i have been trying to get started in this for a while but i just recently got money to get my kit but swampworks is down
T_T so were do i go to get one?

Many clubs have For Sale sections on their web pages for ships people are getting rid of, but, like used cars, you may be getting someone else's problems.

The Yahoo GROUP Site BSTF is a good place to start when looking for sometiong (BSTF stands for Buy/Sell/Trade/Forum)

Depending on the format you are wanting to go, the Yahoo Groops for those formats are good and can give you links. For Small/Fast Gun, I would try the IRCWCC yahoo group for a start. For Big Gun, I would try the BigGunsModelWarship yahoo group. All 3 are at Yohoo.com, under the Groups Section, do a search for BSTF, IRCWCC, and BigGunsModelWarship, respectively.

When you get there4, check the message archives as well as the photos sections for "for sale" items.

Also, Battlers Connection seems to be coming back online soon.

Good luck,

Wreno

Unfortunately, Swampworks closed for business in early spring. Another supplier, Battlers Connection, is just getting back on their feet after a summer of absorbing the work load. Barnstormer Boats has just come out with a Prinz Eugen and they are planning an Iowa class. All of these are 1/144 scale ships. Since you mentioned Swampy, I'm just guessing that's the scale your looking at. The other question is are you looking at Big gun or Fast gun. Their both great, but do have some differences. Personally, I'm rather nuts, I built my first ship from scratch. I battle fast gun, or today I might say fast sink. Our club in Minnesota just had a battle today, after some fierce battling I lost power to my ship, (water got into the "waterproof" box). The result, a trip in the pond for me. haha My daughter took a video of me recovering my ship, ...funny...I can hear her laughing at me in the video. [sm=drowning.gif] (clearly, I'm still working out the kinks )

I know of a couple of ships for sale at www.modelwarshipcombat.com
On this same site, you can link to local chapters, the closest to you is probably "SCRAP" or CAL-NEV. On the Southern California site, they have a listing of people who make hulls in 1/144.

Probably the first thing is to figure out what chapter and type of club are closest to you. Fast gun is fun, but if the only club within 250 miles is Big gun, or vice versa. The choice might be easier. Have fun, make friends, and try to sink your opponent first,..then help'm patch it up,....so you can sink them again. hehe

well i was looking at the ships at battlers connections, and there realy no kits fir beginers that i liked the ones i did like were expensive as all hell...

were can i find a cruiser that looks good for around 200? i say swampy had a few i liked but.. cant get them now

When you add everything up, it can get expensive. I've developed the "Everything costs $150" rule-of-thumb, that seems to be able to estimate ship costs into the ballpark pretty well for Big Gun construction:

- Fiberglass ship hull: $150 (more or less, usually depending on size & complexity of the curves; you can cut this down to around $30-50 or even less if you build your own hull out of scrap wood)
- Guns: $150 per turret (less if you can make your own)
- Radio: $150 (typical for a 6-channel non-computer set + ESC; some better deals can be found sometimes)
- CO2 system: $150 (more or less, depending on the number of guns)
- Misc supplies & equipment (motors, shafts, rudders, wire, etc.): $150

Add it all up: A large battleship with 3 main turrets armed should cost about $1050 to build, which most experienced builders would probably say is in the ballpark. You can save money by building several of the components yourself, at the expense of more time, but only if you have the right tools, equipment, & skills. Mistakes that have to be undone add to the cost in both money & time. Tools that you might have to buy add to the cost, but can be used for other projects. It's definitely not a cheap, "throw-away" hobby.

Note also that if you go without the guns & CO2, & build the hull yourself, you can put an unarmed merchant ship on the water for about $300. A lot of people (myself included) recommend an unarmed merchant ship for a first build for several reasons:

- The clubs need cargo ships to flesh out battle scenarios.
- It costs less to get started.
- You can get on the water, & into the action, sooner.
- You get a taste for the action, which is often a motivator to get the armed ship built.
- All of your first-ship mistakes (of which there will probably be plenty) get to be made on something that you won't care about as much as a fully-armed warship. When you finally get around to building a warship, you will know so much more than you do now & you can put that knowledge to work making your warship that much better. Part of that knowledge might be that the warship you originally wanted to build might not work out so well in reality, & all sorts of plans can chage as a result of your experience.
- If you end up deciding that this isn't for you after all, you're not out as much money.

JM

It is not easy to build a new mold set for one of these combat models. The Prinz Eugen took me over 200 hours in molding time. That is why these boats are so hard to find.

There are a few individuals who garage build the combat models but again the time it takes to make a mold set really eats up the profit on making these complex ships. So garage builders will tend to focus on more profitable ventures.

As far as I know, Swampworks is for sale and Battlers connection is reorganizing, so it may be a while before either of them are taking orders again.

[email protected]

I remember my wife asking me how much I had into my ship. Before I could respond, she said, " Wait a minute,...I don't want to know" It's not a cheap hobby, but you hopefully have a lot of fun and make some good friend who are hoping they don't get asked that same question.

Smart wife! My receipts from the LHS's always had a problem of "disappearing" on the way home and I had stuff delivered to where I work that had to be snuck into the house. In the end, she really didn't care as long as the other bills got paid.

Who says we have to grow-up?? We just have to figure out how to get bigger toys!!

Well I'm currently selling a completed warship for $230. It will need weapons system, radio equipment, and pump. Engines are installed and rudder system is also complete.

It is currently listed on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170035479482

That's the attitude!!

JM

That doesn't sound very "complete" at all. Only the cheap & easy parts are done.

JM

I wouldn't think it would be "easy", The hull is hand made wood rib construction. I know that can't be easy what so ever, not saying anything about the time constructing it. Heck this can be on the water, just by adding a radio gear. This isn't a bad deal, if you purchased a fiberglass hull, that alone is $150 to $180. Not counting the other things a new comer wouldn't have to do, cutting out the windows (itchy part), making the stiffing tubes, installing the tubes, figuring out the rudder system, placement of engines, water proofing wood, superstructor construction, etc... Okay $230.00 for what it is and everything that is done, it's a steal.

You have to agree that installing the radio, pump, and weapons is very easy, and a beginner can get the feel of the hobby right away, plus have pride in what they have done.

Given a good state of mind, and a good cup of coffee, I could start a boat and have it in the water in a week.


My first combat ship was built in one month, 140 hours, my first scratch built ever. I was eager to play.
I over resin'd the fiberglass, and cut crooked deck opening, bought the wrong motors...
But the club was very supportive.[8D] They taught me the quick and dirty way of scratch building.

That ship is now 18yrs old, and still battling. I have built nine ships since then, and helped to build and bring seven or so new ships and members into the sport. The best thing you can do is hook up with a club.
My nearest club was 120 miles away, and I wouldn't be have the skills or boats I do today without the members and friends of the Queen's Own Combat club.

Buying a stripped out boat is better than one ready to go. It is difficult enough to keep your boat running when you know how it went together. Try keeping a boat running when you aren't sure how the original builder set up his wiring, or voltages, etc. Seen plenty of smoked wiring from that part of the gallery. Building it up your self allows you to learn the necessary skills, and know how to repair it when it breaks at the pond.



[link=http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=551258]My last quick build... Watch the dates from first cut to the water.[/link] [>:] ... oh and take note as to why it's not a good Idea to build and launch with so few days before a competiton... it's not even combat...

Your experience may be different than mine, but I've found that it's pretty easy to cut patterns out of plywood with a scroll saw, & assemble them into a ship's frame. I've done that part in as little as a weekend, including time for glue to set. Rudder & stuffing tubes are pretty easy to set, especially if you plan for it from the beginning. I'd consider it to be worth about $75-80 in materials, less if scraps are used. Most of that $230, then, is for somebody else's labor to assemble the thing.

I have to agree to no such thing. Making all of the inter-related combat systems work well together can be a real challenge. I can usually get them all to work pretty easily by using "standard" methods, but there are always issues that come up to make something fit where it needs to go or work the way I want it to. I also usually like to push the envelope somewhere or other, to see if I can get something to work better, but that's another matter entirely. Again, your experience may be different, but mine is that when beginners see a bunch of electrical & pneumatic parts, wiring diagrams, & CO2 plumbing diagrams, the "deer in the headlights" look is pretty common. Most beginners I've known have had R/C experience limited to RTF aircraft, where they didn't have to know how to do anything except charge batteries.

I've bought 1 used ship myself, & seen maybe 5 or 6 others come into our club from outside. Every time, the 1st thing that the new owner does is strip it bare & rebuild it up the way they want it. In the process, there are always plenty of "Why did he do it THAT way?" moments & plenty of head-scratching. The net result is almost always more time spent to complete, not less. What if the original builder placed the motors right in the way of something combat-critical, like a gun? I'd have to rip the motors & who-knows-what-else out to make room - I've seen that exact thing happen before more than once. Personally, I always mount guns as early in the build process as I possibly can, because they have to go where they have to go, & everything else needs to fit around them. Buying a ship that's "complete except for the guns" is a red flag, & a good indicator that the original builder may not have known what they were doing.

The only way I'd buy that thing would be if I wanted that exact ship (I don't even know what it was), & wanted it right now just to sail around (non-combat). Even so, I'll bet I could build one in less time than it takes the guy to ship that one to me, & for a lot less money.

JM

Something I've wanted to do for a long time is to do a live, scratch ship build in a weekend at some sort of festival, etc. with people walking around watching. The whole thing would be mainly a PR exercise, to promote the club/hobby & show people how it's done in a marathon build session, with a giant clock tracking the elapsed time, video replays, & as much excitement as can be generated. I'd want to pick a pretty easy ship. All materials, tools, helpers, etc. would need to be properly staged, with a timetable worked out in advance. I think it would be a blast to try to go from raw materials to "finished", working warship in a weekend (might need for it to be a long, holiday weekend!)!

JM

I guess what I meant to say was to comment on why there are not more suppliers to the industry in an answer to the original question of where to buy a kit. To make first the plug for not only the hull, but deck, superstructure and secondary equipment, then to pull molds from all of these parts and make a boat for PRODUCTION is not easy. (and that is what I used to draw the conclusion of why there are not more suppliers to this sport) That said, a lot of the small parts and secondary gun turrets, seaplanes and lifeboats that had to be produced for my first combat model of the Prinz Eugen can be used on future ship projects so that is a ton of time saved on future builds.

The concept of a quick scratch build is fine, but a finished scratch build is not even half way to having that boat available for production in order to sell it to the public. The process of properly molding up everything to have a detailed ship is more involved. That said, many combat models do not have the detail stuff like lifeboats, seaplanes and smaller weapons and other details that I like to offer in a full kit. Even if they are removed for actual combat, Its nice to have all the details when the ship sits in drydock on your mantle.

Also, scratch building a boat can be an expensive lesson that can result in disappointment for someone who is hoping to have his first (and at that point only ship) in the water and ready to fight. For a rookie, I believe you are better off to build from a kit and learn all the aspects involved in a finished fighting lady. Then once that knowledge is in your head and you have fought a fight or two, you will be much better prepared for the challenge of a scratch build.

Just look at the thread the great moo put together with his Yamato. He worked really hard to make himself a nice big battleship, but for the lack of experience, it came out with the ribs sticking out and sagging sections. Plus, he misread the required dimensions and had to cut the hull in half to add a couple inches to make it legal. Had he started with a good kit, he would have had the boat rigged and fighting without a hitch.

Again, this thread was about how to get started. I say, start with either a used ship or kit. Leave the scratch building for your next project. Further, I disagree with the concept of making a merchant first. Just running around the pond getting shot at is not going to fill the new guy with the same rush that comes with dishing out some punishment. Even if you build a warship and don’t get the cannons in, you can still sail as a convoy member. I think its better to know that you can simply add the cannons to the boat you are running when you are ready.

Strange, it says Barnstormer made a post, but the post isn't here...

John, I have long suggested that, with the trailers that show up at our events, we could build and then fight boats at the pond. However, I like your suggestion too. It would be a nice draw, and really demonstrate how easy it is to scratch build a boat.

[8D]

It is now!

(keep in mind, the following quoted comments were made by somebody who builds hulls & kits for sale.)

There's no question that a lot of work goes into building fiberglass hulls & kits for production. The needs of a production kit-builder are not necessarily the same as those of somebody who's building a single ship for their own use, though.

I think that Moo's example makes an excellent case for building a cargo ship 1st. All those mistakes made on a Liberty Ship, & who really cares? It's a major learning experience for the builder, at a lot less cost. Worst-case, it's a frame hanging on the wall of the garage that's a prop for the great story for the now-experienced builder to tell to the "next generation" that he's helping to get started.

Most people won't take the advice to build a cargo ship 1st - I know I wouldn't have (I never had the benefit of that good advice to ignore in the 1st place), even though my perfect 20/20 hindsight tells me it would have been a darn good idea. I know that my 1st warship would have been a heck of a lot different, if I'd built a cargo ship 1st, that's for sure. Those few that I know who have built a cargo ship 1st seem to be happy with the decision.

From the perspective of getting actively involved in combat, I have a hard time recommending the experience of taking out that shiny new warship for its 1st sortie, expecting to put the hurt on the other ships, & instead getting shredded by the more experienced & tactically-proficient captains out there. That's a great way to make somebody pack up their stuff & never be seen again (not to mention, a great source of those valuable used ships!). The learning doesn't stop when the ship hits the water, & my opinion at least is that somebody who takes out an unarmed freighter, expecting to be sunk, is a lot less disappointed when he does get sunk than the guy who comes out with the "biggest, baddest battleship" but doesn't know how to use it effectively. I always recommend that new people get a taste of & for the battle, find out what does or doesn't work, & then make the major investment. You may also find out that, what you had thought would be a great ship doesn't work as well as you'd thought. After you see what works & what doesn't, & get a better sense of what you want to actually do, you may very well end up building a whole different warship than originally planned. Better choice of a warship, better tactical skill & more building skill when you build it - & all it costs is a few battles in an inexpensive cargo ship. Not to mention, you'll have a 2nd ship that you can run for fun (our experienced warship captains - myself included - have a blast running cargo sometimes), when the "main" ship isn't available for some reason, or loan to a friend to help get them interested (most of our club's members got started as guests, driving the club's fleet of unarmed cargo ships - they got a taste & wanted more).

Experiences around here with used ships have been, in general, that it takes longer to tear them down, figure out what the original builder had done, & rebuild them up "right" than it would have taken to build a new one in the 1st place. Even those that worked well for their previous owner need a lot of updates to work they way their new owners would like.

The idea that, "...you can simply add the cannons to the boat you are running when you are ready" is just asking for trouble, IMO. If you don't make proper allowances for space, weight, & power needed for the guns & associated systems then the likelihood of a "surprise" happening later goes way up, & that's exactly the kind of mistake that a 1st-time builder is liable to make.

Some people like kits, & kits are great for those people. The trouble is that ships are so different from each other that there's no way to make a "generic" kit that works for all (or even most, or a lot of) ships - unless you want all the ships to look & handle the same, that is (which is an option, but one that I'd just as soon not take).

JM

Hmm this sounds promising. I was afraid of scrap building, but I might give a merchant ship a try.

The key to first time scratchbuilding is to check in regularly.
Whether that is here, or with a local modeler or club member doesn't matter.

No one saw Moo's problem till he had laid fiberglass on the boat.

If he had been posting regular updates for us, someone would have told him that his next step was to put balsa sheeting, or strips across the frames. The excitement and eagerness to get into "combat warships" is actually quite rare. The fact that Moo got that hull to fiberglassing is a testament to how well, and far, he will go in this 'sport'.
Many people never even get frames cut.

If you, anyone, finds you have to scratch build a boat, post pictures here of your progress.
All of us love to see a boat come together. No matter what scale, what combat gun caliber,... we are here to help anyone get that done. [8D]

I agree completely, except that I'm not so sure the excitement & eagerness to dive right in is so rare. Seems to me like a lot of folks want to jump right to the battle, instead of taking "baby steps".

JM

Well actually since I haven't really looked into any clubs yet, I thought about building a simple merchant ship like many veterans posted as means to practice and earn some experience and to see whether if I'll be up to building even bigger and complicated warships.

Could you guys perhaps recommand me a good merchant ship for beginner to construct? Or are all of them basically same difficulty in shape/size?

Pretty much anything - whatever you like. Big is generally easier to make everything fit, & handles the waves better, bus small can be super-maneuverable & a lot of fun, too. Personally, I'm rather partial to tankers, with all the pipes, etc. topside. I'd stay away from big passenger liners if you ever plan to get into combat - they're just about impossible to sink, even with hundreds of holes (that you'll end up having to patch, anyway, 'cause they're darn near impossible to miss). If you want to get into combat, you'll want something that ws built in 1945 or earlier, but there are plenty of them to choose from.

On many single-screw ships, you have to think about how you're going to get a prop. shaft through the keel (do-able, but you just have to give it some thought). Twin-screw ships have no such problem.

JM