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More progress on my Bates SBD!

Old 08-21-2004, 11:12 AM
  #476  
NE0
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

I think you are all correct to some degree. I believe the heavy wingloading, with a relatively high-bank turn and no rudder input bled the speed off and caused the stall. However, Dion is right, it just didn't fly clean and I believe there was something fundamentally wrong in the aerodynamics. Maybe a warped wing, non-symmetrical washout factor, bad incidence on wing/stab/or both. Who knows... but I don't think it was tailheavy.

This is one of the many reasons I'm not interested in rebuilding it. If I did, it would take many months or longer to get it back in fighting shape. Even then, it would be heavier than it is now due to repairs, never look as good as it did, and probably would still have all the same aerodynamic issues if not more. It just would never fly the way I wanted it to, so it's not worth puttling all that work back into it to be dissapointed again.

When I built this plane, I had a different job with a lot more time on my hands. I started a new job a few months ago and my building time has dropped from 40 hours a week to about 8 hours. At that rate, any new scale plane I do will take 4-5 times longer to complete. I'm just not going to put 10 years into a plane to see this happen again. For now, I'm going to stick to easy builds and ARFs until I'm a more experienced pilot. Big heavy warbird ARFs like the TF 51, Skyshark P40, etc may be in my immediate future. Even with those planes, I can add "my personal touch" to make them a step above the other ARFs in scale appearance.

I simply need more experience flying heavy warbirds and figuring out what makes a plane fly good and what will make it fly like a wild child. I'm not going to gain that experience on a 2000 hour project again... I learned my lesson. For now, it's fly, hunt, work and relax. Building is not even on my mind.

Tom
Old 08-21-2004, 01:25 PM
  #477  
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

Tom, I have one of the Top Flite 51 arfs and it is a great flying airplane. Just the thing to get into a larger heavier airplane. For what you get it is also relativly cheap. I have a ZDZ 40 in mine and it pulls it just great, also the Robart gear has given me no problem at all. Don
Old 08-21-2004, 03:36 PM
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

One of my good friends at our field has that 51, with a 3.7 in it! What's that... about 60cc? Man that thing screams. He flies it wide open ALL the time... unbelievable. Flies great, lands slow with flaps. I think I can get my 52cc running again with a little repair... might be a good match.

I'm still verly interested in the SkysharkRC P40 Warhawk, but apparently they're still having some problems working out the bugs in that new design...



Their web site says they're just not happy with the quality from outsourced component manufacturers and the plane is coming in 5-6 pounds heavier than they want. Been there, done that... don't want to go down that road. Hopefully they'll have good news in December like they said they hope to on their site. We'll see.

Tom
Old 08-21-2004, 04:14 PM
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

Tom, what is your "new" job. Still in the same field I presume? Only wondering as it is my field also.
Paul
Old 08-21-2004, 08:29 PM
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

Paul,

I'm a Multimedia Communications Specialist for a Lighting Manufacturing company now. Still in the same basic game, just a different industry and I don't have to do "printed" marketing anymore. Now I do only electronic/multimedia presentations, CDs, videos, DVDs, Flash, etc.. (no more brochures, direct mail, etc.)

This job allows me to get back in to some heavy duty electronic multimedia again, and even 3D animation (which is my favorite thing to do). I've been out of serious 3D animating and video for the past couple years and really missed it. Now I'm really having a ball at work and spend a lot more hours there.

Tom
Old 08-22-2004, 08:21 PM
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

Tom, glad to see you're working tightly in the niche you enjoy most. I do, by far, much more "print work" than new media stuff myself. It certainly has its' ups and downs.
Paul
Old 08-22-2004, 08:41 PM
  #482  
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

Tom,
I just reviewed your thread and saw the video. My hat is off to you for your attitude. She needed to fly and not be a "hanger queen". Your SBD will never be replaced for the reasons you stated. Thanks for sharing your talent and heart with us.

Will look forward to your next project when your ready


Pete
Old 08-23-2004, 02:48 PM
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

Paul,

Yeah, both print and multimedia each have their pros and cons. Getting new media to run right on "everyone's" PC can be a nightmare sometimes... too many variables. But, I've been doing the print stuff for about 25 years and am just plain tired of it.

Thanks Pete, glad you liked it. The time will come again, just not tomorrow. I'm gonna work my way back up to a "scale" level of projects first. Start with a big heavy warbird ARF, and work on my flying skills, then start easing myself back into the serious builds. Maybe some "consignment" detail jobs in the interim?

Cya,

Tom
Old 08-23-2004, 05:16 PM
  #484  
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

Hey Tom, maybe you could do Shrek III !!!
Old 08-23-2004, 06:22 PM
  #485  
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

LOL... a bit outa my league mate.

Tom
Old 08-23-2004, 06:45 PM
  #486  
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

hey you could put JG and crew into it, call it the adventures of Sniper 41 and the quest for the dasdarly jap ack ack gun lol

hehehehhehe
Old 01-21-2005, 01:28 PM
  #487  
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

NEO, I tried to access your site. 404'd. Whazzup?

edit--sorryl should have tried a bit harder. Bates SBD

So sorry to read you lost her. Shocked actually [] . At least you have great memories.
Old 01-21-2005, 04:02 PM
  #488  
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

You can access our new site at http://www.hangar37.com
Old 01-21-2005, 07:16 PM
  #489  
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

Try the new address Maudib listed above, the direct link to 41 Sniper is now...

http://www.hangar37.com/SBD/index.htm

I'll be pulling the old site down alltogether soon (and add a redirect)... just haven't gotten around to it.

Thanks,

Tom
Old 01-22-2005, 12:45 AM
  #490  
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

Hey Neo
You probably dont remember me but we were discussing gear for the Dauntless way back when. Well life got in the way and I never got started. The plans are now on the table and she is a go! I just wantd to thank you in advance for the great website full of Ideas and helpfull hints. The only problem is you are one heck of a tough act to follow!
Old 01-22-2005, 01:00 PM
  #491  
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

rdc,

Sure, I still remember you mate [8D]

Glad my site helped, but my act isn't that hard to follow... all you have to do is survive your maiden flight

Cya,

Tom
Old 01-27-2005, 05:51 PM
  #492  
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

Yea I cried when I saw it. I am going to let my 14 yearold do the maiden flight. It is sickening to watch him show me up. Man that plane was beautiful!
Old 01-27-2005, 10:45 PM
  #493  
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

Tom,
Real sorry about the SBD. It was a FABULOUS model. I had a Ziroli SBD as well as a Ziroli F4U. Both flew with opened canopies. As soon as I saw you taxiing out... I knew what did you in.
In the case of my SBD (kit designer has nothing to do with this). The canopies were in the fixed opened position. At cruise speed, the plane wandered all over the damn place(looked like yours was doing the same thing, nose kept "hunting" ). Constant pitching up and down, side to side. The plane was flyable, but it wasn't pretty.When I came off the throttle(during landing sequence), she calmed down and became predictable. Take offs were smooth as well because the plane was not at cruising speed.

My Corsair had an operable via Tx canopy. The plane flew rock steady with the canopy closed. It even flew well with it opened, IF IT WERE AT LANDING SPEEDS, NOT CRUISING SPEED!!!
I was flying it one day and all was fine. All the sudden the damn plane gets ugly. She's a real ***** to fly, can't figure it out. So of course I set up for landing. On my down wind the plane is getting a little better. On base... better yet. On my final the plane is fine and I'm starting to relax. As I'm touching down I see it...
YUP! The canopy was open. Here, I accidentally hit the canopy switch some where along the way. In subsequent flights I played around with flying with canopy open\closed at different speeds.

It was the experience I had with my Corsair that made me recognize what was going on with my Dauntles, and what I saw in your flight video of your SBD.
When that damn canopy is open, it allows turbulence in the now gapping hole known as the cockpit. The air gets in there and gets under the canopy making it act like a drag chute. Every attitude the plane was in at every speed caused the plane to do some goofy stuff. Turns, whether coordinated or not caused quite an uneasy feeling. The plane is not aerodynamically "clean" with the canopy open, causing alot of turbulent air to get in there and reak havoc with a flight path.
My point here Tom is... You were at cruising speed, bank'n and yank'n in a heavy airplane with an open canopy. It was that turbulance in the turn that grabbed that airplane and made it play some music you didn't know how to dance to. It seems as though one of the first things inexperienced pilots do when they get in trouble is pull on the elevator thinking that's whats going to make them go "up" and out of trouble when it's that very thing that gets them deeper in it. I'm not knocking you, I did it too.
Respectfuly submitted.

Get back on that horse.

This has been my experience.
Regards,

Dave (Mustang51)
Old 01-27-2005, 11:23 PM
  #494  
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

Dave,

That's really interesting about the turbulence from the open canopy. I noticed that mine (Ziroli) wanders some at cruise speeds unless there is very little wind. If I throttle back it seems better. I don't know why I didn't think of it before but it makes sense.[:-] I thought maybe my CG was a little off, but the model is as solid as a rock when landing, even in crosswinds.

Based on what you made me realize, I think I will close at least the front part of the canopy and see if it makes a difference. I know it looks cool to have the canopy open when landing but I'd rather have a smooth flying plane at all speeds.

Thanks for the tip!!

Jim
Old 01-27-2005, 11:26 PM
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

Oh, and Tom, if you're out there... I hope you're at least contemplating your next masterpiece!!

Jim
Old 01-28-2005, 12:26 AM
  #496  
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

That's a very interesting observation. I have many flights now on this little SBD, all with the canopies open. I haven't noticed anything "fishy" about it though . . . Not saying you're wrong, just what my experience has been. . .

Mark
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Old 01-28-2005, 11:29 AM
  #497  
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

Thanks for the input guys... certainly something to think about and makes a lot of sense. Kind of confusing though, as the full scale plane flew canopy open all the time, and I doubt the pilots had this trouble. Also, I've seen many other 1/5 scale SBDs compete canopy open (Al Kretz, Kent Walters, etc.)... but never asked them if they have this problem at cruise speeds. I would think it would be very hard to consistently have the highest flight score (like Ken) if your plane was "hunting" at cruise speeds?

At any rate, you can bet my next bird will NOT have the canopy open... at least not in flight!

Tom
Old 01-28-2005, 11:38 AM
  #498  
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

Hi Tom,

What you say it true, maybe the plane just isn't designed to fly at our model speeds. Even when we think we are flying them at scale speed they still are too fast. I'm going to tape a piece of cardboard over my canopy opening and see if it makes a difference, before I tear up my telescoped canopy!

BTW, What's your next project? If you've been looking at RCscalebuilder you know what mine are.

Jim
Old 01-28-2005, 07:15 PM
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

Hiya Jim, sound like you're doing the right thing by testing... hopefully that will tell ya something.

No projects planned (scale) for a while. I'm working on simple projects now... all giant scale 3D planes. I have a Chip Hyde Vision that I've stripped to put my own covering design on... I'll probably start covering it next week. After that, I have an Extreme Flight Yak on a slow boat from China coming in. Both are ARFs, so I can get them done in time for Spring flying season. All I have left to fly is a little profile now, so I've gotta get some planes together fast so I can have some fun this summer. I don't want to spend the summer locked up in the shop building planes again!

I changed jobs last summer, so I don't have half as much time to build as I did when I built the SBD. I'm lucky to get 6 or 8 hours a week in now, so a 1000 to 2000 hour project would take me very, very long. Limited time and limited cash are driving my building choices now [] This year is going to be about getting some stick time... not bench time.

Take care,

Tom
Old 01-12-2006, 08:26 AM
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Default RE: More progress on my Bates SBD!

For those of you who have been asking what happened to the pics in my thread, and, where did my SBD site go... I have moved the SBD pages to my new site at:

[link=http://www.tompierce.net]www.tompierce.net[/link]

You'll need the Flash 8 plug-in to view now.

[link=http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/download.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash]Flash 8 plug-in[/link]

Cheers,

Tom

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