RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

Misha - the 3D effects on the cockpit are fabulous....did you paint this yourself or is this a readily available printed sheet? Not as good as a full cockpit, but a huge improvement over my plans to just paint the surface area black...and sorry if you covered this detail in a previous post and I missed it.

LDM - basic aerodynamic physics that cannot be disputed....but for me, (and this is only my opinion...I am not trying to convert anyone else to my way of thinking), if I wanted an airplane to fly like a trainer, I'd build a trainer and apply stars/bars, meatballs or swastikas. Heavier wingloadings require different skills and I lik/thrive the challenge. Don't get me wrong, I don't intentionally build heavy, but heavy doesn't bother me either. And, in the case of the CMP 120 Zero, my flying example is powered by a Saito 125, weighs in at 17 lbs dry and it takes off, flies and lands like a trainer....has no bad habits...floats and floats and floats...and in my opinion, is not too heavy. I like the 120 Zero so much, I bought a 2nd to be powered by a DLE-20 and I have added flaps, (among other mods), to provide better control over deceleration. Anyway, those are just my personal preferences and what/how I enjoy flying. Heavy vs. light only affects the envelope...and as with any aircraft, the pilot needs to learn the capability envelope and fly it within those boundaries.

I agree, this is a discussion and not an argument, as an argument would indicate there's a right and wrong....and in this case, an effort byone to convince everyone else what they "should enjoy"....I just thought I'd toss in my opinions as what I enjoy flying is different than what I understand you enjoy. To each their own and embrace diversity!

Happy flying, all.

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

Looking forward to it, hope you like them.

misha034 You are making this one a work of art for sure!


While I don't agree about the trainer thing, the challenge for me is in the building and not the flying, I want that to be easy because it’s to time consuming and expensive to crash! I build all my scale planes to be as light as possible but still have serious detail, like I said that is the challenge. Anybody can install 15 servo's in the most convenient location, but figuring out the linkages of minimal servo's as far forward as possible is an awesome challenge. Also knowing how strong to build something without adding excess weight is an art, it's the engineers art. This Zero is a perfect example! It is encouraging that your Zero flies so well, I'm going to try and make mine somewhere between 12.5lbs to 13.5lbs. Right now with everything installed less finish, battery and nose weight I'm at 8.9lbs. I can't see that doubling, it seems insane to me! I'll show my glassing technique for those that have not seen it, very easy and extremely light weight.

I wanted to show how I got all 4 control surfaces on the wing working with two servo's and one of those servo's is ahead of the CG. I used "Flight Skin" for my flaps so they won't warp and can be kept very light and only need painting, no prep work. I think I saved some serous weight with this mod! I still have to do some cleanup work, so the inner flap area is not very pretty.

But you are correct L16pilot, everyone do what makes you happy, these are only my opinions and everyone has their own, it's fun to discuss things and I also can learn a thing or two along the way!

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

Let me see what you sent for cockpit stuff and then we'll make a deal, sound like a plan?

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

here it is. You have to go to any digital printing shop and print it . You can use ordinary paper label, but I have PVC label that have better UV resistance (will not fade to white on sun)

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

I was afraid you were going to say that lol

please keep in mind the cockpit parts were a gift so please don't feel obligated i know that if nothing else time is money, and Im sure whatever your asking would be more then fair so let me know

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

"Also knowing how strong to build something without adding excess weight is an art, it's the engineers art"
I agree 100% my CMP 71" Fw190 ,Sierra retracts all around , airpowered sliding canopy ,full pilot with servo powered turning head , scale flying surfaces and details , riviots , full scratch built interior 14.5lbs . All servos on the wings have custome built servo boxes with internal 4-40 rods exiting in scale position ,the planning to keep it all up front was more difficult then the build .
trust me its not a trainer with warbird stickers , my point was meant litterally lol I mean really stickers on a trainer make a warbird ???

Anyway in respect for the original post CMP120 zero ,I will bow out and get back on subject .
I am really glad to see the bashing continue on the CMP arfs, its really showing the talent on this website that exist in the arf community .

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

Hey guys i thought i would add some personal thoughts and agree with both of you, unfortunately Im new to this whole scale thing as a whole

what i did was follow a few basics I've learned on these forums build it light but build it strong keeping everything as far forward as possible stick a slightly bigger then recommended engine up front make sure your got the cg correct regardless of weight and hope for the best!


God i hope this works! Lol

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

Luke - I completely agree with your comments above....but my point was not to promote excessive use of glue, building without regard for weight compromises or anything else for that matter.... there seemed to be a growing fear of final weight with the CMP 120 Zero...and my point was to not be afraid of a 17 or 18 lb Zero just because the box suggests 12 lb. It's a great flying airplane, period. I also really enjoy the building/engineering aspect and...strange as it may seem, my CMP Zero #1 is my first ARF in 33 years of flying RC...(my Zero #2 under construction is my 2nd ARF[8D])...and the "builder" side of me evaluated what I liked and didn't like about #1 and made the appropriate changes on #2, including glassing the wooden structures, beefing the gear mounts, adding flaps, (1 servo), changing from the A6M5-32 to the A6M3-32 and enlarging the elevator surface area 20%. Unfortunately, I'm too far along on the build to incorporate your tailwheel...That woulda been cool.,,,but I'm still toying with the idea...;)...and like the tailwheel, there have been volumes of great ideas shared on this thread, (thanks Zero322 for starting it!),

Misha - Thanks for the cockpit link and file...too cool...love it!

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

I'll admit that when I saw those final weights I was actually going to get rid of my plane, so thanks for calming me down!

Welcome back to the madness my friend! And thanks for your valuable input on this plane, it has been very helpful. You know you want the scale tail wheel, I still owe you guys a build on it, I will post it here soon. I just love the way the wheel looks, for something so simple it sure adds a lot to this plane. If you need some help or PC board just let me know and I'll see if I can get you started on the build.

I'm really predictable! lol I'll shoot you a PM when I get a chance.

LDM, thanks for your input into the discussion. I find that lighter planes have a much greater range of performance, and are capable of much more scale like flight. So I think we agree on all points. Given what I have heard about this CMP Zero, I am very curious to get it in the air and see how it does.

You should do just fine! I'm going to try something different though, I'm using the smallest lightest engine possible, but I've been at this for a long time!

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

not starting anything here ( or a least don't mean too), but I find that the heavier the Bird is... results in much
more scale like performance/flights. I do know Lou likes em' light. :D

for me anyways, whatever it ends up weighing... well so be it.

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

hey guys. 46 since my maiden and i cannot stop thinking of what went wrong. Firstly my zero 60 made her emergency landing with damages to the cowl (few minor cracks) and landing gear(ripped the block right out of the left gear). Overall fuse is good and wing intact. Did my pre flight check and all went well. Took off with a slight crosswind but maintained her straight on the runway. 10 meters(half throttle and she was up) off the ground she banked to the left and started bouncing all over(maintaining between hlf throttle and 1/4th). Got her head wind and maintained her level for few seconds till i decided to take her back to land. She was flipping all over with constant resistance as she was forcing to go left and dive. Again flipped all over ( heavy left bank despite correcting my trims and i countered my elevator as she kept trying to dive left). Managed to get her down 100 yards away but i'll have to say she was a handful.<div>She weighs at 8.1 pounds and running on an OS 65 AX. Did the CG at 100 mm as per instruction manual.</div><div>Where did i go wrong?? i added 120 grams to the firewall to level her out with a slight nose heavy and yet i still got the flipping/jumpy move.</div><div>Flew on low rate (Aileron =60% Elevator=60%rudder=80%), expo was on (Aileron=+20Elevator=+15Rudder=+15).</div><div>Just fixed her up and plan to get her up again tomorrow. Any tips? is anything missing on my setup? any mistakes i made(first guess is i may have put too much expo)is my CG right? . Assuming world models recommendation is 100mm@weight of 7.5 lbs (based on .61 recommendation) am i too heavy? i figured that since im using .65 engine, power would have compansated for the extra weight. Would appreciate the advice....</div><div>Taimoor</div>

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

I would check you CG vs plans , on the smaller CMPs the CG is typically off per plans . Do you know how to do the 25% of mac calculation ? I would start there

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

Do not fly at the cg set at 100mm that is way tail heavy. .........On the smaller zero you have my personal experience is that it should be set at 85mm, make sure your balancing it inverted with retract extended the through setting should be to manufacture spec

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

I guess it comes down to your idea or definition of scale performance. I know that most of the flying I see of light weight warbirds is pretty pathetic, but they can fly much more realistically than a overweight plane if you are a good pilot. Scale/realistic flight for me is flying smooth and slower, most warbird flying of the WWII kind are actually breaking the scale sound barrier on their low passes!:D But like I said, I highly recommend people do what makes them happy.

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

Hey buddy you've been a little quite lately, i would love to see your recent progress any chance you could be persuaded to post some pic?

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

again in respect to the Zero post , and trying to keep on subject , unfortunitly for me I own 9 CMP planes lol . Now when so many were bashing them verbally,I was buying and flying becuase small things like control horns and lack of scale (for me ) could easily be tweeked , fixed and made to my own taiste.
I personally dont want a plane that flys scale, I want a plane that flys well . If my plane flys well with no bad habbits I can easily make it fly scale to most with a decerning eye.
I have been to more warbird meets then I wish to count and I can tell you I have seen some heavy birds loaded way beyond the norm of skill needed to fly them. So you know wha happens , the take offs are less then scale 75% of the time as well as the landings . Once in the air , well that is a differant matter but in many cases airspeed is beyond what scale would be in normal circumstances.
I never quite get this quote correct , but Dave Platt said something like "its better to have your model look correct then be correct" . At times very good designer, engineer planes in the following manner,light wing loading, great airfoils , excellant ground handeling, and sound structures. I found in my earlier years before I took off to raise my family,that I built everything to scale. (in reality standoff scale) . What I found was I was compromising performance in return for scale equity. You pay for this in the stress level at the field (at leaste for me) . So then when I returned to the hobby , I learned a valuable lession with my Hanger 9 Corsair bash. I added a Zolner interior,scale details such as panel lines and retracts ect ,weathering ,pilot sliding canopy ect . However the plane was still very light and incredible joy to fly. This changed my direction and planning from that point on .Because in the air the Hanger 9 corsair flew very scale , it was an easy beutiful plane to fly and with the exception of the scale buffs, the flat stablelizer was never a negative issue when you would see and feel this plane fly .

Again , I think the weight and feel comes down to your own choice of preferance . I think at time the subject is confused because many experienced warbird guys will say "love the bigger planes they fly so well" , you never really hear them say "love the bigger heavier birds" because weight was always a aspect of "results" typically never of "intent".
I have used this example so many times
Take the
RedBox P40 -gem to fly
Gold Edition (sorry guys ) difficult and real warbird with some design errors
Hanger 9 P40 - creampuff
New P40 ARF - total gem
73"CMP P40 -total gem
so while they all have the p40 name , and to the typical bystander there all the same plane , the differance is weight ,wingloading and washout .
Enjoy the hobby, no right or wrong answer , just opinion but I will close with saying my hanger has been very healthy and happy with light wingloading

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

Maybe silly question, but have you tried lateral balance of your model?

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

Hi Mike - Been trolling the forum and keeping up with everyone's progress, but I've only made little bits of progress myself. Just been a really busy Spring and most of my time (aside from family duties and work), has been spent getting the annual done on my L-16...at this point, it looks like I'll be missing two great shows, (Millville NJ this weekend and Reading PA next weekend). The Zero wing is in final primer with panel lines via chartpak tape..and I do need to post some pics. The tailwheel build by Luke and the PTEG canopies he pulled along with the pre-printed faux interior by Misha have gotten me redirected to the Zero build again....so I'm hoping to make some serious progress in the next few weeks. I will be ordering a hangar 9 pilot bust today...so things should start moving.

I have also been looking at the Nelson line of water based poly paints. I've talked to some club members who have used the products and they like it, but I cannot find a reference color chip for the Japanese colors he has listed. I sent an e:mail asking, but have not received any reply...so i will likely just go to the local PPG dealer and get some base coat custom mixed.

I can't wait to try the DLE-20 in the Zero...another club member just flew his TF T-34 with a DLE-20...19 lbs....plenty of power and pulls it with authority.

Will try to post some pics and make some progress this weekend.

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

You will love the nelson paints you cant go wrong !!!

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

Tried my Zero again at last weekend, still having teething problems with it. The obvious one was the retracts, I have now replaced them with an air set that seem much more positive. Engine ran better, but I had the tick over way too high which added to the problems trying to land this very pitch sensitive model! I had set my C of G at 145mm which was on the 'safe' side of the range stated in the manual. I have since read on here that you shouldn't even consider flying it with the C of G any further back than 135mm, and I note some of you have yours in the 120s. It was a gusty day and the plane was unbelievably pitch sensitive on the approaches I tried. I eventually put it down with a couple of bounces on the fourth attempt and ran off in to the rough. This I would consider a hard landing, but I was pleased my U/C mod's held up ok. I have re balanced at I33mm which cost me another 12 oz of lead in the nose! Hoping to try again this weekend weather permitting.......It's getting there ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E37s...&feature=feedu

Walts.

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

LDM - I've only heard good about the Nelson paints being user friendly and easy to apply. And the results I've seen look really nice. Any suggestions how to ID the different Japanese colors in their list?...such as the two different Greens and three different Grays? I guess the most frustrating part is the complete lack of response in the past 4+ weeks...nada..zippo....makes me feel like they're uninterested in my business. Anyway, I may just choose some colors from the chips they do list...undecided yet.

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

I always balance the plane side to side b4 i set the CG. ive noticed they are always a little off

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

L16, I know they really bite as far as contact, I actually got mine from a local shop . This is what I did , I posted a request on RCU for what colors to pick and a bunch of guys chimed in for my P40 .
I would suggest the same many know the exact colors to use.
It seems like many of the rc businesses we deal with are small cottage industry types , so its very difficult to get replys !!!!

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

Ian , nice flying, was that your Typhon that is also on line ? If so really nice build

RE: CMP 120 Zero ARF Build thread
 

LDM - Thanks...I'll take your suggestion and post a thread asking for help.

Also, regarding the faux interior provided by Misha, I just had it printed professionally on adhesive vinyl and the the cost for 1 was hte same as the cost for 6...so of course, I had 6 printed. I figure I'll keep two, so if anyone is interested, I have four available...and for those interested, the local print shop charged me their minimum $25 plus tax, whcih comes out to $4.42 per cockpit plus whatever the USPS charges. I'll be picking them up after work tonight, but based on the test print I did, the resolution and quality is really nice.