World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
02-19-2005, 03:14 AM
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World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
Well, I am finally getting to building my World Models 60 ARF P51D and I am curious how the stock retracts are holding up for those of you that have been flying them? I have new OS 120 Surpass II for it and I am thinking about replacing the the stock mechanical retracts before my first flight? To install Robart 551RS Robo Strut ready pneumatic retracts with 7/16 offset P51 style Robo Struts and a medium Robart air kit with a variable retract valve so the retracts can be slowed to near scale speed. Have any of you WM P51 drivers replaced your retracts yet? I figured that since I need to take the retracts out and add epoxy and fiberglass cloth with some balsa stock to strengthen the mounts that I also will soak with CA. I will need to Dremel out the center rib that hold the outside retract plate so the strut can get pulled up into the wheel wells. I will replace what a remove with 1/8 plywood on both sides of the rib and the other rib.
The reason I am asking for opinions seriously is that two weeks ago I was visiting my friends club field and I saw a brand new WM 60 ARF P51D just like mine the Petie II the pilot was test flying the plane had a brand new Saito 91 in it and take of was pretty short with partial flap so I know my plane will have more than enough power with the 120 Surpass. And he flew it for about 10 minutes and set up for a long smooth approach a few yards before the edge of the runway the pilot selected full flaps and made what I thought was a flawless and smooth wheel landing. While the tail was still up the left retract folded closed and it spun the plane around and the pilot killed the power and the plane skidded to a stop and the retract was still bolted to the plate and mostly in the wing but it really tore up the wing sheeting and several ribs. It was repairable but it will take some serious time and work. The consensus was that the lockdown cam in the retract failed[:-] On the first flight and he needs to recover half the wing now after repairs are made. So I am thinking about installing the Robart retracts and reinforcing the ribs and retract plates before I fly the plane? I could see if he had bounced the landing but it was a perfect approach and landing. I dont want to have to repair the plane on my first flight so I am swapping out retracts I would love to hear from other pilots about the retracts.
I am ordering some Ultracote this weekend with my retracts and struts and I think the covering on the plane is Silver Ultracote does anyone know for sure? Also in a Mustang book I have there are pictures of a squadron full of blue nosed P51's including B models. So I am printing different nose art for my plane.
Thanks Guy's
The reason I am asking for opinions seriously is that two weeks ago I was visiting my friends club field and I saw a brand new WM 60 ARF P51D just like mine the Petie II the pilot was test flying the plane had a brand new Saito 91 in it and take of was pretty short with partial flap so I know my plane will have more than enough power with the 120 Surpass. And he flew it for about 10 minutes and set up for a long smooth approach a few yards before the edge of the runway the pilot selected full flaps and made what I thought was a flawless and smooth wheel landing. While the tail was still up the left retract folded closed and it spun the plane around and the pilot killed the power and the plane skidded to a stop and the retract was still bolted to the plate and mostly in the wing but it really tore up the wing sheeting and several ribs. It was repairable but it will take some serious time and work. The consensus was that the lockdown cam in the retract failed[:-] On the first flight and he needs to recover half the wing now after repairs are made. So I am thinking about installing the Robart retracts and reinforcing the ribs and retract plates before I fly the plane? I could see if he had bounced the landing but it was a perfect approach and landing. I dont want to have to repair the plane on my first flight so I am swapping out retracts I would love to hear from other pilots about the retracts.
I am ordering some Ultracote this weekend with my retracts and struts and I think the covering on the plane is Silver Ultracote does anyone know for sure? Also in a Mustang book I have there are pictures of a squadron full of blue nosed P51's including B models. So I am printing different nose art for my plane.
Thanks Guy's
02-19-2005, 07:39 AM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
Can't speak negatively about the stock gear, only that the gear have bent a little.
As far as nose art, The Cripes a Mighty blue noser is my personal favorite. He was the number one ace for the american P-51 pilots right up to the time he was killed.
He was chasing a 109 down at tree top level when anti aircraft gunners saw the 109 come over the trees and accidently shot him instead. After bullets contacted the metal the aircraft was observed to climb into a slow left turn and lost speed came back down to the ground in the same slow turn. He was already dead upon impact.
That was Christmas Day 1944.
As far as nose art, The Cripes a Mighty blue noser is my personal favorite. He was the number one ace for the american P-51 pilots right up to the time he was killed.
He was chasing a 109 down at tree top level when anti aircraft gunners saw the 109 come over the trees and accidently shot him instead. After bullets contacted the metal the aircraft was observed to climb into a slow left turn and lost speed came back down to the ground in the same slow turn. He was already dead upon impact.
That was Christmas Day 1944.
02-19-2005, 09:26 AM
#3
RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
I have and have built many WM planes for friends and never had any problems with the stock wire gear. If they bend too much or break, thats a skill level problem, not structure as you can push the gear through the wing of any plane if you want too.
Remove the gear from the plane and slop a bunch of epoxy to the back sides and surrounding area of the retract mounting blocks. I have never had a pair come out from doing this. Also remember that when you land,,,, if your engine quits and you then realize that your not making it back to the runway-keep the gear retracted and belly land it in the weeds. many think the gear down will keep the wing from being damage when actually it will rip the crap out of it.
If you do it this way, you dust it off and fly again, you have the gear down and you may need a whole new wing.
Remove the gear from the plane and slop a bunch of epoxy to the back sides and surrounding area of the retract mounting blocks. I have never had a pair come out from doing this. Also remember that when you land,,,, if your engine quits and you then realize that your not making it back to the runway-keep the gear retracted and belly land it in the weeds. many think the gear down will keep the wing from being damage when actually it will rip the crap out of it.
If you do it this way, you dust it off and fly again, you have the gear down and you may need a whole new wing.
02-19-2005, 10:24 AM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
ORIGINAL: Snoop Doggy Bag
I have and have built many WM planes for friends and never had any problems with the stock wire gear. If they bend too much or break, thats a skill level problem, not structure as you can push the gear through the wing of any plane if you want too. <snip>
I have and have built many WM planes for friends and never had any problems with the stock wire gear. If they bend too much or break, thats a skill level problem, not structure as you can push the gear through the wing of any plane if you want too. <snip>
Don't know about the other WM offerings, but no one should take your over-generalization seriously. WM was, when first introduced, often reported to have soft wire in the gear. I recall many other postings on soft WM product gear.
Good luck,
Dave Olson
02-19-2005, 12:17 PM
#5
RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
I have the Petie 2nd from WM with about a 100 flights on it. Still have the stock gear in it with no problem. My guess is that he didn't have the retracts adjusted correctly or not enough throw on the servo arm but that is just a guess. I have found that alot of fliers don't get use a long enough arm on the servo. One thing to make sure of is to watch the pin on the retract that slides back and forth that it is going the full distance from one side to the other. My retracts are holding up fine but I do want to install the same as you the robart 551's and 7/16" offset struts with 4" tires but only because the stock ones have some play and would give it a better look. Plan on removing the wheel wells. The plane flies like it is on rails and the faster the better.
02-19-2005, 06:36 PM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
Thanks Guys, I came home after I saw that landing and came to the same conclusion that he didnt have a large enough arm on his retract servo so it didnt lock the left retract down. I thought it was builder error because he made a beautiful wheel landing and it folded. Well I do want Robo Struts I am going to install the Robart gear while I am building the plane so any mods I need to do to the retract plates so the struts will come all the way up. I will order the Robart gear Monday so I can start work asap. I am going to wait to epoxy the wing panels until I get the retracts, struts and wheels as will be much easier to modify the plates and reinforce them while I can get access from th side as well as the top of the wheel well. I will take pictures while I go and post them to this thread for those that are interested.
Snoop, I will cover the retract wells and mounts with West Epoxy and balsa and ply rib doublers and glass cloth as I said before. I just wanted to confirm my guess that the retract wires can bend so I will install the 7/16 Robo Struts with the retracts while the plane is apart its much easier that way.
Viper
Snoop, I will cover the retract wells and mounts with West Epoxy and balsa and ply rib doublers and glass cloth as I said before. I just wanted to confirm my guess that the retract wires can bend so I will install the 7/16 Robo Struts with the retracts while the plane is apart its much easier that way.
Viper
02-19-2005, 06:43 PM
#7
RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
I recall most of those posts also some time back but many of them forget to say they are landing on gravel, grass or asphalt or that they did a Porpoise demo down the runway. There are no bend-proof retracts. I still bend mine once in a while from a rough landing but its not often enough to replace them with something else.
If you can't land , then your going to bend a $20 pair just as easy as a $200 pair.
Viper, I use a bit of a shortcut and mix epoxy with Greatplanes milled fiberglass and just slop it on in their. Kind saves the use of cloth and works as well.
I have always kept a WM 40 size P51 on hand. My current one is the little Miss America with a Saito 100. A few years back I had one with a G90 up front. I had that thing a couple years until a switch or something failed. I was flying around full speed. I came around and dropped the gear and went around to land. On the back stretch, I lost it. No control and it was dead. That thing flew about a mile out in the desert near full speed when it went in, The was nothing left of that thing. However, my retracts were still mounted and secured in the immediate area.
If you can't land , then your going to bend a $20 pair just as easy as a $200 pair.
Viper, I use a bit of a shortcut and mix epoxy with Greatplanes milled fiberglass and just slop it on in their. Kind saves the use of cloth and works as well.
I have always kept a WM 40 size P51 on hand. My current one is the little Miss America with a Saito 100. A few years back I had one with a G90 up front. I had that thing a couple years until a switch or something failed. I was flying around full speed. I came around and dropped the gear and went around to land. On the back stretch, I lost it. No control and it was dead. That thing flew about a mile out in the desert near full speed when it went in, The was nothing left of that thing. However, my retracts were still mounted and secured in the immediate area.
02-19-2005, 07:10 PM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
Snoop, what you say is true I am not looking for "bend proof" landing after almost 20 years of flying I too bend a pair or a strut once in a while. I am not really worried about bending the stock gear I guess I really just want struts on my Mustang because the look is more scale and its cool to have
working oleos.
I have some milled glass that I bought from West Systems for their epoxy basically Microballoons but more refined they call it "Structual Additive" So I will mix some of that in but I will lay in a 2 oz piece of cloth. I may need to lower the gear plates so that the retracts get pulled up all the way into the wells. I have a pair of Rhom Airs I could use but they are 90 degree retracts and the Robarts are 85 degree retracts and Robo Strut ready they will just slip right in and tighten the screws. I need to paint them first.
Mustang Ace, I never knew the story behind Cripes A Mighty thats a real sad one. I am searching the net and my books for a blue nosed Mustang that I can print out decals for.
Viper
working oleos.
I have some milled glass that I bought from West Systems for their epoxy basically Microballoons but more refined they call it "Structual Additive" So I will mix some of that in but I will lay in a 2 oz piece of cloth. I may need to lower the gear plates so that the retracts get pulled up all the way into the wells. I have a pair of Rhom Airs I could use but they are 90 degree retracts and the Robarts are 85 degree retracts and Robo Strut ready they will just slip right in and tighten the screws. I need to paint them first.
Mustang Ace, I never knew the story behind Cripes A Mighty thats a real sad one. I am searching the net and my books for a blue nosed Mustang that I can print out decals for.
Viper
02-20-2005, 09:35 AM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
I mounted a pair of 85 degrees on the GSP Mustang a few years ago. I thought at the time it would off set the diheral of the wing and therefore look like they are straight down. Did not work, The gear looked like it was about to collapse all the time and actually i think more pressure was applied to it on landing. I then stuck to the 90's
02-20-2005, 04:37 PM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
LDM, I agree my WM 60 P51 is a real nice airplane and its got flaps. I am just going to replacw the mechanical gear with Robart pneumatics so I can have struts and then I am happy.
Snoop, it looks to me as if the gear are 85 degree so thats what I will order but I guess I should put a square on the gear when the down to see if they are truly 85degree and if not I can use my Rhom Airs and adapt the Robo Struts to them with the supplied adapters.
The Rhoms are only 5/32 wire gear but they hold up great.
Viper
Snoop, it looks to me as if the gear are 85 degree so thats what I will order but I guess I should put a square on the gear when the down to see if they are truly 85degree and if not I can use my Rhom Airs and adapt the Robo Struts to them with the supplied adapters.
The Rhoms are only 5/32 wire gear but they hold up great.
Viper
02-21-2005, 12:19 AM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
Well I went out to measure my retracts in the WM P51 and you where close Snoop they are almost 90 degree retracts something like 88-90 degree. I am keeping the stock retracts for two reasons first is that they seem pretty tough and they have 3/16" struts. And secondly is that there is no room in the wheel well for struts, the wheels are already pulled up into the wells so tightly that the fiberglass wheel wells fiberglass cups have holes drilled in the center for the wheel collar that almost touches the top sheeting of the wing. I will take them out and epoxy the ribs and retract plates and put in some 2oz cloth and the structural Filler I got for the West Epoxy and reinforce the well So no struts on this bird I will have to build my Top Flight 1/5 scale P51 kit. Or maybe a smaller Corsair?
Viper
Viper
02-22-2005, 02:38 PM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
I am flying my Petie 2cnd with the stock gear. I did have a bad landing (Pilot error) and it tore the left retract out of the wing, with half of the internals. I got a replacement wing from Airborne and epoxied the retract mounts as recommended and have had no trouble since. The wire legs are soft and will bend. I fly off of grass, and I don't mean golf green style, and this past weekend had a leg bend on take off, a perfectly normal one, and I first noticed it because it did not fully retract. But the gear is serviceable and I have never had a malfuntion. I am using a Hitec retract servo which has good torque.
02-22-2005, 03:31 PM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
Well I emailed Century Jet Models to see if they had a set of pneumatic retracts with working struts to fit my Mustang and they sent me a picture of the retracts and struts that fit my plane. They also sent a picture of their 4 way adjustable air valve but I like the Robart adjustable retract valve.
Has anyone tried these gear in their Mustang? The picture that he sent is of the mechanical versions but the air retracts are the same except for the air rams of course. I am a little concerned about the struts and wheels getting pulled up into the wheel wells but I can make a pair of fiberglass retract doors that I can attach to the struts and I can make them with a small bubble for the struts so when the gear are up and the strut is not totally in the wheel well the doors should hide them. As long as the wheels get pulled up into the wells completely and I can do a little creative Dremel work on the center rib to make room for the struts and the sisscors part of the struts.
Thanks Viper
Has anyone tried these gear in their Mustang? The picture that he sent is of the mechanical versions but the air retracts are the same except for the air rams of course. I am a little concerned about the struts and wheels getting pulled up into the wheel wells but I can make a pair of fiberglass retract doors that I can attach to the struts and I can make them with a small bubble for the struts so when the gear are up and the strut is not totally in the wheel well the doors should hide them. As long as the wheels get pulled up into the wells completely and I can do a little creative Dremel work on the center rib to make room for the struts and the sisscors part of the struts.
Thanks Viper
02-23-2005, 12:27 AM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
Viper , the century gear may be to big. You need to check all the demensions of that gear before you buy .
I had the P47 gear and made a stupid mistake thinking I could put it in a 60 size bird , they were to deep .
However I love the CJ gear overall , I do agree that the robart air valve is simple and seems easier to use and adjust
I had the P47 gear and made a stupid mistake thinking I could put it in a 60 size bird , they were to deep .
However I love the CJ gear overall , I do agree that the robart air valve is simple and seems easier to use and adjust
02-23-2005, 01:11 AM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
LDM, I kind of thought the same thing but Bruce from CJM sent me the list of all the airplanes that his gear fit and the gear is listed as the correct gear for the plane But I will check the depth thanks I hadn't thougt about depth.
I will consider just installing the Robo Struts on the stock retracts.
Thanks Viper
I will consider just installing the Robo Struts on the stock retracts.
Thanks Viper
02-23-2005, 07:42 AM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
A friend of mine has some struts that he had originally intended to go in the H9 P-51. He installed the mechanical gear without. If anyone is interested, send me a pm and I will get the details from my buddy.
02-23-2005, 03:54 PM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
LDM, I think you might be right the gear that CJM may not fit into my wing. I think that since the stock gear are pretty substantial and have a screw to take up the play like my Supra retracts for my EZ planes I can take out any side to side play in the retracts. I am going to keep them and try to install a pair of Robo Struts and I will get the JR low profile retract servo thats about 240 oz of torque so it should pull the struts up just fine. I would like to keep them so I will try that/
Thanks For alll the Help guys I appreciate it. I just got in from working in my shop getting it all organized and I am going back out to work on my main bench,
Thanks Again Viper
Thanks For alll the Help guys I appreciate it. I just got in from working in my shop getting it all organized and I am going back out to work on my main bench,
Thanks Again Viper
02-25-2005, 10:33 PM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
ORIGINAL: Scar
I'll take issue with that one. My WM Ultimate 30 has very soft wire landing gear, and they bend back after several times taxiing and landing. After more than 250 flights, I have probably bent them back forward about fifty times. Love the plane, it lands easily and softly. The gear's just a well-reported flaw.
Good luck,
Dave Olson
ORIGINAL: Snoop Doggy Bag
I have and have built many WM planes for friends and never had any problems with the stock wire gear. If they bend too much or break, thats a skill level problem, not structure as you can push the gear through the wing of any plane if you want too. <snip>
I have and have built many WM planes for friends and never had any problems with the stock wire gear. If they bend too much or break, thats a skill level problem, not structure as you can push the gear through the wing of any plane if you want too. <snip>
Good luck,
Dave Olson
Mike
02-25-2005, 10:47 PM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
Mike yep thats true I dont know how strong the stock retracts and struts are I want to install pneumatic retracts because I want struts. I am going to probably use Robart retracts and Robo Struts and just make any mods I need to before I epoxy the wing together. I think the plane will look much better on struts and look more scale both landing and during takeoff.
Viper
Viper
02-25-2005, 10:52 PM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
Viper dont get me wrong i really like CJ gear but many of the desings are built for the Top Flight Gold additions and they are just a little to big for some of the ARFs .
I am starting to built a Pica 1/6 P40 , on the CJ website , Bruce has the same tail wheel set up for the 1/5 scale as he does for the 1/6 . I think he figures a modler will just make it work and I dont take real issue with that but 1/5 is not 1/6 scale , there is a differance .
I am starting to built a Pica 1/6 P40 , on the CJ website , Bruce has the same tail wheel set up for the 1/5 scale as he does for the 1/6 . I think he figures a modler will just make it work and I dont take real issue with that but 1/5 is not 1/6 scale , there is a differance .
02-25-2005, 11:19 PM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
LDM, I really appreciate you giving me that information. Buying new retracts and struts is a considerable outlay of cash so I want to get it right the first time. The Robart 551 RS Robo Strut ready pneumatic retracts and the 663 L&R Offset P51 style Robo Struts should work for me without a whole lot of modification. I will need to Dremel out the center rib so the strut has room to retract so I will reinforce it on both sides with 1/8 ply and 2oz glass and West Epoxy. Then I will epoxy and glass the whole retract bay and probably add some triangle stock under the retract plates.
I have my shop about ready to start building (Talk About allot of work)[:@] So I will work on the Mustang this weekend and will order my retracts and struts and air control kit this weekend but I need to call and see if Tower has it instock.
I emailed Kelvin at Keleo exhaust http://www.keleo-creations.com/ About having him build a set of stacks for my OS 120 Surpass and the plane. He says he can do it but might need my engine so I will see.
Thanks Viper
PS: I Still have my Top Flight 1/5 built up kit P51 that I bashing into Dago Red this year also.
I have my shop about ready to start building (Talk About allot of work)[:@] So I will work on the Mustang this weekend and will order my retracts and struts and air control kit this weekend but I need to call and see if Tower has it instock.
I emailed Kelvin at Keleo exhaust http://www.keleo-creations.com/ About having him build a set of stacks for my OS 120 Surpass and the plane. He says he can do it but might need my engine so I will see.
Thanks Viper
PS: I Still have my Top Flight 1/5 built up kit P51 that I bashing into Dago Red this year also.
02-25-2005, 11:30 PM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
Glad I could help !!! Your list of planes and plans sounds like mine !!!LOL , I have so many projects on board .
The VQ P40 -half way done
The Bash of the Sportman avation P40 , I really need to finish this one before the Pica Build
A small GWS Corsiar all decked out with panel lines and brushless motor to toy around with .
I also have a 65" arc Model Tech p51 new in box, the quality is excellant , flaps , scale tail lines , got it when it was being discontinued about 4 years ago . so the list continues hahahh
The VQ P40 -half way done
The Bash of the Sportman avation P40 , I really need to finish this one before the Pica Build
A small GWS Corsiar all decked out with panel lines and brushless motor to toy around with .
I also have a 65" arc Model Tech p51 new in box, the quality is excellant , flaps , scale tail lines , got it when it was being discontinued about 4 years ago . so the list continues hahahh
02-25-2005, 11:43 PM
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RE: World Models 60 size P51D ARF Which Retracts?
I Know what you mean I have more projects than I can handle. I just finished building a 30 inch Ryan wood and foam sheeted wing Corsair that is getting glassed and painted and an 020 Astro brushless. I also have plans to do an electric conversion of an H9 Miss America. Its a beautiful Mustang and a good brushless conversion too.
First I need to get my retracts and struts and get them in. You know I do have one thing that I am not sure about? I thought I needed 85 degree retracts but the ones in my Mustang are 90 degree should I buy 90 degree Robarts then or should I get 85s I dont think it will make much difference unless they installed the retract mounts for 90 degree retracts ?
Thanks Viper
First I need to get my retracts and struts and get them in. You know I do have one thing that I am not sure about? I thought I needed 85 degree retracts but the ones in my Mustang are 90 degree should I buy 90 degree Robarts then or should I get 85s I dont think it will make much difference unless they installed the retract mounts for 90 degree retracts ?
Thanks Viper