Liability of SPAD
 

Gosh, this SPAD stuff looks really interesting. I thought about buying a Duraplane...basically because it looked indestructable. But, now I see there is a whole modeling experience based upon this. [sm=surprised.gif]
Exciting.

So, heres my first question.

Liability. Is there any extra liability assumed from building your model from aluminum and cutting board? Will AMA cover this? Do certain clubs not allow these type of models?

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

I haven't heard or read anything about SPADs being excluded.

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

Holy cow...you should see the combat planes...Carbon fiber, Kevlar, aluminum, HDPE, G10, Plexiglass...you name it, and they fly, totally covered by the AMA...every year, on the AMA grounds, at the AMA NATS.

So I would say there is not a problem.

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

Oh, I was thinking like a lawyer---eventhough I'm not. How many people can I see in this equation?

The flyer of the plane
The builder
The kit maker

Could someone argue that a "combat" plane is a special case plane only....?

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

US Aircore, and duraplane both build planes out of the same stuff spads are built from, and like Tattoo said, combat planes are flown at the same fields, with the same insurance we all have, ama.
Any plane, regardless of the construction is as deadly as the next. You get hit with a 4 or 5 lb plane going 60 - 70 mph and its a life threatening injury. Not only the impact, but the 15,000 rpm ginsu on the front.
The cold hard fact is that the only unsafe plane is one that is a) flown by an unsafe pilot, b) unsafe due to faulty equipment, or build, and c) one that is out of control due to radio interference, or other acts of God.

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

I can just see the look on the face of the poor guy who makes custom printed yardsticks for hardware stores when his lawyer advises him to print a disclaimer on each one 'Not responsible for injuries caused by accidents involving Radio Control models using yardsticks for spars'!

:D

Swede

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

Are you saying that planes built from any other material than wood aren't real planes? Have you been to a commercial airport lately? I don't see many planes made of wood there very often these days. I just wonder if you need special insurance to fly a Waco?

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

If the AMA outlaws Duct Tape I'm in trouble......

Thunderjet

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

Overthrow,
It seems to me that just because some folks are in a state of ignorance about certain aspects of model aircraft construction and flying that the governing body is certainly not.
It did not take the AMA very long to realize the safety potential of turbine powered aircraft and impose the rules needed to insure participant/public safety. Or when models started to become extremely large the AMA was soon to impose weight limits. The list is very long and is constantly being updated to become what is known as, "The rule book".
SPADs have been around for several years now, and I'm sure have been scrutinized by the AMA. It didn't take long either for someone to notice that guys were flying them closer than the 25' rule allowed and place some posts on this forum reminding them of the fact.
If you aren't a lawyer, perhaps you should look into law school. You seem to have the ability to ask provacative questions and when you don't get an answer that satisfies you, you continue the line of questioning. Even your "handle" seems provacative relative to the questions you have asked.
I would suggest that you spend some time perusing the AMA forum, then maybe read the rule book yourself and make your own decision about SPAD materials, construciton, and flight.
It just goes to show that there are an unlimited supply of people who seem to be unable to tolerate other folks just having fun and enjoying themselves.

My 4 cents worth.

blabree

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

The question sould be " is a plane made from brittle balsa wood and plastic shrink wrap as safe as a SPAD" and "what are the safty implications of a such an inherantly unsafe structural material copared to coroplast"

thats tough in cheak, BUT the plane is only as safe as the guy building it regardless of what it's made from

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

...I think you are way off base. You guys are reading "WAY-into" my very innocent post. I'm a newbie at this. I just followed a thread yesterday from the ARF section so my entire knowledge of this type of plane/modeling is about 20 hours old.

I want one of these....I'm especially interested in the Tattoo 3dspad... I'm just making sure there are no liability issues. I'm going to check with my club next to make sure they allow them....even if its find with the AMA. I went to the hardward store yesterday to check out the U-tubes and square-tubes.

I think this is the way to go to learn hovering and 3-d..... It makes no sense to learn hovering 5 feet off the pavement with a $500 model. The idea of building the plane from just anything and flying just about anything seems like a great way to think of the hobby. I see people spending $4000 on their plane and then never flying it....thats totally wrong.

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

I once read about a large ARF that didn't have enough glue on it's firewall.
The posting didn't have a very happy ending. (Looked like a shark attack).

IMHO, having all the hardware out in the open where you can see it before every flight is a safe way to fly :)
The engine mounts on my 'Channel' planes seem a lot safer than some profile planes I've seen. I think these rail planes might even be safer than most!

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

Ok, obviously you guys are very defensive on this subject...:eek:

I was just looking at this from the eyes of a newbie, from the aspect that Great Planes obviously has to have some testing process they go through when they create and kit a plane. But, who knows. But when I picked up a piece of that U-tube is when it dawned on me that this thing was quite "heavier" than I imagined and traveling at 100mph, looked more dangerous than a piece of balsa where I have to be careful of crushing the wings with my bare-hands on days where I have an extra box of Wheaties.

This stuff is tougher and heavier... In fact, thats to some degree why I want to build one of these so it can survive a heavy landing on a windy day.

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

If it's any consolation, the tail boom on a DuraPlane is the same "U" channel used in the Spa3d. The same goes for the gutterpipe. The cutting board material is HDPE which is the same material marketed at entire fuselages on comercial combat planes. The Coroplast is nothing new as proven by US Air Core. We use nothing new...we just do it ourselves.

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

Yes....the material just made me think...its the doing it "ourshelves" part that was my liability concern. I would like to build your plane spad3d...but I'm already thinking about "modifying" it....:D

Thats one of the most interesting parts of the SPAD thing...you can easily modify. Does that imply addition liability was my second thought...

Hmm, I just mark mine as "Experimental" on the wing...lol

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

The only "real" liability is you as the pilot. Be as safe as you can, and don't take any unnecessary chances - regardless of the materials you use.

On a side note - During the early days of getting combat recognized as a AMA sanctioned/recognized event (a few years ago) - there was a "gentleman" that was an AMA district VP that tried to propose at an Executive Council session that certain materials (Coroplast and PVC) should be banned from making combat R/C planes - needless to say - it was thrown out immediately!!!

Just be safe, act safe - and have fun - it's all good!

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

Liability is null and void, because you are building it yourself. To hold someone liable just for supplying plans, would be no different than suing the guy who put plans on the WWW to make a cell phone bomb.

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

Well if I ever got good enough to create plans and a website advertising a plane design, I would put a disclaimer on there just like the kit plans I get. There must be some reason why they still that legal disclaimer in there.

Afterall, somebody sued McDonalds because the hamburgers made them fat....

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

There is a disclaimer at the top of the Spad Originals plans index page.

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

2MuchThrow,

I think I can understand what you're trying to find out; the bottom line is, that the pilot is responsible for determining the airworthiness of his/her aircraft before the flight regardless what the aircraft is constructed of or how it is constructed.

A good source for answers is the Safety Code at the AMA site:
[link]http://modelaircraft.org/templates/ama/PDF-files/memanual03.pdf[/link]

I think the issue is moot, in that the answer is vaguely addressed in the AMA and/or FAI regulations, but the final determination will be made on a case-by-case basis, determined on the circumstances and the attorneys involved.

As long as the pilot, whoever it may be, determines that the aircraft is airworthy in his/her judgement, and adheres to all applicable regulations the the best of his/her ability, you should be covered by AMA (after your homeowners' policy). This is all a lot of ca-ca when something happens and it's YOUR tail on the stand and the prosecuting attorney points out that despite all of your experience, intelligence, preparation and good intentions, something bad happened anyway. Then, everyone from your dog to your fifth grade teacher will seem to say; "I always knew he'd grow up to crash a model some day! A bad seed, I always said!"

Good luck, and have fun flying (unless something happens, then please delete this post! I'll deny everything and if they put me on the stand, I'll tell them "I always knew he'd grow up to crash a model some day!)!

Blue skies,
DL

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

COMMON SENSE[8D]

When you test your new SPAD (especially if you deviated from tattoos plans), do it at a time when no people, or cars are around. I usually test my new planes on a Tuesday morning around 7AM at a feild surrounded on each side by 50 acres of crops. I only have to worry about myself and my car.

I never fly my planes around other people unless they are dialed in. Also, it saves the embarrasment if your new idea fails totally. LOL (in my case often).:D

IF YOU DONT HURT ANYTHING, YOU CANT GET SUED.

william

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

Well 2MuchThrow at the risk of being acused of flaming ya....

Why dont you just go and sit inside and and watch TV, your obviously waaaaay to paranoid to enjoy some of the fun things in life rc planes, trail bikes, etc, etc. Just go and sit on ya butt and youll have no problems.
LIFE is dangerous, from the minet your born your at risk, many things you do are inherantly dangerous to yourself and other, if the concept of SPAD is to much of a stress on you go and take up knitting.. but watch out for those sharp knitting pins, some one might get hurt.

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

YOU GO WOODSY:D

2 MUCH THROW:

Just build the D*#N thing and let us know how it flies.

NOVABILL

OH P.S. dont forget to post pics.[>:]

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

Sounds like the same logic my wife uses if I bring up the subject of Earthquakes....she thinks talking about them is some how connected with "causing" them.

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

LOL I see the SPAD sense of humour is still well and alive!!

Forget liability issues just go fly, over here we have no regulations, no regulating bodies, and no one flies with insurance, except for a few guys who are now purchasing insurance cover (including myself). Just be sure to have a good getaway car handy :D


** The above statements are made with no grounds whatsoever and the author hereby disclaims any liability associated with it. Any injuries sustained from all out laughter and/or injuries to finger while typing a reply/rebuttal are not the responsibility of the author!!!**

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

"Sounds like the same logic my wife uses if I bring up the subject of Earthquakes"

Yep, same thing, your wife is paranoid about earth quakes, you are paranoid SPAD safty, both so remote in most places its not worth worying about.

if you worry about this sort of thing you probably worry about tyres on Ford explorers, or seat belts on chryslers, or terorist atacks..

YES THEY ARE ALL POSSIBLE but also not wothe the time to type this thread

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

Soo true Woodsy,;)

WILLIAM

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

Who said I was worried....I ask a question. The purpose of a question is merely to seek information and any emotional response you have attributed to it...is your own.

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

Hey 2MuchTrow,

Dont sweat it, we're just having a little fun. You started a very entertaining thread and it's pretty cool that a bunch of people from around the world can have a conversation (and share their EMOTIONS) about our hobby. As you can see, the people in this forum take spadding quite seriously, actually we take the comcept seriously. Our planes fly as well, if mot better than planes of a more conventional design. Just because we shop at Lowes instead of the LHS does'nt mean the pilot on the sticks is any less qualifyed to fly the plane. I'll bet on these pages, you'll find some of the most talanted thumbs anywhere (myself not included). We are not afraid of desintegrating our aircraft in a doink and therefore fly looser. This makes us better pilots in the long run. So if we have already determined the pilots are the liability and not the materials, then SPAD pilots quite possibly could be more qualifyed to fly tham amyone.
Build one of these things and fly it and start enjoying the simplicity of SPAD.
Good luck and safe flying.

WILLIAM

BTW I used to live in CROW CANYON worked at HOJOs as a kid. Beautiful area.;)

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

Well that has been my thinking. I only sound serious. But, I need to find a motor for $25...

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

COOL;)

Spend the $78 and get a new GMS .47 or Tower .46. Fly with an 11x4 or 12.5x3.75 and you'll be happy.

Remember, dont forget the pictures

WILLIAM

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

2Much, it's a good question, one I've thought of myself, and I apologize for the behavior of my overly defensive Spad brethren. From a strict liability stand-point, I think you'll be OK, assuming you're an AMA member. But we all have a moral obligation not to make things more dangerous than they have to be. From my experience (from crashing into the ground), a gutter pipe and coro plane will do no more or less damage than a balsa plane of the same weight (and as others have mentioned, that damage can be lethal, even for a 5 pound balsa trainer).

The metal rods though, do give me pause. They do seem kind of like an arrow. Then I figured, the only way that arrow is going to hurt you is if the 1 pound engine with the prop on it hurts you first. So my gut feeling is to ignore the liability issue, even with the metal channels and rods, and just have fun flying (safely, of course).

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

hmm, I think in the true spirt of SPAD, flying with resurrected "junk" and an old beater engine seems more in tune with SPAD.

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

I smell a rat here.

I checked out 2much throw's profile, and according to it, he has 10 years building, and 5 years operating experience.

Seems a little out of line for someone thats been at it for at least 5 years, but, ok, for the sake of argument, lets assume its legit.


Then, this:
HUH? 20 hours, what about the missing 5-10 years you spoke of in your profile? You mentioned duraplane in an earlier post. It was stated repeatedly that the materials used in spads are the same ones used in Duraplanes, and aircore, as well as numerous different combat, slope, and 3d planes.
So, what do you want? The AMA has safety requirements, go read them. You won't find a spad that violates a single one of them, period. Thats it. Thats the answer to your question. Yet, you still continue:

Great planes does, but does every, or any Joe Blow that decides to scratch build a model airplane, be it built of balsa, foam, coroplast, or whatever? No. He doesn't, the GP argument is a moot point. End of story.

and some more:


Anybody else smell a troll yet? I do.

and now, the proof, as far as i'm concerned.
You guys banter about it all you want. I'm done with it.

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

Yep, I have a Cirrus AM Radio thats about 25 years old...you want to buy it. I probably have close to 20 years experience building...but I really don't see your point. But, I have "never"....let me quote "never", seen a spad fly at any of the clubs I'm in.

But these SPAD models are not that old of an idea --right According to the SPAD websites, they were invented in 1998. The members I have talked about it with at my club think these planes are ridiculous and overweight...and won't fly very good. But, I think its cool but I'm sure I will get a lot of flak at the field and a lot of laughs.

Some of you SPAD guys need to really cut down on the coffee -- man....your taking yourself way too seriously. I have never seen a set of folks so defensive about their hobby. I don't know if you use to getting haggled or what but I'm sure its got to be harder to fly an aluminum rod cable-tied to coroplast than any balsa plane...so take some "anti-stress" tea and smoke a ciggy or something.

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

This is really getting good

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

Ya beat me to it Chris, but I call TROLL!!!!!!

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

This hobby is all about choice. It's a good thing for the balsa companies that some people choose the "better flying" airplanes. Some of us choose diferently because we know better.

Where does it say that?

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

[sm=confused.gif]
Your name is there... near the bottom of the page.
http://www.spadtothebone.com/

SPADTOTHEBONE.COM
Spad started in Wichita, Kansas in the spring of 1998 when Collin "Kraut" McGinnis and Dean "Tattoo" Tuinstra designed a cheap and quick building plastic airplane for R/C combat. Kraut and Tattoo are jet engine mechanics at McConnell AFB, best friends, extreamly compeditive, and share a passion for R/C aircraft. Kraut built Spad #1.



Not addressing your response Kraut...but...a huge purpose of these forums is for "experienced" people to help "new" people without lambasting them. It goes with the history of the Internet that seems to get lost more and more everyday.

I don't KNOW...thats why I'm asking...not to provocate a defensive response.

RE: Liability of SPAD
 

First of all I wrote that piece on spadtothebone...NOWHERE does it say we INVENTED anything. In fact I almost take offense to that because it would take credit away from US Air Core, Dura-Plane, SturdyBirdy and anyone else who been doing this stuff...like the cardboard guys from the late 70's or the foam board guys from the 80's.

And who is lambasting who about something he hasen't even done yet? I'm here on the internet to tell you that with 27 years of experience in the hobby, with 22 of them spent flying balsa...that a statement like that even got me going. It couldn't be further from the truth. An airplane's flight charicteristics are not determined by what it's made from...but from how it's designed. I've been laughed at at the field before, and I've been trashed on the internet plenty...but screw em all, I'm getting the last laugh every time one of my planes leaves the ground.