Here's the question:

Are there less kit builders or just more fliers ?

You decide

I constantly hear (I work at a hobby shop) that "No one builds anymore"

Is it true ?

I think plenty of people still build, they're just at home building rather than being seen out flying. I can understand the pleasure one might get out of building and the apprehension of flying same aircraft that you just spent so much in building. Hence, it doesn't surpise me that some gravitate heavily toward one or the other.

I'm a builder at heart. The problem for me with ARF's is I can put one together so fast, I am now inundated with airplanes. I'm currently getting a major dose of building therapy with the Ziroli Stuka. Now I can build until my heart is content without worry of where to put another plane. Of course when the stuka is done, I'll have to get rid of 3 ARFs to make room for it.

Definitely less builders out there, but you have a lot more flyers now because you don't have to know how to build to fly. Many a beginner in the old days, 80's and earlier, quit the hobby before even getting their first plane built. Now you just have them quit after their first flight and crash! Thanks to companies like Skyshark and others for bringing us some great kits with quality that could only be imagined back in the day.

Balsa dust boogers forever!

Dion

I only build kits, and do not intend to put an ARF together. With that being said, I think a big part of the problem is we are living in an instant gratification society. People decide they want to fly, then that means today, not six months from now after putting together a bunch of ply and balsa.

I also disagree that the builders do not fly much. I fly several times per week during the spring, summer and fall months, then spend the winter months building the next years fleet. The only building I do during the flying months is not really building but maintenance.

It has been my experience that the quality and variety of kits currently available have declined. Visit your local hobby shop and I don't mean Hobby People and see what they have to offer in the way of kits. Your lucky if you find more the three or four and they usually are .40 size trainers. The vast majority of model for sale will be ARFs and the selection will be diverse from trainers to semi scale.
Beleieve it or not the demise of kits was due to the demand of balsa wood by the airline industry and liquid petroleum tankers. Balsa wood is used in the construction of pallets used to move freight aboard commerical air transport aircraft and in the case of transport ships that haul liquid petroleum it is used as an insluator. This demand by these two industries caused severe balsa wood shortages
for the hobby industry. Most kit manufactures could not get the proper grade balsa for there kits and also could not afford the escalating prices for this wood.
Those people who used to build from kits either stopped doing so or became scratch builders. What filled the void, the advent of the ARFs did and the quality and variety of these models is growing astronomical. The last airplane I constructed was scratched built and cost me over $200.00 in wood alone.
Builders will never go away but there will be just less of them.

Interesting how you ask one question and get a totally different answer. I think there are more fliers.

Some of the more vocal replies might be paraphrased, "Well there's more of those despicable ARF's, and that's a bad thing!" Not exactly what you asked, and this post was not in the Kit builder's forum, but in the Warbirds forum.

Since the mass merchandisers continue to expand their operations, and more and more of them appear on the Web, I infer that there's plenty of business for everyone, and the favorites are the ones that fly soon after purchase. I also see Kit manufacturers offering ARF's along with their regular wares, and some new kit makers advertising in the magazines.

So, Welcome to the new fliers, and welcome to the new kit builders.

Best wishes,
Dave Olson

I build more than I fly, but I still manage to fly a lot. I find generally there are less (no) builders and a lot less flyers who are true craftsman (i.e. make a repair look like damage never happened, recovering, etc) To their benefit - the quality of some ARFs have gotten to the point where they are acceptable even to us builders. People who want to fly no longer have to spend 3 months building if they don't want to. I have to admit - I will ocassionally buy an ARF, but I will still scrutinize it - if I see anything I don't like I will modify it to my standards and then fly it - that usually means some work. At a minimum I beef up a few things and check the glue - in some cases - I will strip it and recover it because I liked the airframe but hated the covering scheme (i.e. GP Venus comes to mind) ..

With all the ARFs out there, people won't get to improve their building skills either. I cannot tell you how many "turds" I put in the air before I became an excellent builder - that is how I learned. Yes I crashed and it hurt - it made me pay attention so that the next time I didn't make the same mistake. With an ARF, you just put it together and fly it -if it crashes you get another that looks and flies the exact same as what you lost. I am not that old (43) but today, not many have the patience to take the time to craft what truly can be a work of art...

This might sound crazy, but I think I like building more than I like flying!... the mental challenge of building a giant scale work of art like a Carden or Aerotech from a pile of sticks and foam really gives me a sense of accomplishment and the nerves on that first flight is a big shot of adrenaline. One mistake could cost $3500, so you learn not to make mistakes!

I am lucky in that when I build a plane for someone, I usually get to fly it first too!
DP

I prefer flying. I've been doing this stuff for 55 yrs & I've built many hundreds of models -- some are my own creations, others were/are kits, plus ARFs as well. I'm a bit tired of spending my life in the basement, so I don't look down my nose at ARFs. Some are pretty good, & the not-so-good are easy enough to quickly bash into something better. To me, flying is the point of the whole business. I love carefully crafted models -- they are beautiful things, but ARFs can get and keep you in the air with a minimum of effort & time -- they have their place.

I build. Usually from plans because of the aircraft I prefer. I buy ARF's also because some are great and of planes not offered in kits and its quick to replace a loss.

Some one new to the hobby can get flying quickly with an ARF. If they stay with it there is the possibility that one day they will build also.

I have a friend at the field who will not build. I personally do not have much time so that new plane takes a long time to get in the air when building.

Carl

I'm guessing from that, if I looked on your workbench I would not find a bottle of CA? Instant gratification is a good thing. Email, telephone, UPS Next Day Air, CA. It's how we improve as a race. Noone wants to wait anymore, and in this day and age you shouldn't have to.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but ARF's do serve a purpose.

Call it instant gratification if you want, but I crashed 3 kits this year. So, to get flying again, I purchased a couple of ARFs. I have a TF giant P51 kit in progress, but I didn't want to spend the rest of the summer finishing it and not flying.

ARFs definitely only HELP the hobby. There will always be a limited number of hobby dollars. And if a larger portion is directed to RC because of ARFs, then it helps the whole hobby. And likewise there will always be a limited number of hobby hours. ARFs allow people to get flying much quicker, and for the vast majority of RC fliers, that's the FUN part. And more fun = more dollars spent.

Kerry

P.S. If I had to spend 2 years building a plane as fantastic as NEO, and then crash it on the maiden flight like he did, I wouldn't have the stomach to stay in the hobby.

Something that a lot of the ARF haters don't realize ... new people entering the hobby will spend money long before they spend time building because they hear exactly what we tell them. "It's not IF you crash but WHEN. Especially when you are just learning." The way I have seen things happen sometimes - #1. New flier buys a RTF trainer. #2. New flier buddy cords 5 times. #3 New flier crashes while flying without their buddy cord buddy. #4 New flier rebuilds trainer. #5. Repeat #3 & #4 until they finally get the hang of it. After seeing that they are capable of cutting/glueing/covering/rebuilding .... they buy a TF Giant Corsair kit. After 3 months of looking at the instructions, they buy a smaller kit to "work their way up". Either way, they are now kit builders.

I currently have 4 planes that I fly regularly. 3 are ARFS and 1 was a kit. I currently have 4 kits in my build room ... one 95% completed, one 5% completed and two still in their boxes. I also have an ARF that I have ordered and expect to receive around this time next month.

The original question is really kinda hard to answer. I think there are more people in the hobby than there was 10 years ago ... but that is kind of obvious ... and I think only a small number of those have advanced to kit building ... so the percentage of people in the hobby that build is going down. I am afraid that in 10 years there will be 2 camps in the hobby - those that build from scratch and those that buy ARFs. I fear that the kit manufactures will continue to drop kits and add ARFs .... of course companies like GreatPlanes, Hanger9, Kyosho ... have been established in the ARF world for some time. But now we see TopFlite ... even Skyshark testing the ARF waters. Companies that were built by supplying high quality kits are being forced into the ARF world just to keep up. Hopefully some of the kit suppliers will be able to make it in both worlds.

One of those advancements ... I have to work my butt off to make a kit come out as nice as an ARF. You don't see too many people these days unload a duct-taped, glue globbed frankenstien and set it next to a Hanger9 Corsair and say with their nose held in the air, "I built mine from a kit. How can you fly those ARFs?"

I build and fly. I like the building aspect alot. I like the flying alot. I like a nice ARF alot. Damm I just like R/C. Man have I got a problem.-Mike

Kind of tells you where we are in the world of RC, and in general, when you bring a new kit built plane out to the field and some very well meaning guys ask you "What ARF is that?" I mean, what do you say to that? I guess its a compliment now to have a plane built to the degree that someone thinks it's an ARF! And, it's not always the more common subjects. I had a guy at my club, not too young mind you, that asked me if my Skyshark Dauntless was an ARF!!! [X(]

Live and let live, but it still makes me scratch my head . . .

Mark

I'm both a builder and a flier. DAH !!! I've been into RC flying for over thirty years now. Man has it been that long ??? Dang !!!
The first ARF's where pretty bad, but they have gotten better and better over the years. I don't care what a modeler prefers so long as he's having fun and participating with the rest of us RC nuts !
But I think that the most avid modeler should try at least one ARF and the most avid ARF flier should try building something to learn from the experience.
Okay then !!! See you at the field !!! No matter what you bring!!!

I just will never understand why there is any ill feeling towards ARF's. I love them just as much as I love building. I've bought a number of ARFs and I'm currently building a Don Smith B-17. I work, my wife works and I have a two year old and one on the way. Someone in my position doesn't have all day and night to spend building. So I build 10 minutes here, an hour there or whenever I can. ARF's allow me to fly and if I crash or want a new plane...I don't have to miss the next two months of flying while I build a plane. ARF's have definitely drawn thousands into this hobby who otherwise would have been intimidated by having to build a kit. There is nothing wrong with a guy who only wants to fly ARFS, a guy who wants to build, and a guy who wants to do both. I consider myself a combination of all of them. I think the fact of the matter is that most guys just simply love planes...the more the merrier. So to answer the original question, I think there is an equal distribution of those building and flying ARFs. You would never guess that I'm a builder because it takes me so long...you'll see me flying three different ARF's before you ever see a plane I built from scratch.
Pat

Isn't that the great thing about this sport/hobby we have the best of both worlds. ARF's 10 years ago were the pits, now there not too bad. Kits are even better too ( if you haven't already look at Skyshark's stuff). This is a great time to be in R/C. -Mike

ARF's have flooded the market...no doubt. I don't place much trust in the building quality and material in an ARF. I trust my building and good judgement. I don't use poor quality material
and I take pride in my work.

"Keep 'Em Flying!"
Flak

I've been building balsa kits going on 48 years now. I enjoy building, always have. Like one of my friends told me, "when you're either building a kit or scratch building, YOU are in charge of "Quality Control."" I like that part of it. Seen some ARF's that I wasn't too impressed with some of it, but couldn't readily be changed.
I've put together a couple ARF's, some for others, and one Funtana .40 for myself. The quality of that Funtana ARF is outstanding, as well as some of the others, H9 P-51, etc.
One of the problems I see is that there are some people showing up at the field who have never flown, and come in with an ARF that certainly isn't a trainer. And when you try to explain to them that this is not even close to the first plane they should be learning on, you get the "deer in the headlights" look. They just don't understand that, until like someone farther up on the thread said, "Splat!". Makes for a steep learning curve.
On the bright side, several of our members basically learned to fly on the "Real Flight" simulator, and came to the field and in one case, I removed the buddy cord on his third flight and he's been on his own ever since. He realizes now how many airplanes the simulator has probably saved him.
If you got the time, building is OK, but lots of folks today don't have that kind of time (or patience in some cases), in which
the ARF route is perfect for them. I just don't like showing up at the field with 6 other duplicates there like mine. But that gets interesting when they all get in the air at the same time!!!
Randy

I'm not sure I understand the poll, but if there are more fliers out there, then there must be more builders. Remember that arfs are built by someone..... I personally would rather build than fly, nothing gives me more pleasure than flying what I build. I fly them a few times and pass them along to another flyer in the arf form to fund another build. Getting ready for a 33% Super Decathlon and a Ziroli Stuka, so you may be looking to buy these arf's sometime late next summer.

I build kits and assemble ARFs. I think the ARF has opened up the hobby to a different kind of participant. Whether it's a time issue or the lack of tools/confidence to build a kit to completion and see it fly. Either way it is good for the hobby. I myself build kits and assemble ARFs. I hope to see the hobby build more ARC's. Ie.. TF giant P-51. If I could purchase more large aircraft built but not covered, I would most likely stop building altogether. This would give me the ability to have a new airplane with minimal build time, yet be able to cover and detail as I like.

Just my two cents worth.

Good Point, Tedster. I would also probably lean more toward the ARC's. It might give you the chance to do a little "tweaking" on the airframe in some areas if you wanted to before covering, plus, as you say, give you any covering option you wanted.
I've also seen some of our club members buy an ARF and completely strip it and recover it to suit themselves. Probably still quicker than building your own.
I guess those of us who build regularly forget how long it took to get to the stage of being a decent builder. I know the first several planes I built weren't nothing to write home about, but they did fly. And to this day, I'm still not going to win any prizes for my iron-on covering jobs.
Randy

That is EXACTLY the reason I have no ill feelings towards ARFs. Sure they aren't built to the specs people build kits to... but I can't cover worth a dam, and I wonder how the chinese companies can sell something covered as nice as they do for so cheap. They must pay little chinese kids 10 cents an hour to assemble them.