butlern

My Feedback: (15)

So back to the "thin rib." I used this reinforcing technique on my Meister 109, because the wheels barely fit in that wing, too. The easiest way to do this is to bend the 2-56 wire to match the contour of the rib, then use either a small file (picture came out fuzzy, sorry) or the sharp end of the 2-56 wire itself to gouge the top of the rib. The goal is to make a recess along the top of the rib for the wire to drop into. Once all was right, this wire is just tacked in with CA.

After admiring the wing for a little while, it was time to move onto the top sheeting on the outer panels. I found a few photos, but I still need to label and resize them for posting.

Be in touch soon.

How are you coming along, Chic?

F4u5

My Feedback: (81)

Avenger is looking good. Something else I found on mine was that it tended to fly like a turkey in the beginning. It wanted to waggle from tip to tip. At first, I thought it may be tail heavy, so I added some more nose weight. I couldn't get rid of the tip to tip wandering/waddle. Then I thought that maybe the stall slot was creating turbulence over the ailerons. Turns out it may have been the case. I put some clear packing tape over the bottom of the slots to cancel any flow thru the slot, and it stayed there for 5 years without ever coming off. From the top, you would have never known. I found that the tape cured the wing waddle from the time I applied it. Just FYI and something to look for if you see this condition. Keep up the good work. An Avenger is a sight to behold at a fly-in.

Jeff

redtail

My Feedback: (15)

Noah, your so on time. Just came in from the shop feeling pretty good and saw your posts. Especially knowing that I'm going to school off your build. Just finished framing up the outter wing panel. Will work the rest of the week to install wing tube, flap panels, leading edge filler, etc. Will not put the full leading edge on until I see when you do it. Your build is really looking "sick". Don't get me wrong, that is the phrasing that the kids are now saying for "outstanding, wow, unbelieveable, kool, too much, awesome, ....... you get it now right. Beautiful work, great idea on the wire supporting the wheel rib. Does not look like there is alot of spare room in that wheel well. A fellow is shooting some photos of the Avenger I am modeling. It is out in a Palm Springs, CA museum. He sent me a couple of photos and said, that is one giant size airplane. I smiled and told him you bet it is. I have some free airline miles to use up so I just may have to take a trip during spring break just to go see the full scale airframe myself. Here is where I am. Chic

redtail

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One more wing photo and a "By The Way" [8D]

butlern

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Looks great, Chic! And thanks for the kind words regarding my build. I'm satisfied with how it's coming out so far.

Yeah, we could probably push the span ever further by adding larger blocks to the tips!

Nah, 108" should be enough.

I am waiting to add the leading edge to the outer panels until I add the leading edge to the center section... and according to my read of the instructions, we're supposed to wait until we mount the center section to the fuse before we add the leading edge to the center section. So, we're a ways off from that.

I got some good news today... my motor has finally been shipped, so I can now jump into framing the fuse. I wanted to have the motor before I started the crutch and firewall/front formers, just in case there will be some modifications/special reinforcements required.

I'll post some pictures of the layout this weekend (assuming the motor gets here by then).

Jeff, thanks for the heads-up on the leading edge slots and the weird flight characteristics. I'll look for it (hopefully this summer/fall)! I have always planned on going to Owatonna, but I never seem to make it there... this year for sure. It's only a few hours away from me here in Iowa City. If the Avenger is ready (however unlikely), I'll bring it up for you to inspect (and hopefully admire). If not this summer then next summer for sure. I've always admired your projects and your skills. I was especially impressed with the Polykarpov you built. Sorry you had some trouble with it. Does the plane still exist, or was it a loss?

Be in touch soon. Still sorting through pictures and whatnot.

Regards,

Noah

F4u5

My Feedback: (81)

Please come Noah...and get that Avenger done!. You can put it up with Opie's Avenger. He has one my size....his still survives. I'm sure it will be a great machine. You guys make me long for another......

Jeff

butlern

My Feedback: (15)

Found a few more pictures that might be helpful, Chic.

Below appears the wing with outer panel bottoms and center section sheeted. Before I sheeted the center section, I first built-up some support balsa for the sheeting around the retract cut-outs. Sorry I forgot to shoot a picture, but there is at least one below that shows some of the balsa sticks (and their relative placement around the retract) from the top after the bottom sheeting was trimmed and before the top sheeting was applied. Anyway, the purpose was to simply support the sheeting around the cutouts. To do this, I installed the gear and then just placed sticks around the gear where I thought the sheeting would be cut. Once in place, I removed the gear and then used the sanding bar to get the balsa sticks to match the contour of the plywood ribs. After that, I sheeted the center section.

All-in-all, it came out pretty well. The wing joint is not perfect, but close enough to be easily made perfect with a little massaging and perhaps a bit of filler or epoxy/microballoons.

I also decided not to use a single servo driving the two inner flap sections. I was spending too much time and effort trying to find all the components to make the torque-tube, control-arms, bushings and all that business. So, as with the aileron and outer flaps servos, these two surfaces will have their own dedicated servo mounted to a plate and screwed to the bottom of the wing. This will also make maintenance easier, as all the linkages will be exposed and within easy reach. While I'm trying to do a good job with this build, my ultimate goal is to have a dependable, well-flying, giant-scale Avenger, not a top gun entrant!

All about making it simple and reliable (of course, I'll quickly be labeled a hypocrite as soon as I post pictures of the motor installation!).

UPS Tracking says my motor will arrive next Tuesday... so for now, I'm just laying out the crutch and making lots of measurements from the plans.

Be in touch after I make some progress on the fuse, or if I find some more pictures that help with the wing.

regards,

Noah

Check6

My Feedback: (427)

Noah, Awesome build. Looks like I will be buying planes from you in the future .LOL Great job on a difficult subject. Keep up the good work.
Later,
Fred

butlern

My Feedback: (15)

Fred, thanks for checking in. Always good to hear from you!

I already told you that as soon as I finish the Ziroli P-40, you're going to be buying it back from me!

Keep in touch.

Noah

redtail

My Feedback: (15)

Noah, keep the great photos coming. This weekend, I could possibly have the wings bottom area covered. Get the pivot dowels in, 2nd wing tube in and set, great tip on supporting the sheeting around the L/G cutout. What do you think about the wing slots, I think they are kool and will at least leave them functional until after several flights. I think I'm going to also run individual servos for the flaps. I still want to fly this puppy at the Nats next year for myself and my friend I just lost. The engine for the Avenger was donated by him. Anyway, things are slowly moving in the right direction. Great build Noah. Chic

butlern

My Feedback: (15)

Hi, Chic.

Glad to hear that you're still working away out East. Have you been in touch with Frank? I need to shoot him an email. We all need to keep in touch, even if it's not through this forum.

I will leave the leading edge slots, too. If I get weird waggle in flight, at least I'll have a pretty good idea why that might be (thanks to Jeff), as well as a simple solution that retains the upper wing surface scale details.

I know your friend is watching over you. Keep up the good work.

Best,

Noah

butlern

My Feedback: (15)

Hi, Chic (and anyone else that reads this!)

So I will receive my motor on Tuesday, but last night I spent several hours measuring from the plans and drawing new plans for the front of the airframe. Everthing looks like it'll work now, although I will have to have a machinist friend of mine turn a hub extension so the cylinder bank on the RCS/Moki 150 will clear the tapering cowl. Aside from that, and based on my measurements and new plans for F1 through F4, I think that it's going to work out pretty well.

Anyway, after I sorted the business end of the Avenger out, I then got to checking the PCK parts against Charlie's drawings. Most everything was fine, although a few stringer- and crutch-notches had to be re-worked on a few of the formers.

This afternoon, I started on the crutch. Charlie's plans call for a balsa crutch, but PCK provided spruce instead, so I just went ahead with the spruce. First step was to splice two pieces of 1/2 x 1/4 spruce to get enough length for the full crutch. To do this, I cut an angle across each piece to be spliced and then tacked them together with CA. Once set, I then drilled through the joint and then pounded a toothpick to pin them and hopefully get some more strength at the joint. After that was done, the cross-members were added. These are just 1/8 x 1/2 balsa. While the crutch was still pinned to the board, I ran a sanding bar down the crutch to ensure all the balsa cross-members were even with the spruce (another advantage of using spruce for the outer splines). Last step was to transfer the former locations from the plans to the crutch.

Next, I accurately cut 5 pieces of 2x4 lumber to 9 inches in length. These serve as supports for the elevated crutch. Instead of working over the plans, as Charlies suggests in his instructions, I simply drew some reference lines on my building surface... one long, straight line to demarcate the fuse centerline, and a few 90 degrees to the centerline. At one of those perpendicular lines, I tacked two of the 2x4 supports to my building board. By doing this, I was able to clamp former F10 to the supports, and F-10 is where I started gluing. As long as the 2x4 supports are perpendicular to a flat building surface, then having the reference lines and tacking the supports to the building surface makes lining up and gluing very easy. It also helps make sure that the first former is absolutely perfectly aligned.

Right, then I just started sliding the formers on the crutch. Each was glued after verifying it was vertical, 90 to the crutch. I then began to fill in other material (F-19 turret floor, F-22 cockpit side-supports, etc...). I also added a little bit of 1/4 triangle stock to help support the ball-turret floor, as well as a bit to support F-22 where it abuts F-8.

I stopped short of gluing in F-14 at the rear, and F-3 at the front. These and the adjacent formers have not yet been glued because they all will require some modification to accomodate the Sierra tailwheel and the motor I've selected. I want to have the actual motor in hand before I start modifying F-3 and F-1 and I need to do some more thinking about the Sierra tail wheel installation. The Sierra tailwheel is considerably larger than the Robart 160WC that Charlie used, so I'm going to have to make some changes back there. I know that Jim (Gibb), who also is building this Avenger and has posted to this thread, has installed the Sierra tailwheel. I PM'ed him today for some feedback. Hopefully he'll check back to the site soon. The installation should not be a major pain, but it would certainly be more efficient to get his thoughts and perspective on the matter.

That's it for now. I'll poster more later this week or weekend, depending on when I can get back to work on the plane. I also should add that Charlie Kellogg has done a teriffic job engineering his design. It all goes together very well and it's clear how carefully he has considerded his design. I am particularly impressed with how the wing center section is locked into the fuse. Simple, yet very clever!

How did you come along this weekend, Chic?

Best,

Noah

All Day Dan

My Feedback: (5)

Thanks Noah. It looks like a great start to a detailed build. Dan.

butlern

My Feedback: (15)

Hey, Dan. Thanks for checking back with us.

Yeah, I'm happy to provide as much information as I can in my posts. It takes a bit of time, but I like doing it. And although I completely understand that I'm simply describing techniques that are well-known, I think the info and pictures certainly could prove useful for anyone else who decides to take on the Kellogg Avenger. I think that Chic appreciates my posts, too. Right, Chic?!?!

This is only my 3rd kit-built model, and I owe just about everything I've learned to the numerous participants of RCU. It's a great resource.

Noah

redtail

My Feedback: (15)

Hey you crazed builder. The work looks beautiful as I expected it would be. Your full description will certainly give me a highway to follow toward success. Today I put both of the dowels in the left outter/center section and used the same system to secure the wing panel to the center section as Jim used on page 7 of this thread. He went through the landing gear/wheel well and used two bolts to secure the wing. Will do the same this week for the right wing panel. I put my landing gear in and made some cuts to allow the wheel to fit in well. Then did some planning to decide how I'm going to frame in the wheel well area with side panels to hide the ribs, etc. Playing around with the landing gear strut covers, seems like the wood is kind of thick. I'm thinking of using thin plywood instead with fake supports framing it (per pictures of the struts). Weather was good so went walking along the Potomac with the wife and we both then visited with my friends widow.

Agree with you that Charlie worked his butt off designing this bird. A few burps along the way which have all been worked out to perfection. Would like to build his SANDY after the Meister P-47 and Meister Zero I want to build. I like the idea of building the crutch over a reference line. Will certainly follow your lead on this build, many thanks for your assistance. I have the Sierra tailwheel now so I'll also be interested with Jim's response and your working the problem. Take care. Chic

redtail

My Feedback: (15)

You better believe I look forward to your posts. Keeps me from making alot of boo-boos. Besides, your not a bad fellow to take directions from. All of you professors are just alike. You like being heard - the difference YOU my friend, always have something very worth while to say. Thank god for you. Chic

butlern

My Feedback: (15)

Hey, Chic.

Glad you had a good weekend.

I also used Jim's method for securing the outer panels to the center section. Instead of metal bolts and blind nut, I actually glued a bit of maple to the inside of W-6 that was tapped for 1/4x20 bolt. I have further hardened the wood with thin CA and I plan to use a nylon bolt. I hate metal bolts when it comes to keeping wings in place... I've seen a few vibrate out. I think that nylon will be plenty strong, as the "pulling" forces should be minimal. It's my belief that the forces will be shear, and that that anti-rotation pins will take care of that.

I also agree with you regarding the strut covers... they are thick! Depending on how they lay down on the bottom of the wing, I may still use them. If they don't match the contours, then I'll likely just lay up my own with glass and epoxy resin.

Charlie has generated an impressive kit with the Avenger. I've been eye-balling Charlie's Skyraider... but I have too many projects right now. It'll have to wait until the Avenger and my Ziroli P-40 are finished and flying. I keep biting off more than I can chew. I can't seem to shake the "I want one of everything" phenomenon.

Talk to you soon.

Noah

redtail

My Feedback: (15)

Hey, hey, hey, I just reread your post and what is this I read RCS150 You lucky dog, whoooooo, wow, I'm jealous. That is too dog gone kool. The sound coming from that cowl should be truly impressive. Whooooo, I'm excited for ya. I thought I had a good birthday (that got me the gear, etc.) boy, do send a photo or two with that puppy inside the Avenger cowl. You lucky man. One day I'll get a round engine. I'm going to use your idea of the 1/4 x20 nylon bolt instead of the metal bolts. Chic

butlern

My Feedback: (15)

I sold a BUNCH of stuff (including 4 airplanes) to finance the motor... it's a damn expensive contraption. Even though I took the plunge, I still think they are about the biggest rip-off imaginable!

Let's hope it'll all be worth it.

I have a contact in Colorado who has TONS of experience with the Moki radials... he said he would help me through any potential issues. I know they're a lot of maintenance, but I've always wanted to give one a go. And I will soon have an airframe that will be worth the "investment" (well, I know the Avenger is a long way from being done... you know what I mean).

Regards,

Noah

Firebar

My Feedback: (3)

Noah
The Avenger is really looking great. I also wish that I had an RCS engine for my Avenger but that isn't going to happen. I am planning to take my Avenger to Toledo. Are any of you going to the Toledo Show? It would be great to meet and talk about Avengers.

Charlie

redtail

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Hey Charlie, I agree Noah is really making great progress. I'm a few steps behind him but working again on the airframe. Frank has not abandoned the project, he is taking care of personal issues. As he so eloquently stated, "I'll Be Back". Jim, I used your method of securing the outter wing panels. Noah, I used your nylon bolt method. Both worked great. Access is through the open wheel well. Will submit photo this evening. Charlie, Noah and I are viewing your SPAD kit as a later project. For me it would be number 3 in que. We were thinking about a 75% discount on the kit cost. We have also decided to use thinner strut covers, maybe even f/glass covers. I stopped going to Toledo two years ago. Got tired of the hotel cost, requiring you to pay for three nights to stay in the connected building. A great show none the less. Bring home the hardware Charlie for the Avenger boys. Sounds like a street gang or car club. Noah, I'll holler at you soon. Chic

redtail

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Noah, Frank, Charlie, Jim, forgot to tell you. The Royal Navy Tarpoon that I am modelling is at the Palm Springs Air Museum. A buddy of mine took some photos for me that has inspired me to use some air miles to personally go see this bird myself and talke some more photos of it. What a beautiful airplane. He said to me, do you know how big that airplane is......................... I smiled and said "YES". You can see from the first page, second posting, the color scheme of the aircraft. Sooo, looks like Spring Break is a go for me to visit Palm Spring, CA. It will be tough Noah and Frank, still shovelling that snow and all, but someone has to do it. [8D] Chic

redtail

My Feedback: (15)

Hey guys, trust me, I am working again. Slow yes, but I'm back at it. Here are several shots of how I am securing the wing panels to the center section. Where rib #6 is mated with #5 to form the "V" at the right and left edge of the center section, I glued a V-shaped hardwood block into the formed "V". The hardwood solidifies the V-formed by the ribs and provides extra meat for the threads to bit into. An extra hardwood piece is glued to the inside of rib #5 to further provide thread biting material. I drilled and tapped for a 1/4 - 20 nylon bolt. Ran CA into the threads to harden up the threads. The bolt is accessed through the strut channel when the L/gear is down (open). A short screwdriver works very well. The nylon bolt really secures the wing panels. I'm moving on. Thought you get a laugh from my Expedition EL license plate. When you get my age, being out after dark is not safe. Chic

redtail

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Next set of photos.

redtail

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Enjoy the laugh.