All Thumbs

Yesterday I had my second successful float plane outing. Like another post said, what a blast! However, I have a question about takeoffs. For starters, I'm flying a Hobbico Superstar that I've converted with a set of GP 40-size floats.

I'm looking for a little clarification on rudder use during takeoffs. It seems that most of what I've read say to use as little, or no rudder during a takeoff. Yes, I'm pointing myself into the wind. However, my plane isn't automatically tracking perfectly straight, should it because of the extra tail surface I now have? I understand to avoid crosswind work so a wing doesn't lift, leaving one dragging float in the water resulting in a cartwheel. My instinct is to use rudder to keep a straight takeoff run but what I've read has me a little shy with it and I'm pulling somewhat to the right. I'm getting off ok, but it wasn't always pretty (I've now logged a total of ten takeoffs and landings...more are coming today or tomorrow).

Anyhow, I just don't want to worry about the rudder thing. I want to point into the wind and just use my normal takeoff reflexes to run the thing straight and get up into the air. But I'm pretty new at this and was curious how you folks felt about it. I wasn't sure if you expected the plane to weathervane itself into a straight takeoff run or not.

Antique

My Feedback: (4)

You'll need some water rudder control until you get "on the step", once on the step your flying just the same as you are on wheels. GP floats are more touchy to set up than SIG and require more rudder corrections.

Goinstraightup

My Feedback: (26)

Sounds like something is either dragging in the water or is possibly set up crooked. I'd look for these things as a starting point. Usually when you are up on the step running, the plane tracks pretty straight as the vertical stab is becoming effective. Sometimes an extra fin is attached below the rear of the fuse on float planes, but this is mostly for directional stability in the air. The extra fin helps combat the effects of the extra side load that the floats have in the front of the plane. If nothing else works, then may be one of these fins may help.

Jeff

All Thumbs

Thanks for the quick comeback Antique, I intend to go flying a few hours from now. I think I may have either misinterpreted what I've read before, or took it a little too literally. I'm a "rudder guy" and I'm not too worried about using it to keep a straight track. It's just that the advice I'd been given was to make sure I didn't use much, if any rudder. I think since I'm pointing into the wind that's going to happen automatically and I'm not going to worry about it when I startup today.

The float kit I'm using also came with only one water rudder. That may be part of the problem too maybe. Later on I'm going to switch to a couple of Ernst's.

All Thumbs

Goinstraightup, I did put on the extra fin that came with the kit. I figured better safe than sorry. But you make an interesting point about something dragging in the water. I have only one water rudder. From the article I read, I gave it pretty much a maximum deflection. I've noticed that it doesn't always return exactly to the same center position after I've moved the rudder around (especially when I come back to center from the right position). It's not that far off mind you, and I was thinking that the water pressure would correct that. Now I have my cable fastened well on both ends and I didn't see any movement but there must be some somewhere somehow? I'm going to go over the setup closely before I go flying today. I may be able to tweak it into a better centered position than I thought it was in. Maybe I'm having a directional change as I transition? I'll try to watch it more closely during the takeoff.

jrf

My Feedback: (551)

Be sure that you are actually headed into the wind. Taxi out to the take off area, then throttle back to idle and let the airplane weathervane into the wind. When the airplane stops turning, that's the way the wind is blowing!

Jim

JimCasey

My Feedback: (1)

The water rudder should not stick down more than a half-inch or so past the bottom of the transom. It's in the water to taxi, but out of the water when you're on-step...even when you rotate for takeoff. You DON"T want the rudder dragging in the water when you are trying to go fast.....and DRAGGING is the right word.

With water rudder(s) your plane will probably not weathervane directly into the wind, and the bigger the water rudder, the more it bites into the water. The plane will pivot around a big water rudder and point downwind. Sometimes it helps to give down elevator to lift the water rudders out of the water to get the plane to weathervane INTO the wind.

(Without water rudders, your plane will weathervane nicely into the wind, but you have to know some technique to get it to turn any other way. It can be done.)

That being said, use the rudder the same as if you had wheels when taking off. THe only plane I ever had that had a problem with water rudder on takeoff was a TopFlite Kittiwake. It had a central float and outriggers, and rudder would make the plane lean to the outside like a car, the tip float would catch, and it would come to a big splashy stop. It was a little, twitchy plane. If it was really good they would still be making them. Other planes should not / normally do not- do this.

All Thumbs

Well thanks first of all to everyone helping me answer my original question: I should more or less use the rudder normally. As long as I'm pointing into the wind there will be no need for extraneous rudder input anyway. The big thing is that I will not now be "afraid" to use it like I was lead to believe. Actually I was using it, I just can't help it, and was wondering if I should stop.

That said, I was going over the plane very closely today. I ended up not flying, I'll do that tomorrow. My rudder cable was binding a bit and I replaced it with another brand and it's now moving like silk. The rudder centers up every time and I made sure to oil the cable well (I'm not real excited about cables but it will do for now).

Now, as to what you said Jim...only a half inch hanging below the floats? Wow, I'm so far beyond that it's crazy. As you can see in the attached pic, I'm down just past 3 1/2". Those were the instructions and materials I got in the kit. It's the only way that particular rudder fits. And to think, because of that I thought the Ernst rudders looked kind of small . I figured this one was so big because there was only one. I may be swapping that baby out sooner than I thought.

But...I'm definitely taking advantage of a break in the Ohio weather late tomorrow morning. I think I will cut that rudder down before I go. I've had no problem taxiing, and I think you can see why. Since you can technically taxi without it I don't think I'll worry about cutting it down some. Just to not overdo it, I'll likely first cut it down to half it's depth (but bring some snips with me to the lake).

The rest will be up to me to get in practice anyway. I'm still new at this and I'm working on how everything looks and feels as I speed up, get up on step, etc.

All Thumbs

Well I've just returned from what I can mildly put as an excellant day of float flying. I honestly don't think it could have gone better. I followed the advice in this column and everything went smoothly...many, many thanks to all (if you can't tell, I'm pretty excited, but it was a great day...I'll settle down in about an hour).

I didn't cut my original rudder, just made a new one. I just eyeballed it but it's pretty much half the size. You can see the difference in the attached picture. Between that, my new cable, not worrying about the rudder anymore, and gaining experience...the takeoffs went great. I got about 7 or 8 flights in with about 2-3 takeoff and landings in each one.

There was no more pulling to the side. I would run the plane up with full elevator, see it go up on step, relax the elevator and it tracked very smoothly. I was getting the feeling that I could keep it on the water and gained a lot of confidence letting it gain speed before lifting off. There was only a little rudder correction needed here and there as you'd probably expect.

Our club pond is on the same property as our regular field so I had a few spectators. Float flying is "newish" in our club (the field is three years old) and everyone was impressed with how easy the plane seemed to fly. So thanks for that too .

What a load of fun. I can't wait for Friday when I'll be going again.

JimCasey

My Feedback: (1)

If it works, Have fun. If it's hinged and free-swinging it can be a pretty good setup. If that rivet is tight and your rudder stays that low all the time then I think your rudder would be optimized if you cut off the bottom half of what you have. Your takeoff runs will be shorter, and you haven't experienced it yet, but if there is a breeze, you will be able to turn across it with a smaller rudder.

All Thumbs

It's free swinging Jim. I rubberband it in the up position when transporting. Yeah, it worked very well.

We had about a 5 to 10 mph wind and I taxied without any problems. Once in a while, as I taxied downwind, the plane would resist turning for a moment but that was rare. It seems like you can find a sweet spot, angle-wise, and just go wherever you need to. The wind would seem to want to turn the plane sometimes, but mostly it would go where I'd point it.

Even though the bigger version was free swinging too, I'm pretty convinced it was still causing a little effect on takeoff. I can get off the water in a snap. I'm in the air, gain a little extra speed, and am turning before I even reach the end of our pond. I haven't really thought about it much, but it seems like I'm up and flying well within 100 feet? I'm going to have to have someone else help me guess-timate that because my hands were full and I didn't think about it. It might have been less or might have been more, but I wasn't trying to rush it into the air. The general consensus among other club members was surprise at how quickly and easily it left the water...but it's the only plane I've ever seen float fly so I'm no judge of that.

I'm happy with the performance for the moment. I can't picture it doing much better, but we'll see. For the first time (my third float outing) I felt fully in control...and I liked it! Thanks again for discussing the water rudder. This new one is slightly lighter and thinner (made from a piece of aluminum gutter coil stock I had lying around).

I'm certain I've got more things to learn, and I'll be going at it. I still want to put a pair of Ernst rudders on over this winter.

All Thumbs

Jim, I took the time to check out your club's website. An impressive set of planes. That Beaver has me green with envy (are any of your planes in that set?).

Anyhow, after submitting my post, rereading it and what you wrote, I started thinking about my taxiing. As I said, I really didn't have a problem. But also, I mentioned that sometimes the wind would prevent me from say, going left at the moment. It really was rare and I'd just give in, let the wind turn me around, finish that opposite turn until I was pointed where I wanted, and go on my merry way. That only seemed to happen at a very low power setting...if I got too far out of position (like when someone was talking to me).

When you talked about less rudder allowing you to turn across the wind, is this the issue you were referring to?

Goinstraightup

My Feedback: (26)

Glad everything worked out All Thumbs! Having the pond by your regular wheel site must be interesting. Heheee - the best of both worlds!

All Thumbs

Oh yeah, having both facilities on the same site is very cool! Our pond is something like six or seven hundred feet to the right of our runway. Within site and walking distance. How can you not get into float flying with this going on? As for taking the planes down, there's a dirt access road so there's no need to carry them, but people will take a break from their flying and walk on down to see the water action. That's just starting up for us mostly. I'm not the first, but I'm going to be the biggest promoter I think...I'm hooked!

I'm not the best judge of big distances, but I think our water is something like 1000-1200' long and 400-600' wide (so it's probably bigger). I've got plenty of room to takeoff and land in any direction. Definitely a cool place, one where you can make a few flights off land, then move down to the water and make some wakes in the same afternoon (and in a couple more years, maybe the bass will be big enough to cap things off). Our flight zones probably have about a 25% overlap.

Thanks again for the thought provoking tips! I've got a good start going.

JimCasey

My Feedback: (1)

A Seaplane in a breeze is not as much like a sailboat as it is like a canoe. No keel, and it slides around. It will pivot around whatever part of the float is getting the best grip in the water. If you want to go into the wind, Idle power and maybe a little down elevator will lift the tail and let the front half of the floats do the floating. The center of pressure will be behind the center of wetness(?) and the plane will go into the wind.

If you want to go DOWNWIND, full up elevator and a few clicks of power. the plane will push a big bow-wave, and the tail of the floats will be fully engaged with the water. The plane will pivot around the tail of the floats and go downwind. With really effective water rudder(s) the plane will ONLY go downwind, 'cause the rudders will have such a grip, and when you try to turn crosswind the floats will still slide downwind. I watched my pal Donnie slide the entire length of a pond once trying to get his cub turned into the wind. He tried everything but what might have worked: Down elevator, Full rudder, and a burst of power.

If you want to go crosswind, a little less power but still holding full up, will let the plane rock forward a bit, and find a balance between upwind trim and downwind trim....steer with the throttle. Hold the upwind wing down with the ailerons. Crosswind taxiing is like russian roulette. You're going to regret it sooner or later.

Conventional wisdom is to slap a bigger set of water rudders on. This onlt makes it taxi downwind better, and may keep it from taking off.

If the floats are rigged properly, water takeoffs don't take any more distance than land takeoffs.