MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

I love that idea. I may have think about that, a "Speed Dash" for "Cash"

Iron Dog

Oh, okay so we are doing this /|\ now . . .

Well if we are now introducing these other pilots to our brand of friendly racing "Smack-talk", then Shawn, let me first say "Congratulations" on your 1st place in the Miller Time Warbird Race. You bettered 12 other pilots that day, and I was very proud and happy for you! But, as you know, in breakout racing it's not just about being the fastest; it's about consistency, and having the kahunas to fly faster than your competition towards that breakout speed, while simultaneously having the skill to still not exceed the breakout. I did the math . . . Let me re-introduce you to the plane that risked flying yet another 2.4 seconds faster/closer to breakout, on average per heat, to edge out 26 other pilots over two days:

Gold may have more speed, but Silver has more than double the competition . . . trophy not as "easily" obtainable. In this sport, "speed" is relative.

(We Silver pilots, who still represent the majority of the pilots within this great sport, are no slouches, ourselves.)

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Well Ollie, when I ran silver I think I had more breakouts then I did heat wins. When I made the decision to go gold I gave in and went YS. I have never really been a 4 stroke guy. That being said I knew the the YS was going to give me the consistency to dial in the fuel/prop combo so that a clean race would get me in the 1:27-1:30 range. That is something I was never able to do with the 2 strokes. However of racing with no breakout, I have lots of room for more speed. At SAMs I run relatively low nitro and only a 13" pitch prop. More nitro and pitch as I was running in Morgan Hill in October resulted in a huge speed increase. Had I not thrown a prop blade I just may have beaten Mick who was running really well that day too.

MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

I look for the Gold calss to see an increase this year.
I also look to see more cross race polination.
What I hope continues unchanged is the winner of these individual races going to anyone at any day. It is such close racing it could be any body at any time. Heck I think even Richard V might win one of these races.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

I'm with you there Marty. The SAMs series and Triangle series are just a couple hours drive from one another but very few guys race both. IMO that may change if the two series were to standardize. The Triangle series easily get 30+ T34 entrants and those would work well in the SAMs bronze class. The modified .46 class works great for silver and the unlimited works well for gold. I would like to see the Triangle warbirds go from 8 laps to 10 and have the heats timed. This may help bridge the gap between the two series. The difficult part is getting the guys to want to compete both series.

MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

So far you are all doing your on thing, which is a great thing. What I am proposing is New thing, offering all things to be one thing and really become Something.

JPGale

So Joe send out an email that confirms that the Morgan hill series has dropped unlimited for next year. So that will not be able to be included. As Speed says the .46 modified class would work for silver.

James

MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I didnt say anything to any one Joe

Jimmy Skids

My Feedback: (2)

Marty,
James is referring to an email that Joe DeLateur sent out tonight to many on the Triangle series email. I'll forward from my work email to you in a second.
Jim

Iron Dog

Shawn,

I know exactly what you meant: plaque (more) easily obtainable by someone purchasing one of your Macchi kits offered for sale, so they too, could go blazingly fast. Yes, I was "busting your balls", but with a deeper purpose in mind.

You’ve known me for years now, and most people that know me well have come to understand that if I don’t have strong feelings about something, I tend to keep my mouth shut; and let those that do, dominate the floor. I am not someone who always feels the need to throw in his two cents to regularly be heard. But, if someone directly asks my opinion, or like in this case if it is something I am truly passionate about, I will speak my mind. If I am going to take the time to speak my mind, people who have “figured me out” know that there is usually a worthwhile message behind what I am saying. Hopefully that is true in this case.

My comments were not simply a demonstration of our brand of smack-talk; and it most certainly was not meant as any kind of slight against you or your accomplishments. (We have become good friends, and I truly was very proud of you; it was a long time coming, and you deserved every bit of it!) Within that message I had intended other layers of meaning that I hoped to more or less almost subliminally begin to introduce to the Gold pilots (most of the pilots behind this initial effort) for consideration, as our discussions progressed and the timing seemed more appropriate; but may now just have to risk just jumping right in with. So, here it goes:

The last few years have seen the pilots and CDs of the various series engaging in conversations regarding the various decisions and reasoning behind the criteria we each developed as the framework for our formats. It was obvious that many wanted to see a standardization, hoping for a better cross-pollination and level of mutual support. It has taken someone as dedicated to the sport as Marty (and Richard, as well), to actually take the time to participate and meet everyone at the various events and clubs, and to be as well liked and respected by all to be able to serve so well as an ambassador (or “ambassadors” counting Richard) to bring us all together. We are on the cusp of finally realizing this goal, and the repercussions of our decisions now, will likely have a long-term impact on our sport.

Remember what happened to SWRA . . . Our various formats rose from the ashes of SWRA and have worked for our various “niche markets” and local club clientele for nearly 20 years. Potentially changing our formats, even partially is risky. But, I believe worth the risk, so long as we carefully consider all impacts and contingencies with an open mind as to what truly is best for the sport overall, rather than what gives individual clubs and racing classes more of what they want in the short-term.

I am so passionate about this sport that I will support any effort that further promotes it whether I ultimately am able to actually participate in it, or not. That being said, I think it is important to define exactly what our aims are.

Initially, Marty made it clear that his vision is for a two-class event - Gold, and Unlimited. My question is, “If we are able to come together to successfully put on such an event, is that where it stops?” Specifically, is it worth a potential rules rewrite for Gold and Silver classes (changes that would most likely affect Bronze, as well) for each of our respective series’ to hold one Warbird Racing Championship Event . . . all this in preparation for a presentation with the goal “to see it in Muncie as a NATS event . . . [with] 180 MPH warbirds making the ticket . . . for a national 2-class event in Muncie”, only to eventually leave out both Silver and Bronze altogether, in favor of an Unlimited class, when eventually presenting the event to the Nats officials?

If we “[might] even open it up to Bronze pilots” as “the key reason for this event would be to attract all the different warbird series into one event as well as see how well this pans out to present it to the Muncie officials for consideration”, does that mean this moves beyond just the originally-proposed two-class event? Originally I didn’t think so. But, it seems somewhat insensitive to encourage Silver’s and especially Bronze’s participation to build-up initial successes towards a series of events that would eventually have no place for them. Furthermore, that latter question may become even more relevant now that the Unlimited class does not appear to even be continuing in the one series that had been running it to this point, and Silver represents the majority of participants.

All this is in the earliest stages of gestation, so I fully expect there will be some initial confusion and that the "think tank" needs time to carefully plan for all contingencies. I am still "all-in", even though I am unclear exactly what I am offering to get myself into. Likewise, based on having received a few emails and calls from a local race worker, 2 Bronze and another Silver pilot, all since last night, and all asking me exactly what this means, I am not the only one. There are definitely some strong feelings out there about what others think this event should be, and who might be left out. As this is not my proposal, I don’t have the answers for them. So this fact, and wanting to ensure I didn’t hurt my buddy Shawn’s feelings, gave me the impetus to just pose these questions outright for consideration.


(And I’m already bracing for the comparisons to a Tolstoy novel from Jake! )

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

No worries Ollie, you and I have been friends for a while now and I enjoy the back and forth. You do bring up some great points as usual. IMO it would be a huge mistake to change what the SAMs club has worked so long to accomplish. Being involved in the actual racing and having lengthy conversations with JR on multiple occasions has brought me the knowledge that what you guys have came at the expense of many man hours. Also I am really not the guy to try to re-invent anything. the easiest way to be successful is do what the guy who is successful is doing. With that in mind, what I meant by standardizing is I would hope that other organizations would evolve to something that closer resembled SAMs format. From what I can see I think RCPRO comes close. The Triangle series is pretty far from it especially now that Unlimited has been dropped. I don't know the reasoning behind this but feel that was a mistake. Last race we had close to the same participants in unlimited as we did modified .46. The end of unlimited in the Triangle series IMO just widened the gap. Now as far as just running two classed on a Nats level, I just really can't agree with that format either. Getting back to taking a look at what has worked I will use the Tucson Aerobatic Challenge as an example. They have the normal IMAC classes ( Sans basic class ) and then the top dog invitational class. I think the Nats warbird event should be close to the same. Have all 3 break out classes bronze, silver and gold but then add an unlimited non breakout class. We NEED to offer a notional event that attracts not only the top level guys but the guys who love to race but are just starting out or don't have the desire to run around at 180 mph. The current racing formats support this. Not everyone wants to fly Q40 for various reasons but do race Q500 simply because of less complexity. The Q500 airplanes are almost as fast and are not that less expensive but much easier to build and operate. Their take off and landing manners are easier as well. Pattern and IMAC both have their lower levels as well and are the foundation of those sports. Bottom line is that whatever we do, we NEED to support the lower classes as well. Obviously this is not going to be an easy road to travel but I for one feel that the end result would be worth while.

D.E.

I like the talk and LOVE the excitement, I know there are a lot of knowledgeable guys that have flown and put on races for years but be careful on rules, wouldnt want to see it become a race where all the latest composite tech uber expensive triaxial carbon making your own props and airplanes with ultra thin wings and tails at several thousand a copy rules. I know others that have gone that way...

JPGale

Jake is currently looking up this Tolstoy person and any novel's he may or written

JPGale

I can not speculate as to the reasons why Joe drop unlimited, I do believe however that the triangle series is move towards a 2 pole EF-1 series, that seems to have the most growth and interest, at most races the unlimited class was poorly attended and I don't think there was room any more for 4 classes. Personally I would have dropped T-34 and replaced that fully with EF-1, I think the interest in T-34 is going, but Joe has been doing a good job and I don't want to question his difficult decision. I will race EF-1 at Morgan Hill next year but I am no longer interested in race T-34's or .46 modified.

As to this event, I think that the RCPRO rules and the SAM's rules are close, and if anything the SAM's rules could be a subset of the RCPRO rules (no electrics at SAM's). I have to agree with Ollie that we at a minimum have to have a Silver class, this has the highest participation at SAM's and is very hard to win a heat and a day, winning the year is all about consistency. I would personally run a 3 class race with Silver (1.55), Gold (1.25) and super gold (no breakout) on the RCPRO/SAM's rules, including wing area and engine size charts.

The other question that comes to mind is other than SAM's and RCPRO are there another groups racing warbirds in the US.

James

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

I could not agree more. I started racing Q500 in '80. At that time we were running all wood kits with K&B engines. The races were very well attended. We had several of the old F1 guys mixing it up with us regular guys. Then the rules changed and we started running sch. engines and slightly faster airplanes. We lost a few guys but some came in at the same time so it was pretty much a wash. When it came about that you needed a Nelson Q500 engine and either a composite airplane or a wood/foam airplane that required advanced building skills then within a few years Q500 all but died in Northern CA. Right now as far as I know there is one single Q500 race in Norcal each year and this is rather recent. We NEED to keep warbird racing relatively low tech for at least 2 classes. Guys with limited budgets and time need to be able to build an ARF with off the shelf components in 20-30 hours. This works well for bronze and silver. let us guys who feel we need to use advanced materials and techniques run gold and unlimited. We have to cater to the simpler classes to keep the organizations as a whole alive. I have seen this same progression happen in Pattern, IMAC and Soaring as well. We seem to like to advance our sport to the point of extinction. Lets not let that happen with Warbird racing.

Iron Dog

[QUOTE=speedracerntrixie; We seem to like to advance our sport to the point of extinction. Lets not let that happen with Warbird racing.[/QUOTE]
Well stated!

(See, I knew you'd get me.)

MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

Awesome input from all of you.
My original ideas are changing as I get multiple emails, texts etc from all of you.

Please remember nothing is Firm yet.
But here me out :
It will be a hard sell at the Nats to get the 3 pole guys to give up any more time for racing on their week (as there is already now the Club 40 and ef1 taking time out).
This may never happen. But if it does go, it may need to start out carefully as to not steal the needed time from the 3 pole venues, or we may never get in.

Heres my original thinking on the idea that it be 2 class race:

First it was in no way to eliminate anyone from participation , but rather to encourage them to step up.
I had hoped that many of you, especially in Silver, will eventually step up into Gold by the time this National event occurs . Most of You are all quality pilots and fully capable.
My biggest concern was being "given" the time slot to do this.
Also I am not sure how a nationwaide break out event would do. Many current racers do not like backet racing at all. Hence the platinum class. But to keep vendors like Airmodel working with us I wanted to at least offer the Gold class. I just didnt feel we would be given 4 classes or even 3.
- I reserve the right to be wrong and maybe I am.
-I know the bigger class is often silver but didnt know if they would travel to compete at this level.

There is already a club 40 race that offers the bronze speed pilots a chance at where they are.
I didnt see a need to repeat this class.

There will be a good chunk of the Q40 guys stepping into Warbird racing due to the help of Airborne for developing the Spitfire Gold ARF and some demos a few of us have been doing at their races. They are showing interest as some of their events are seeing smaller turn out.

Some of The Q40 guys will be key in helping to make this a Nat event.

So my train of logical thinking went into these 2 classes: Gold with break out and Platinum w/o break out.
I am not at all opposed to adding silver if we can 1). be allowed the extra time 2). see enough entries at a Nat level

And I hear the same ole concerns: as far as planes becoming Q40 models running costs up and blue collar pilots out
No composite airframes allowed in either
No Q40 power source allowed in either.

Can we kill that discussion now please.


The reason for 3 classes at the proposed new "Champ Race" was to get all of the current types racing involved
The reason for limiting the "Nats Event" to just 2 classes was time needed during an already busy week.
I am all for all 3 classes at the Nats, just not sure the AMA will approve.
-Getting any of this to the Nats will be almost impossible with what is already there.

But creating a "Champ" race for the popular warbird series already running should be easy. To be honest I was as excited about this race as I am a about a Nats race, as it will serve to accomplish the exact same thing as Nats event at Muncie.
- It would crown , not a local series champ, but the champ combining all the series pilots from the various different groups currently running warbirds.

Keep the talks coming and feel free to share what ever is on your mind now.

All I want to do is race the best 2 pole pilots out there and have fun.

Iron Dog

Thanks for the clarification and direction Marty; and for truly processing everyone's input, concerns, and alternatives first. Now I understand much more of the issues being faced, as can everyone else. Having a clearer focus keeps this a very exciting prospect, and maintains the momentum. Great leadership. Thank you!

MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

BJ,
I checked out the Lodi private airport. Thats a Nice place that is already open to rc events, drag racing etc, so it seems to pretty cool as an option. Noise not an issue, all the set backs look great as long as they would allow us to move up the runway just a bit. Id like to see if you could pursue this more for me. I am after these questions (and this goes to anyone who may have a field for suggestion)
1). Can it be Notam closed
2). Can the noise be a proble (shouldnt be if they drag raced)
3). Can there be RV parking and food vendors allowed
4). Can elec be supplied for course needs and possibly pits
5).Where will the course workers come from?
6).Can any runway lights be removed from edge of runway and then replaced w/o the costs of a FAA tech
7). Whats the cost of the use for 4 days

And thx again for suggesting this place.

MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

Ollie,
I so appreciate the Nor Cal guys for their dedication to promoting developing racing as you all have. I am merely piggy backing on all this success and hard work thru the years from guys like you, RCPRO and SWRA.
Even if this never gets to the Nats, it would still be cool to have our own Championship Event in all 3 classes.
With Airborne developing the Spit and hopefully another model soon, and then other manufacturers seeing the need, this has the opportunity to really take off.

Racing has really caught on all of the nation, from club racing, to warbird, to 424 and Q40 and even Giant Scale. Seems many want to race these days.

My biggest challenge will be Not being on the ground, where this race needs to be. But with everyones help it can still happen.

JPGale

According to Joe's email last night there will be 2 pole at the nats this year so they maybe more open than we think. Also have we talked to anyone at the nats about what it will take to be included there.

James

delateurj

Hi,
I spoke to Marty the other day on the phone and totally support what he is trying to do. I'll help out where I can. Us dropping Unlimited at the same was an unfortunate coincidence. As to reasons why, do not want do that on the forums and certainly don't want to risk hijacking Marty's thread.. Anyone is free to reach out to me if you really need/want to know and I would be happy to discuss.

Takes three things for race. 1. Someone to put it on and work it (sounds like we have that, if not a date conflict, I'll be there to help work however Marty needs me). 2. Racers to show up...sounds like support for that. 3. Club to host...this should be and is the focus right now.

One factual correction. There were 3 Q500 (2 Davis, 1 Oakdale) races last year in Norcal and 4 slated for 2015 (2 Davis, 2 Oakdale). Any further questions on this please post to my thread on 2015 Triangle Series Schedule.

Regards,
Joe DeLateur

joedonkey

Cough, cough.. I'm in for anything fun!

Iron Dog

Regarding post #44, point #5:Lodi is still close to the Sacramento region. I would bet that many of our dedicated SAM workers wouldn't mind driving much further to work this event. We would still need more.

Lodi used to have a club called the Tokay modelers. I believe they lost their site or otherwise morphed into a new club/other clubs. Does anyone know for sure what the current status of this or neighboring clubs is/are? Collectively, if we can come up with some local contacts, we might begin to put together a local crew. Especially if a club is already based out of and using this airport. They would have critical insight and access to help set this up. Hosting such a major event could do much to "put their club on the map" and invigorate their membership.

Family members or or close friends/fellow club members that want to see this event be successful and that might choose to travel with the competing pilots would be a critical resource, as well.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Thanks for the correction Joe. Good news that Q500 is on the comeback. I may have to build one.