armor (i.e. TBU apple shielded from frontal hits).
Don't you agree?

About team blancing, our tank club has a way to evaluate the 'strenght' of a team by assigning 'strenght points' to each vehicle in the team itself.

The sum of all strenght points give the total strenght of a team, which must be on par, meaning having a maximum acceptable difference of 3 in strenght.

The strenght point we adopt are as follows:

Light tank: 3 pts
Medium tank: 4 pts
Heavy tank: 6 pts
Tank with IFA: 12 pts


So if TEAM RED is 1 light + 2 medium + 1 heavy (17 total strenght points), and TEAM GREEN is 1 light + 3 mediums (15 strenght points) the teams are still considered balanced (difference in strenght is 2).

Same if TEAM GREEN is 3 heavies (18 strenght points).

With this evaluation, 3 mediums + 1 heavy are perfectly equal (18 STR points) to 3 heavies.

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Not always the Tiger I an KT's were pretty strong, no one get much chance to get close to the tanks in battlefield. A KT can place a Hit on 3000m no sherman or pershing were able to give reaction on that distance

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if you want to hold a tankbattle i find it must like in the real, heavy tanks have some pro's but also contra's their speed ... that's my opinion ... just like serv's jagdtiger isalmost untouchable on the tankbattle it was so in real too, without airpower the power of the german panzers was awesome, evenso with their defects they were the kings on the battlefield in some ways

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oh, yes... this is true... this could be applicable only to jt, beastkillerand several spg-s...

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no way that's the fun on it, tankbattle is fun if it is hold in real situation, real strenght of the tanks, everybody can buy a big killer, i bought my 5KT's because i love the power of the KTbeasts excluding the frontal strenght is not the way to do, you must use tanktactics to overwhelm this giant ... that's the way it was in real but also in miniature

would it not be silly to see a Pzkfz III outclassing a King Tiger and kill it? in real he even could touch it on 2m away from it

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jsut adding some words to what I have metioned before...
Let's assume what Borealis says in the game go-show perception... what I mean (a certain proposal) let's make all tanks (with turrets rorated) be possible "destroyed" according to their heaviness...

Stil a game is a game... In my opinion (agree with karel) RCTankers Teams must show their tactics mastership and battle activity coordination first of all...

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Well, I would rather abandon the parallel between historical characteristics and our RC models, since there is nothing in the Tamiya battle system which simulates what was reality.

So a panzer III killing a KT is as real as having to hit 9 times an enemy tank before destroying it, and with all hits damaging just his engine.

The Tamiya battle system is a GAME, not a simulation at all!

The EL-mod advanced CSI is something simulating more real conditions, with damages to turret, single tracks, and one-hit kill chance.

But you still miss the gun vs armor penetration simulation.

RE: TO ALL INTERESTED in the Subject...
 

t's not a game, it's a battle, we are not children, what's the fun without real spec and tactics