New Hangar 9 P-51 60cc
06-04-2017, 12:16 AM
#1528
My TF P-51B takes off at 27 mph and lands at 33mph. Speed needs to be at least 5-8mph above stall speed. If it is stalled it will drop the left wing and dive in. High speed turns need to be low 'G' to prevent an accelerated stall. If stalled below 150 feet recovery is difficult. Landings with full flaps need 40-45% power with full flaps. It does not glide far deadstick, lowering gear and flaps will stop it, no further glide.
The H9 Mustang will lift off at a fast taxi if not held down, the tail does not need to come up to fly off. In flight stalls must be forced (hold the nose up at idle power), recovery is possible with a loss of only 30 feet. High 'g' turns are not a problem. If flown below stall speed it will lower its nose and fly down wings level until power is added, recovery is instant. It will land at walking speed with a little wind down the runway.
The H9 Mustang will lift off at a fast taxi if not held down, the tail does not need to come up to fly off. In flight stalls must be forced (hold the nose up at idle power), recovery is possible with a loss of only 30 feet. High 'g' turns are not a problem. If flown below stall speed it will lower its nose and fly down wings level until power is added, recovery is instant. It will land at walking speed with a little wind down the runway.
06-04-2017, 04:59 AM
#1529
My Feedback: (48)
My TF P-51B takes off at 27 mph and lands at 33mph. Speed needs to be at least 5-8mph above stall speed. If it is stalled it will drop the left wing and dive in. High speed turns need to be low 'G' to prevent an accelerated stall. If stalled below 150 feet recovery is difficult. Landings with full flaps need 40-45% power with full flaps. It does not glide far deadstick, lowering gear and flaps will stop it, no further glide.
The H9 Mustang will lift off at a fast taxi if not held down, the tail does not need to come up to fly off. In flight stalls must be forced (hold the nose up at idle power), recovery is possible with a loss of only 30 feet. High 'g' turns are not a problem. If flown below stall speed it will lower its nose and fly down wings level until power is added, recovery is instant. It will land at walking speed with a little wind down the runway.
The H9 Mustang will lift off at a fast taxi if not held down, the tail does not need to come up to fly off. In flight stalls must be forced (hold the nose up at idle power), recovery is possible with a loss of only 30 feet. High 'g' turns are not a problem. If flown below stall speed it will lower its nose and fly down wings level until power is added, recovery is instant. It will land at walking speed with a little wind down the runway.
06-04-2017, 07:42 AM
#1530
Here is my radio install. Working on fitting the lower cowl over the OS 60GT now. After that is done I can install the center wing section and began the process of getting the outer wing panels. I hope that doesn't turn out to be too big of an ordeal!!
06-04-2017, 06:47 PM
#1531
I forgot to mention a deadstick that happened to my #2 plane, the engine stopped as it entered the downwind from a military break. The flaps were in the takeoff position, (about 3/8 inch down, 33% up elevator trim). At about 75 feet altitude over the treeline the DA 60 (brand new) stopped. I put it in a gentle right bank using rudder for a continuous 180 degree turn back to the runway approach. At this point the altitude was around 20-25 feet, speed was constant in the glide. the turn was a little wide so I brought it to the runway's SE corner. Touch down was 50 feet down the runway going to the NW corner of the paved part. It ran on the mains (no flap drag) crossing into the mowed grass and continued to the rough, stopping there, no damage. The whole time I was waiting for it to behave like a TF, at any point, roll over and crash.
It became my favorite plane for practice, fooling around, and warbird events. I think the DA is mostly broken in now, the last flight was with an XOAR 24-14 wood prop. 0-90mph performance is a little better than a 22-12 carbon prop, but it won't exceed 90-95mph, the Graupner 22-12 PRO carbon will top 115 level, 125-130 diving. Nice RIP too!
The only thing I'm having more fun with is my old C5 Vette, It alsos RIPS. It is not as fast in acceleration than my 67 Vette convertible was, but is close,(mainly better tires and traction) and has better manners.
It became my favorite plane for practice, fooling around, and warbird events. I think the DA is mostly broken in now, the last flight was with an XOAR 24-14 wood prop. 0-90mph performance is a little better than a 22-12 carbon prop, but it won't exceed 90-95mph, the Graupner 22-12 PRO carbon will top 115 level, 125-130 diving. Nice RIP too!
The only thing I'm having more fun with is my old C5 Vette, It alsos RIPS. It is not as fast in acceleration than my 67 Vette convertible was, but is close,(mainly better tires and traction) and has better manners.
06-05-2017, 04:34 PM
#1533
quist, I had the Jr speed sensor on mine too, after calibrating it at 95 mph on interstate 75, I installed it in my H9 Mustang between the outer gun ports with the new DA 60 in the nose. I did not have the sound installed so I had to depend on my spotter to read me the tiny transmitter screen DATA. In a low angle full throttle dive with the DA running rich and sputtering he called out 127mph on the best pass. When we tried to get the touch down speed the sensor stopped readouts at 18mph just before touchdown, full flaps. Further calibration attempts at low speed in the car showed that it would begin to read speed at 15-20mph and usually dropped out below 20mph on decelleration. Testing it in the electric TF P-51B gave the same results but that plane exceeded 130mph level flight.
I also mounted my Action cam on my head to record the speed and the plane by holding the transmitter high to get both it and the plane on video. Comparing the video time lines to the ESC data showed that the speed sensor was fairly accurate between 20-130mph. The car had new tires so its speedometer readings could possibly be on the slow side by 2-3 mph. In my experience, full scale airspeed indicators don't begin to read until after the aircraft exceeds 25-30mph. My first attempts to get model speeds was with using a GPS, recorded with the action cam mounted in the back of the TF P-51B cockpit to get the flight, plus it could see the GPS speed indicator mounted on the instrument panel. The GPS would lose its lock whenever the plane changed direction more than a few degrees, making it necessary to fly way out,make a quick low speed turn, wait 5-8 seconds, then dive back into the model field. The GPS usually regained its lock toward the end of the speed run. The B model was being pulled by a Varioprop 16D four blade turned by an R65 brushless motor at 7,100 rpm, prop pitch was 18 inches. Current draw was generally below 80-90 amps at full speed. An XOAR 26-14 2 blade got up to 105mph, even in a steep dive. A similar test using an APC 26-15 electric 2 blade returned 108mph. The less powerful R-50 motor turning several different brand's 22 12 props (gas and electric) returned readings over 130mph with an incredible prop rip, spectators loved it. You can see a youtube video of this plane/motor/prop combination at this link;
I plan to have JR install the sound system in my transmitter. I considered buying a better GPS but I believe that the change-of-direction loss of lock would affect its readings also. And I hate waisting money on expensive stuff that have a high probability of failure.
I also mounted my Action cam on my head to record the speed and the plane by holding the transmitter high to get both it and the plane on video. Comparing the video time lines to the ESC data showed that the speed sensor was fairly accurate between 20-130mph. The car had new tires so its speedometer readings could possibly be on the slow side by 2-3 mph. In my experience, full scale airspeed indicators don't begin to read until after the aircraft exceeds 25-30mph. My first attempts to get model speeds was with using a GPS, recorded with the action cam mounted in the back of the TF P-51B cockpit to get the flight, plus it could see the GPS speed indicator mounted on the instrument panel. The GPS would lose its lock whenever the plane changed direction more than a few degrees, making it necessary to fly way out,make a quick low speed turn, wait 5-8 seconds, then dive back into the model field. The GPS usually regained its lock toward the end of the speed run. The B model was being pulled by a Varioprop 16D four blade turned by an R65 brushless motor at 7,100 rpm, prop pitch was 18 inches. Current draw was generally below 80-90 amps at full speed. An XOAR 26-14 2 blade got up to 105mph, even in a steep dive. A similar test using an APC 26-15 electric 2 blade returned 108mph. The less powerful R-50 motor turning several different brand's 22 12 props (gas and electric) returned readings over 130mph with an incredible prop rip, spectators loved it. You can see a youtube video of this plane/motor/prop combination at this link;
I plan to have JR install the sound system in my transmitter. I considered buying a better GPS but I believe that the change-of-direction loss of lock would affect its readings also. And I hate waisting money on expensive stuff that have a high probability of failure.
06-06-2017, 09:06 AM
#1536
Wow, that is horrific! Looks like the wing just tore out of the center section. Was a high g maneuver but not that high to cause that sort of failure. This causes me even more concern with this plane!
Last night after about 1/2 out of fiddling around I was able to mount the center wing section on the fuse. What caused the difficulty was the blind nuts we're installed at the wrong angle. Was able to jigger them into alignment but now worry they are loose. Have any of you experienced this?
I am still working on getting the large wing tubes cleaned up enough to go into the receiver tube without binding. I'm tempted to replace them with new 1.25 " tubes. It appears they are 32mm or 1.26" nominal in diameter. The fiberglass reciever tubes seem to be ok. IMHO It's the not concentric tubes that presents the problem.
thoughts?
Paul
Last night after about 1/2 out of fiddling around I was able to mount the center wing section on the fuse. What caused the difficulty was the blind nuts we're installed at the wrong angle. Was able to jigger them into alignment but now worry they are loose. Have any of you experienced this?
I am still working on getting the large wing tubes cleaned up enough to go into the receiver tube without binding. I'm tempted to replace them with new 1.25 " tubes. It appears they are 32mm or 1.26" nominal in diameter. The fiberglass reciever tubes seem to be ok. IMHO It's the not concentric tubes that presents the problem.
thoughts?
Paul
Last edited by WI53072; 06-06-2017 at 09:10 AM.
06-06-2017, 10:34 AM
#1537
If you freeze frame the video just after the pull into the dive you can see a white part flashing in the sun, and a flutter noise can be heard slightly later. The frame with guy holding the remains of the right wing shows the aileron and outboard flap still attached. It is possible that the inboard flap panel's hinges pulled out, putting too much strain on the center panel structure. The flutter may have destroyed the parts holding the rear wing tube in place. Once those parts fell off, the wing rotated around the main spars, tearing it off the plane.
I have been trying to warn of the need to re-glue all of the fiber glass hinge blades for two years, after I found they had worked loose in flight on both of my H9 Mustangs. Another reason to throttle back for dives. When they are installed at the factory, they omit roughing the smooth glass blades so that glue will stick. You can wiggle the blades and pop them loose right out of the box. I never use epoxy or A/C super glues on fiber glass parts, only Brown Gorilla glue. Both of the other types are prone to degrading and cracking unless you use the premium grades that the full-scale builders use. Cheaper epoxies will turn brown, soften and fail after being exposed to the sun's heat. Because of this, I haven't assembled a plane using epoxy for more than twenty years. I normally get over 300 flights out of an airframe before I retire it for rebuild or disposal. Gorilla glue NEVER degrades over time, my issues are structural cracks in frame work. You can take a new H9 Mustang and using a hot knife, cut the glue lines and remove parts intact to properly glue them after cleaning the factory glues off or, make better parts (using the original parts as patterns) out of REAL wood.
I have been trying to warn of the need to re-glue all of the fiber glass hinge blades for two years, after I found they had worked loose in flight on both of my H9 Mustangs. Another reason to throttle back for dives. When they are installed at the factory, they omit roughing the smooth glass blades so that glue will stick. You can wiggle the blades and pop them loose right out of the box. I never use epoxy or A/C super glues on fiber glass parts, only Brown Gorilla glue. Both of the other types are prone to degrading and cracking unless you use the premium grades that the full-scale builders use. Cheaper epoxies will turn brown, soften and fail after being exposed to the sun's heat. Because of this, I haven't assembled a plane using epoxy for more than twenty years. I normally get over 300 flights out of an airframe before I retire it for rebuild or disposal. Gorilla glue NEVER degrades over time, my issues are structural cracks in frame work. You can take a new H9 Mustang and using a hot knife, cut the glue lines and remove parts intact to properly glue them after cleaning the factory glues off or, make better parts (using the original parts as patterns) out of REAL wood.
Last edited by sjhanc; 06-12-2017 at 09:47 AM.
06-06-2017, 11:01 AM
#1538
After looking at the video using the Windows magnifier, the left flap seems to deflect down as the plane reaches the vertical in the climb. I can see it deflected all the way over the top until the flashing starts at the pull into the dive, then a large piece leaves the plane followed by the wing tearing off.
06-06-2017, 07:24 PM
#1539
SJ,
check out these pics of my outter wing panels. Any suggestion how to get these lined up properly? Is this where I need to do the wing tube surgery?
Also, my flaps are bottoming out when in the full up position ageist the center section? Has this situation occoured? If so what is preferred fix?
thanks in advance!
Paul
check out these pics of my outter wing panels. Any suggestion how to get these lined up properly? Is this where I need to do the wing tube surgery?
Also, my flaps are bottoming out when in the full up position ageist the center section? Has this situation occoured? If so what is preferred fix?
thanks in advance!
Paul
06-06-2017, 08:46 PM
#1540
It looks to me like the panels in the left picture have an out-of-square wing tube, most likely the main tube (largest) or closest to the leading edge. To verify this, get the panels back apart, then put both tubes in the center panel. Next you need a good 'L' square (or a 'T' square, either will do). Find the center panel's main root rib join line (center panel chord line). You may have to make small cut (a 3 sided square) in the covering in 2 places, using a heat blower to get the film adhesive to release so you can fold the covering back from the center ribs, exposing the glue line. Measure the distance from the glue line out to the last (outboard) rib at the outboard rib's Leading and trailing edges using a square to establish a 90 degree angle for the measurement. There should be no difference between the LE and TE span-wise distance.
If the two measurements are the same, The panel is square, the next step is to use the square based on the outboard rib, line it up on both aluminum tubes to check them for an out-of-square. condition. This check on the 3 wing sets that I worked on found that the small tube (trailing edge) was not coming out of the center panel at a 90 degree angle. Measuring the distance (chordwise) between the tubes at the outboard rib AND from the END of the short tube forward to the large tube found an error of 1/4 inch. The front tube was square to the outboard rib, the rear tube was not square to the outboard rib. I cut into both of MY wing center panels and realigned the rear tube, My brother was able to get Horizon to send him another center panel that was not perfect, but we WERE able to get the new center panel and the wing tip panels to go together. He may not ever get them apart again, but he does have a usable wing.
Horizon gladly took my $1600+ for my two defective models but ignored my request for a good center panel. I filled out their claim form, sent them pictures that they asked for, and could never get another word out of them. I get my airframes elsewhere now. And I have bought TWO Giant scale warbirds since, A Jerry Bates P-51B, and a Top Flite razorback P-47. Wlth accessories, another $2,000 that DID NOT go to Horizon. I did also buy two JR XG14 radios and three flight packs (four receivers and 30 servos), but directly from JR, and other RC dealers.
If you find the your problem is FRONT tube misalignment, you need a new center panel. I'm sorry if this turns out to be your problem, you will never be able to re-align the front tube.
If the two measurements are the same, The panel is square, the next step is to use the square based on the outboard rib, line it up on both aluminum tubes to check them for an out-of-square. condition. This check on the 3 wing sets that I worked on found that the small tube (trailing edge) was not coming out of the center panel at a 90 degree angle. Measuring the distance (chordwise) between the tubes at the outboard rib AND from the END of the short tube forward to the large tube found an error of 1/4 inch. The front tube was square to the outboard rib, the rear tube was not square to the outboard rib. I cut into both of MY wing center panels and realigned the rear tube, My brother was able to get Horizon to send him another center panel that was not perfect, but we WERE able to get the new center panel and the wing tip panels to go together. He may not ever get them apart again, but he does have a usable wing.
Horizon gladly took my $1600+ for my two defective models but ignored my request for a good center panel. I filled out their claim form, sent them pictures that they asked for, and could never get another word out of them. I get my airframes elsewhere now. And I have bought TWO Giant scale warbirds since, A Jerry Bates P-51B, and a Top Flite razorback P-47. Wlth accessories, another $2,000 that DID NOT go to Horizon. I did also buy two JR XG14 radios and three flight packs (four receivers and 30 servos), but directly from JR, and other RC dealers.
If you find the your problem is FRONT tube misalignment, you need a new center panel. I'm sorry if this turns out to be your problem, you will never be able to re-align the front tube.
Last edited by sjhanc; 06-06-2017 at 08:51 PM.
06-06-2017, 09:48 PM
#1541
Now for the panels in the right picture, There are several different possible causes for this problem. Separate the panels, then insert the aluminum tubes in the center panel. Use a marker that will draw a thin line on both tubes where they go into their wing holes. Remove them, keep the side that was in the center panel out, put the other end in the wing tip tubes all the way. Check the witness lines you made on the tubes. The lines should be even with, or inside of the tip's base rib holes. One of my #2 plane's rear tubes was too long to go all the way in. This, you can correct with a hacksaw. Also, the factory cut off on the aluminum tubes distorted the tube's ends, grinding the ends of the tubes to bevel them fixed their binding problem.
The next check is the two fiber glass/laminated-fake-wood wing tip retaining tabs. If they are not glued in straight, they will prevent the panels from seating. If this is your case, wiggled the tabs with mild force, they'll easily break their glue joints. If you find this is your problem, I'll post a fix for you.
If the tip retaining tabs are not your problem, remove the inboard flap panel and try to put the wings together. IF they now fit, your problem is the alignment tab and slot for the two flap panels. One of my outer flap panels had the fiberglass flap hinges glued TOO FAR into the tip's trailing edge spar at the inboard end of the wing tip flap panel. Its alignment tab slot could not seat on the inboard flap panel's wood tab. After I re-aligned the flap hinge tabs, I found that the slot for the flap alignment tab was not cut out far enough to let its tab fully seat. A little work with a DREMEL cutoff wheel enlarged the slot enough to seat the FLAP ALIGNMENT TAB in its slot.
After I got this far, my #2 plane's right tip panel still would not seat fully. A piece of die cut wood still attached to the base rib prevented the tip panel from seating the last 1/8 inch. This, you have to look for, it ain't obvious. This particular tip panel's aileron hinge tabs were already loose, and fell inside the tip. I made a new one, the old hinge tab Is still rattling around inside the wing tip. The hinge tabs in the left tip all worked loose during the test flights along with the rudder hinge tabs.
Just keep in mind the fact that this is an excellent design, just poorly built. Once you get it in the air, the bad memories of the battle for wing alignment will fade away. The person who assembled it at the factory should be made to sit in their backyard 'NUC MAM' pit for several weeks as punishment.
The next check is the two fiber glass/laminated-fake-wood wing tip retaining tabs. If they are not glued in straight, they will prevent the panels from seating. If this is your case, wiggled the tabs with mild force, they'll easily break their glue joints. If you find this is your problem, I'll post a fix for you.
If the tip retaining tabs are not your problem, remove the inboard flap panel and try to put the wings together. IF they now fit, your problem is the alignment tab and slot for the two flap panels. One of my outer flap panels had the fiberglass flap hinges glued TOO FAR into the tip's trailing edge spar at the inboard end of the wing tip flap panel. Its alignment tab slot could not seat on the inboard flap panel's wood tab. After I re-aligned the flap hinge tabs, I found that the slot for the flap alignment tab was not cut out far enough to let its tab fully seat. A little work with a DREMEL cutoff wheel enlarged the slot enough to seat the FLAP ALIGNMENT TAB in its slot.
After I got this far, my #2 plane's right tip panel still would not seat fully. A piece of die cut wood still attached to the base rib prevented the tip panel from seating the last 1/8 inch. This, you have to look for, it ain't obvious. This particular tip panel's aileron hinge tabs were already loose, and fell inside the tip. I made a new one, the old hinge tab Is still rattling around inside the wing tip. The hinge tabs in the left tip all worked loose during the test flights along with the rudder hinge tabs.
Just keep in mind the fact that this is an excellent design, just poorly built. Once you get it in the air, the bad memories of the battle for wing alignment will fade away. The person who assembled it at the factory should be made to sit in their backyard 'NUC MAM' pit for several weeks as punishment.
Last edited by sjhanc; 06-06-2017 at 10:05 PM.
06-07-2017, 04:04 PM
#1542
Guys,
Right picture partially figured out. The large tube from the factory needed to be cut off 9/16" !!! That means the wing tube was installed improperly. Now i am almost able to get the wing assembled but it becomes too tight which I believe is an internal tube issue.
keep in mind I purchased 1-1/4" OD alum tubes so none of the tubes big or small either side fit tight. But both wings as you approach the root get very tight.
What did the was the other post above say.....Oh yeah, 2 steps ahead 4 back ������
Got any tips on the flaps binding on the center section?
Paul
Right picture partially figured out. The large tube from the factory needed to be cut off 9/16" !!! That means the wing tube was installed improperly. Now i am almost able to get the wing assembled but it becomes too tight which I believe is an internal tube issue.
keep in mind I purchased 1-1/4" OD alum tubes so none of the tubes big or small either side fit tight. But both wings as you approach the root get very tight.
What did the was the other post above say.....Oh yeah, 2 steps ahead 4 back ������
Got any tips on the flaps binding on the center section?
Paul
Last edited by WI53072; 06-07-2017 at 05:43 PM.
06-07-2017, 07:09 PM
#1543
SJ,
After shortening the large tube 9/16" and fitting the flap tab, the left wing (right pic above) slides together almost but verrrrrrry tight and leaving a 1/4 inch gap at the the rear portion of the outter panel. See picture. I believe both wings need surgery. I just don't know for sure what tube on the outter wing panel needs to be moved. I think the wing shown on this post needs the rear tube aligned and on the other panel the front tube needs to be moved. I think Horizon should send me new outter wings for all this hassle. Or credit me with a new Top RC Mustang!!! ��
Paul
After shortening the large tube 9/16" and fitting the flap tab, the left wing (right pic above) slides together almost but verrrrrrry tight and leaving a 1/4 inch gap at the the rear portion of the outter panel. See picture. I believe both wings need surgery. I just don't know for sure what tube on the outter wing panel needs to be moved. I think the wing shown on this post needs the rear tube aligned and on the other panel the front tube needs to be moved. I think Horizon should send me new outter wings for all this hassle. Or credit me with a new Top RC Mustang!!! ��
Paul
06-07-2017, 07:29 PM
#1544
SJ, update
Picture 1 right wing front tube removed rear tube left in perfect fit. So front tube misaligned. Second picture is of left wing both tubes removed. The left wing no matter what tube removed would not align (rear) and was extremely tight. Is it possible both tubes misaligned!
Paul
Picture 1 right wing front tube removed rear tube left in perfect fit. So front tube misaligned. Second picture is of left wing both tubes removed. The left wing no matter what tube removed would not align (rear) and was extremely tight. Is it possible both tubes misaligned!
Paul
06-08-2017, 01:15 AM
#1545
You need to determine if your problem involves the front tube for either side. If you find that this is the case, it can't be fixed with any reasonable method of repair. The front tube is the structural support for the main spars. Dissassembly of the front tube is destructive. That is why I described the procedure for checking how square the wing sructure is. Only the rear tube alignment can be corrected by surgery. You will need a new wing to fix front tube alignment. Sorry.
06-08-2017, 03:30 AM
#1546
Well for sure on the right wing it is the front tube because with it removed and the rear tube in, the wing fits perfectly without bind of misalignment. So I need a new right wing outter panel. As for the left outter panel, it won't align with any combination of tubes in, only with both removed. So I think it safe to say I'll be needing a left outter panel too.
Has Horizon been replacing these free or for the vost of shipping? And if so will pictures and a description suffice?
Thanks SJ
Paul
Has Horizon been replacing these free or for the vost of shipping? And if so will pictures and a description suffice?
Thanks SJ
Paul
06-10-2017, 05:46 AM
#1548
New panels arrived. Right wing perfect now no binding. See pic. Left wing panel stil tight but much improved.
More to come.
More to come.
Last edited by WI53072; 06-12-2017 at 04:05 AM.
06-10-2017, 09:25 AM
#1549
I bought one of these last October and am just getting around to putting it together. I have been following this thread for a while and wanted to share my findings as well.
If I put the aluminum tubes in the outer panels first, they don't line up with the holes in the center section and I can't even get them started. If I put the tubes in the center section first, I can get the outer panels started, but they bind way before mating with the center section. I then inserted the aluminum tubes into each set of sockets and used a dial caliper to measure the distance between the aluminum tubes at the rib and out at the end of the rear tube, as it is shorter than the main tube. What I found was that NONE of the wing tube/socket sets are parallel. In fact, three of the sets get narrower as you move out to the end of the aluminum tubes and the other set actually gets wider.
If I put the aluminum tubes in the outer panels first, they don't line up with the holes in the center section and I can't even get them started. If I put the tubes in the center section first, I can get the outer panels started, but they bind way before mating with the center section. I then inserted the aluminum tubes into each set of sockets and used a dial caliper to measure the distance between the aluminum tubes at the rib and out at the end of the rear tube, as it is shorter than the main tube. What I found was that NONE of the wing tube/socket sets are parallel. In fact, three of the sets get narrower as you move out to the end of the aluminum tubes and the other set actually gets wider.