last week i bought a set of plans from a person on rc-u . the plans were a ziroli p-38. asking this person if they were copies or the originals , i was told they were the black line. thinking they may or may not be copies i took a chance on them . after getting them i was disappointed but not surprised to find they were copies. the plans looked nice but were over an inch off too long . after contacting this person letting him know that nick was a good friend and that what he was doing was illegal , he seemed to have stopped selling them here and moved to ebay. my point is if people keep stealing from people that invest a year of there time into making a set of plans that's only a few dollars, then i think you'll see the days of plans soon to be gone. then what will we do? how many of us have the time or knowledge to sit down and draw up plans of any size? i threw 30 bucks away on junk plans and will have to turn around and buy real plans for 58.00 . total cost 88.00 . some deal hahaha i guess i am guilty of putting greed before common sense. in other words , i'm steping over dollars to pick up pennies.

Yes, unfortunately it happens all the time and it's gotten to the point where I won't buy second hand plans. If I want Ziroli plans. I'll buy them from Nick, for RCM plans, I get them from RCM.........

I can understand your pain, as it seems quite fashionable these day's to copy anything and sell it. If you know who this fellow is that is selling these copies on Ebay, notify them. They are usually right on top of illegal activity. Good Luck, Dave

I am out about $15 because I copied my own originals to put on the building board so as not to destroy my originals (to facilitate future repairs). Not the same thing but how can one be sure when buying plans from some one that they are original? I now must suspect another set of plans I have a ZDC3 that I bought that are black line. I guess the answer is to only buy them from the source. I had assumed they were original because I paid nearly the same price as if I had bought them from Nick. I did ask if they were originals and the answer I got was "I have not copied them" but I did not ask where he got them. His reason for selling was, the plane was just too big for him to accomadate.

Lemme tell you of my experiences with plans and copying over the past forty years.

Anyone can take a set of plans to a copy house and get them done for $3-5 per 60 inch sheet. Thus in selling them for $25 or more, you make a handy $20 on the deal. If you are ambitious, one of the older wide format Xerox plans copy machines can be purchased and operated at home. These generally were several thousand dollar machines when new, but now are junk on the market and I see them just a bit over $100 in working, used condition. They are slow, but faster than driving to the store to make a few copies if you only need maybe five sheets. They are fidgity in set up compared to new optical scanning machines. A 330 foot long roll of copy paper runs about $35 locally. Operation of one of these would bring your per copy cost down to about $1 per sheet.

The copy houses and the blueprint shops say the plan will distort 1-3% along the X axis which sounds small, but taken in consideration that this is 1/2" to 1 1/2" over a 60 inch long plan, it will easily lead to problems. It revolves around the diameter of the feed roller and the thickness of the paper. In modern machines, they have a electronic media compensator which will take the distortion out.

As for "blackline" it used to mean a higher quality print back when we ran an original through an Ozalid machine. Blueprints then and now are still the cheapest and fastest way to copy an original plan. That 60 inch long plan today goes for 10-15 cents per square foot on an Ozalid machine. You can only make a poor blueprint from a plan which is not transparent. Thus if you can get the seller to indicate the plan is a "blueprint or blueline print" then you may be getting an original or off the original. However, there are ways to work around that too. Now the blackline term denotes a cheap old Xerox copy.

Considering the above, why not purchase some popular or obscure plans for $50-$75 each, and how long would it take to make back your initial investment?


Wm.

GOOD INFO . BUT IT'S STILL ILLEGAL TO SELL COPYRIGHTED PLANS

It's not illegal if you sell the original copy (just like selling a used book or CD). I'm with those who will buy only from the originating source, as long as that source is still selling the product. If not, all bets are off.

THAT'S A GOOD POINT

I would definitely recommend NOT buying the Jerry Bates F6F Hellcat plans from Kit Cutters Inc (www.kitcutters.com)! I was interested in having them cut the wood for this plan. They said that they needed the plans because they didn't have them. This is despite the fact that they advertised this kit. So I sent them a COPY of the plans that I purchased directly from Jerry Bates' web site. NOW, Kit Cutters advertises these plans for sale, for $5 less than Jerry Bates by the way. So they are copies of a copy. I ended up not buying anything from Kit Cutters because they couldn't do the work in a reasonable amount of time. Now I'm suspicious of their work.

I hadn't thought about the legal issues before, but I'll send an email to Jerry Bates to notify them of the situation.

Kerry

WARBIRD_1:

Well, I have had my plans copied and resold. Found one being sold on eBay last year. In round figures, from a thousand miles away. I can yell and send e:mails, but other than that nothing further happens. It would cost me $1-2000 to sue over a $20 profit the seller made. In shipping a note off to the folks at eBay, unless there is criminal case pending, they are just too busy with other problem sellers. This is just another system to make a hot dollar off another in the hobby field.

Elsewhere here at RCU, there was a complaint about a kit manufacturer copying the work of another. It is just another system to make a dollar off of someone else.

Now how many of you think that a street vendor is selling genuine Rollex wristwatches for under $100? You all ought to know by now, that a "good deal" is not always possible on a fake.



KERRYDEL:

It was my understanding that Jerry Bates had outside sources do the cutting for him. All other firms now selling parts from his plans are not in conformance to his wishes anymore.


Wm.

Yeah, I agree. Unfortunately, copyrights are about in the same class as patents. They're only about as good as your personal financial ability to fight off the infringers in court. I think Nick Ziroli is a genius. His stuff FLYS! I've built several of his designs, not the big warbirds, but smaller stuff published in the mags years ago, and they all fly well. I hate seeing someone like him getting ripped off, but unfortunately, the world is full of unethical people. I'm working on a design of my own at the moment, maybe I'll even try to sell it someday if it works out and flys well, and I'd sure hate to see copies of it being sold on E bay for a few dollars less.

I had asked Ziroli this very question a few years ago. His stance was that he didn't care who did what with his plans. Now, maybe he's changed his mind, I don't know. Could be that a lot of these copies floating around are due to his loose attitude on the matter, and guys "ran"with it.

If guys were so concerned about the designers welfare and making sure the Zirolis, and the Smiths, and the Bates, etc... got their "due", they would NOT buy plans (or copies)second hand, rather, directly from the designer. The rationale here is that a "model" has already been built from that "particular" set of plans (Just like Microsofts "Windows" and their licensing... one computer, one operating system. Not one license of "Windows XP" installed on 4 computers. Bill Gates would only be worth $40 billion then.) If 3 Ziroli Corsairs are built from one set of plans then Ziroli is out $116, and so on, and so on.

There are no bigger "Cheap Skates" on the planet then model airplane guys. We'll ***** about a hobby shop selling a bag of screws for .10 more then the hobby shop on the other side of town, then burn $1.50 in gas to go get them. What a sense less bunch. No offense meant warbird_1, but if Nick Ziroli was such a good friend. Why would you not support him and buy his plans from him, you bought plans knowing they MIGHT be copies?
Your heart was in the right place asking if they were originals... but then... you had to be modeler, didn't you?

-Mustang51

the same reason you buy used cars instead of new ones. to save a few bucks.

Concerning patents and copywrights I asked a friend if he had a patent on a product he had designed and manufactured for 20 years. He said he never got one and just sells them at a price others could not beat. One soulition: Draw plans and flood the market with them selling each one so cheap it would not pay to copy them. Think this would work? I don't know.

Differance being. When I buy that 1997 Ford "X"... I know I'm getting a 1997 Ford "X".

I bought a set of Ziroli Corsair plans off Ebay from a guy who is also a RCU member
and found out they were copies when they arrived and I was pissed. I called over to
Ziroli's and Mrs. Ziroli was NOT very happy. I give them the info on this guy. Fairs fair.

one of the problems with copies is they're off most of the time. the one's i got were off over 1" over all length. the sad part to is when you ask if they're copies you always get the " i know there black line or i bought them from a guy bla blaa blaa never a yes or no . well i have a set of copies i'll sell and they are an inch off ! i'll take 58.00 for them 'cause that's what nick gets hahahahaa just joking

Well based on what I read here I will not sell a copy of plans for an inquiring builder on the RCU 'pattern page'who wanted a "copy" of a Vintage Tiger Tail pattern ship and instead will direct him to the source who went through the time and effort to re draw the old 1971 Nats Pattern winner. [sm=surprised.gif]