Grumman Widgeon
02-24-2009, 08:10 PM
#152
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Edmonton, AB, CANADA
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RE: Grumman Widgeon
Thanks for the prodding guys but I'll need more than that. Considering I can barely get it in my car on a good day I think it will be a few days (weeks) before it sees daylight. Right now my target is the spring float fly at Paddle River or maybe show and tell at a later meeting.
Peter
Peter
03-15-2009, 09:37 PM
#154
RE: Grumman Widgeon
I could very easily make scale gear for the Widgeon and my guess is Robart would or could supply the oleo strut. I know someone who Casts. I wouldn't use air, I'd be more inclined to use electric. Possibly LADO can figure that out? I personally would leave the mechanics, of the operation of the gear, to someone else who has had successful experience. They do have to work repeatedly.
I'm currently working on scale gear for the F3F/G-22, in 1/5 scale, which are similar but different.
Thing is, what scale Widgeon?
Charles
I'm currently working on scale gear for the F3F/G-22, in 1/5 scale, which are similar but different.
Thing is, what scale Widgeon?
Charles
03-16-2009, 12:48 AM
#155
Senior Member
RE: Grumman Widgeon
It is a 1/4 scale from the G&P kit. The Robart gear was based on the hand-built prototype by Al Franklin. It was silver-soldered from steel using Grumman factory drawings. It had a retract tailwheel also. Al used Robart cylinders, tank, valves. Etc. He says he can furnish a drawing.
The F3F, F4F and several grumman amphibians had similar gear geometry, sort of like the front end of a car.
The F3F, F4F and several grumman amphibians had similar gear geometry, sort of like the front end of a car.
03-16-2009, 12:17 PM
#156
RE: Grumman Widgeon
The bottom strut placement appears incorrect in that photo?
I would like those gear drawings. What do I have to do to get them?
I can make the gear parts and have them Cast.
Charles
He says he can furnish a drawing.
I can make the gear parts and have them Cast.
Charles
03-16-2009, 12:28 PM
#157
RE: Grumman Widgeon
ORIGINAL: Avaiojet The bottom strut placement appears incorrect in that photo?
I would like those gear drawings. What do I have to do to get them? I can make the gear parts and have them Cast.
Charles
He says he can furnish a drawing.
Charles
The same but still different...
This can be easily altered to provide the proper stance you require.Century Jet Retract:
Robart MFG:
Minimum differential with length of control arm.
Stainless tube for all control arms with cast intersects or brass intersects.
Car shock absorbs impact energy.
03-16-2009, 03:23 PM
#158
Senior Member
RE: Grumman Widgeon
Here is a picture of the Robart main gear that I took at Bill Price's shop. No gears or chains or sprockets. Pretty clean design. It looks like perhaps there is a spring-loaded "oleo" in the main big strut.
03-16-2009, 04:01 PM
#159
Senior Member
RE: Grumman Widgeon
03-17-2009, 06:30 AM
#160
RE: Grumman Widgeon
Ellysbro,
It appears as though I'm at a lost because I have absolutely no interest in a 25% Widgeon.
Just to big of a monster for me to deal with. I don't believe the majority of Modelers would have interest in that large a model also. Sure, there may be some reading interest, but to actually take on a project like that?
It would be interesting to know exactly where "most" of the interest would be with modelers, as far as size? This would help in determine the size of a Widgeon to model?
Best size anyone?
I'm thinking about a span of somewhere in the 80's. The actual scale can be determined later. The thing I need at the moment, are drawings of the gear of the Widgeon? Boy would this save time.
Certainly it's difficult re-inventing the wheel, especially when you have to hunt down drawings and basicly start from scratch.
Which it appears I'll have to do unless someone already has gear drawings? Gear drawings anyone?
Nice websight and great photos, but no Widgeons with radials? I would only build a Widgeon with radials, but that's me.
There was a time I considered selling my Lake and buying a Widgeon. Back then you could pick one up for a mere 200K. 250K would get you a really nice one.
You have to have a ridiculous amount of money to purchase and operate an airplane like a Widgeon. There's expenses that aren't so obvious.
A Club with the right five guys could make owning one manageable.
Ellysbro, which aircraft is yours?
Charles
It appears as though I'm at a lost because I have absolutely no interest in a 25% Widgeon.
Just to big of a monster for me to deal with. I don't believe the majority of Modelers would have interest in that large a model also. Sure, there may be some reading interest, but to actually take on a project like that?
It would be interesting to know exactly where "most" of the interest would be with modelers, as far as size? This would help in determine the size of a Widgeon to model?
Best size anyone?
I'm thinking about a span of somewhere in the 80's. The actual scale can be determined later. The thing I need at the moment, are drawings of the gear of the Widgeon? Boy would this save time.
Certainly it's difficult re-inventing the wheel, especially when you have to hunt down drawings and basicly start from scratch.
Which it appears I'll have to do unless someone already has gear drawings? Gear drawings anyone?
Nice websight and great photos, but no Widgeons with radials? I would only build a Widgeon with radials, but that's me.
There was a time I considered selling my Lake and buying a Widgeon. Back then you could pick one up for a mere 200K. 250K would get you a really nice one.
You have to have a ridiculous amount of money to purchase and operate an airplane like a Widgeon. There's expenses that aren't so obvious.
A Club with the right five guys could make owning one manageable.
Ellysbro, which aircraft is yours?
Charles
03-17-2009, 09:46 AM
#161
RE: Grumman Widgeon
I am suggesting 4 cycle use on the web page where it appears for sale. As for the round cowl version that is of little issue considering that is a cosmetic differential and not structural. The firewall and nacelle width at the firewall is changed to accommodate the differential.
As for differential details and retracts
I don't see any real issues considering a friend does precision scale gear. Compared to the Tu-95 the G-44's gear isn't more than Paul is used to making. By the way...#5 in the image above is a screw jack.
The retracting tail wheel is straight forward as well. It is really not different than a Robart unit of proper size.
Documentation and line art detail is found in a very convenient form in Alan Able's CD-ROM containing the Paul Matt drawings available on the Wind Canyon Books web site. I obtained these when Alan and his mother owned Aviation Heritage. The G-44 Widgeon was in their Archive 2 CD. It is the G-44A and not a radial.
03-17-2009, 12:07 PM
#162
Senior Member
RE: Grumman Widgeon
You wrote a book, but I will try to give you an answer or opinion on each issue you raised. I designed and built the first ever RC Widgeon in 1967/8. It had a 70 inch span, about 1/7 scale. It was too small and too heavy. Plans and constuction article still available from Flying Models Magazine (if they have not gone out of business yet). It was in the Sept. 1968 issue. I used the Paul Matt 3-views from the Historical Aircraft Album and some actual Widgeon photos for reference.
A local modeler, Henry Arance, designed and built a very successful 72 inch electric version, that took off without porpoising and flew beautifully. I would go to at least 1/6 scale if I did it again, about 80 inch span like Effinger's, and keep the weight down. Beware of plans offered by folks like Effinger, or the RCM plan. They are not scale (example: longerons on the sides of the fuselage), and in Effinger's case, I doubt if he actually built and flew all of his designs. His Lake Amphibian plan had a one piece wing, but no way to install or remove it was included.
I like my 1/4 scale "Big Monster". When I heard about this fellow Al Franklin in the Seattle area, who had designed and built a 1/4 scale, I just had to have one. It was easy to build, because the G&P kit has molded fiberglass hull, nacelles and tip floats, already bonded together from two halves, and also foam cores for the wings and tail. It fits the Robart retract gear. With the two outer wing panels removed, it is only 4 feet wide by about 7 feet long, and it fits nicely into my standard Aerostar minivan (middle and rear bench seats removed) I have towed it all over, even up to Canada, behind my motor home.
I contacted Al, and he no longer has the Grumman Drawings. My early 1/7 scale and my current 1/4 scale flew only off the water, so dummy wheels were in the wheel wells. I did have a sketch for a a proposed retract gear on the Flying Models plan. I have been thinking about entering my 1/4 scla in Scale Masters competition, so I would need a retract set.
The Widgeons with round engines look to me too much like a Goose. The classic Ranger engine nacelles give the Widgeon its beautiful distinctive kind of cute look. But "whatever floats your boat", as they say. In the flickriver photos, the big white, maroon, and yellow striped model on the beach near an awning, marked teamerica, is mine. In an earlier Coast guard paint scheme, you can see it fly on YouTube.
A local modeler, Henry Arance, designed and built a very successful 72 inch electric version, that took off without porpoising and flew beautifully. I would go to at least 1/6 scale if I did it again, about 80 inch span like Effinger's, and keep the weight down. Beware of plans offered by folks like Effinger, or the RCM plan. They are not scale (example: longerons on the sides of the fuselage), and in Effinger's case, I doubt if he actually built and flew all of his designs. His Lake Amphibian plan had a one piece wing, but no way to install or remove it was included.
I like my 1/4 scale "Big Monster". When I heard about this fellow Al Franklin in the Seattle area, who had designed and built a 1/4 scale, I just had to have one. It was easy to build, because the G&P kit has molded fiberglass hull, nacelles and tip floats, already bonded together from two halves, and also foam cores for the wings and tail. It fits the Robart retract gear. With the two outer wing panels removed, it is only 4 feet wide by about 7 feet long, and it fits nicely into my standard Aerostar minivan (middle and rear bench seats removed) I have towed it all over, even up to Canada, behind my motor home.
I contacted Al, and he no longer has the Grumman Drawings. My early 1/7 scale and my current 1/4 scale flew only off the water, so dummy wheels were in the wheel wells. I did have a sketch for a a proposed retract gear on the Flying Models plan. I have been thinking about entering my 1/4 scla in Scale Masters competition, so I would need a retract set.
The Widgeons with round engines look to me too much like a Goose. The classic Ranger engine nacelles give the Widgeon its beautiful distinctive kind of cute look. But "whatever floats your boat", as they say. In the flickriver photos, the big white, maroon, and yellow striped model on the beach near an awning, marked teamerica, is mine. In an earlier Coast guard paint scheme, you can see it fly on YouTube.
03-17-2009, 12:25 PM
#163
RE: Grumman Widgeon
The Bill Effinger design has a scale outline and is structurally sound in that Bill was an aeronautical and mechanical engineer unlike the "mass" build designers that people are familiar with...take these three blocks and a profile...carve until shape matches profile. All noted designers...Ziroli, Smith, and Effinger provide the basis for a scale project...not an end to it within themselves.
The single most important element is gross weight and mechanical design. We are enhancing Effinger's designs by changing the wing attachments and the number of pieces some wings are comprised of to include three piece and four piece wing attachment instead of a single wing section. This includes new fiber glass where needed.
While nothing is perfect, the 1/6th scale Widgeon by Effinger embodies the best of all worlds for modern scale modelers with its light wing loading, large presence, open interior to permit optimum placement of gear with plenty of room for a scale interior. CAD is being used to enhance each design as orders are received for laser cut wood of a design.
Currently each planset is being cleaned up. As was the case with most designers prior to CAD's use for this, planset masters became worn, dirty, etc which renders specks and small spots over the paper master. When doing CAD conversions and enhancement these have to be deleted...so they are currently being dry cleaned so to speak.
Using stainless tube and minimum castings will permt creation of a scale retract gear with minimum difficulty. Making a flat plane card board model of the mechanism will permit you to achieve proper movement with minimum resistance through the motion path. Screw jacks offer a smooth and effecient means to achieve scale movement with an added benefit of it being "slow" enough to be seen and appreciated from a score standpoint. That is a nice "halo" value. : )
The single most important element is gross weight and mechanical design. We are enhancing Effinger's designs by changing the wing attachments and the number of pieces some wings are comprised of to include three piece and four piece wing attachment instead of a single wing section. This includes new fiber glass where needed.
While nothing is perfect, the 1/6th scale Widgeon by Effinger embodies the best of all worlds for modern scale modelers with its light wing loading, large presence, open interior to permit optimum placement of gear with plenty of room for a scale interior. CAD is being used to enhance each design as orders are received for laser cut wood of a design.
Currently each planset is being cleaned up. As was the case with most designers prior to CAD's use for this, planset masters became worn, dirty, etc which renders specks and small spots over the paper master. When doing CAD conversions and enhancement these have to be deleted...so they are currently being dry cleaned so to speak.
Using stainless tube and minimum castings will permt creation of a scale retract gear with minimum difficulty. Making a flat plane card board model of the mechanism will permit you to achieve proper movement with minimum resistance through the motion path. Screw jacks offer a smooth and effecient means to achieve scale movement with an added benefit of it being "slow" enough to be seen and appreciated from a score standpoint. That is a nice "halo" value. : )
03-17-2009, 01:13 PM
#164
Senior Member
RE: Grumman Widgeon
I am waiting patiently for the improved Effinger plans (and will there be kits?) I don't agree about the scale outline, the nose and vertical tail don't look right to me in the partial plan you show, and I have never seen a Widgeon with longerons on the side of the hull. If he was such a good engineer, why could he not have designed some practical wing attachments? I do endorse keeping the weight down. Instead of cleaning up a non-scale plan for a model that may have never been built and flown by the designer, why not start from scratch? If non-scale, "sort of a Widgeon" plans are OK, why not improve the water handling and flying qualities by the following:
1. Move the first step forward to be under the C.G. and make it deeper. (the "Petulant Porpoise" experimental hull would make an interesting scale model)
2. Lengthen the tail moment.
3. Increase the area of the horizontal tail feathers.
4. Take out the wing incidence and upthrust. Make it "zero-zero".
I don't want to hurt your commercial plans for plans, because I am a potential customer, if they are good. But I have seen over 50 model Widgeon flights, and built and flown three of them, so I know of what I speak. I am especially interested in the Lake Amphibian. Good luck with your project!
1. Move the first step forward to be under the C.G. and make it deeper. (the "Petulant Porpoise" experimental hull would make an interesting scale model)
2. Lengthen the tail moment.
3. Increase the area of the horizontal tail feathers.
4. Take out the wing incidence and upthrust. Make it "zero-zero".
I don't want to hurt your commercial plans for plans, because I am a potential customer, if they are good. But I have seen over 50 model Widgeon flights, and built and flown three of them, so I know of what I speak. I am especially interested in the Lake Amphibian. Good luck with your project!
03-17-2009, 01:49 PM
#165
RE: Grumman Widgeon
Widgeon enthusiasts,
I believe that 80" or 1/6 scale, (yet to be determined) could be perfect.
Scale outlines? That has to be determined also.
I'm at an advantage because I have no bias, and represent no one and am promoting no body. Is that good?
Anyway, if a kit is in progress, I have patients but please tell me more about what's going on? Exactly what can we expect? Is the "buyers" input important?
Keep in mind, I have noticed that many designers have a tendency to over design and to over build. I really like to keep things simple, as it should be.
I personally would hope, foam wings, and for 80", I would choose a "one piece" wing. Yea, I know, a bit clumsily. But so what? [:@]
Three piece wing? That's a bunch of work.
Fiberglass fuselage? Most likely and unfortunately it will be Epoxy. I prefer polyester but let's not get into the chemistry, there's already a Thread on that.
Gear? Will there be gear available that appears to be somewhat scale to a good percentage? Electrically activated is the only way to go in my opinion. If I did gear, it would be electric.
Someone told me once where to get engineered three-views by Paul Matt? Did he do a Widgeon?
Drawings of the Widgeon gear? Anyone?
More information on this mystery kit?
Who is interested in building a Widgeon at 80"? Kit or scratch?
Anyone prefer the "original" look, that is, radials?
I'll go first, ME!
I believe that 80" or 1/6 scale, (yet to be determined) could be perfect.
Scale outlines? That has to be determined also.
I'm at an advantage because I have no bias, and represent no one and am promoting no body. Is that good?
Anyway, if a kit is in progress, I have patients but please tell me more about what's going on? Exactly what can we expect? Is the "buyers" input important?
Keep in mind, I have noticed that many designers have a tendency to over design and to over build. I really like to keep things simple, as it should be.
I personally would hope, foam wings, and for 80", I would choose a "one piece" wing. Yea, I know, a bit clumsily. But so what? [:@]
Three piece wing? That's a bunch of work.
Fiberglass fuselage? Most likely and unfortunately it will be Epoxy. I prefer polyester but let's not get into the chemistry, there's already a Thread on that.
Gear? Will there be gear available that appears to be somewhat scale to a good percentage? Electrically activated is the only way to go in my opinion. If I did gear, it would be electric.
Someone told me once where to get engineered three-views by Paul Matt? Did he do a Widgeon?
Drawings of the Widgeon gear? Anyone?
More information on this mystery kit?
Who is interested in building a Widgeon at 80"? Kit or scratch?
Anyone prefer the "original" look, that is, radials?
I'll go first, ME!
03-17-2009, 01:50 PM
#166
RE: Grumman Widgeon
Again, no one's design is an end unto itself. If you do not like plans as they exist, simply change them to fit your opinion...that's why this is a hobby, remember : ) As I said there are laser cut short cuts available...today. Multiple piece wings are of no consequence considering parting point just outside each nacelle. All enhancements are on additional pages, leaving original designs as they are to preserve Bill's work.
The Lake has already been converted to laser and cut. Latest update incorporates removable wings just outside fuselage and a near trailing edge bolt for retention and alignment.
The Lake has already been converted to laser and cut. Latest update incorporates removable wings just outside fuselage and a near trailing edge bolt for retention and alignment.
03-17-2009, 03:13 PM
#167
RE: Grumman Widgeon
These are built up designs, obviously to achieve 7# weight @ 80" w/s it will be a built up construction.
Further details are available at http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/BAWET/...l_Effinger.htm There is laser cut wood available for these designs as well as fiber glass, wheels, dummy engines, etc.
Not to sound rude...what more could a modeler want for...? An ARF or ARC? ;^ )
03-17-2009, 08:51 PM
#169
RE: Grumman Widgeon
I wish I had the time to read every single word to every reply or response.
Unfortunately, at this time, I don't.
I did read some, in fact, much of the Thread. I also read my Post which I forgot all about. Age?
Yes Paul Matt did a set and I will buy them? Plans at 1/6 scale would be great and so would a short cut kit. As long as it was priced reasonably.
Bill's model is at 78" in span. How did he arive at that?
I did mention that a 1/6 scale model would be perfect. Glass fuse would be nice also. Anyone offer one at 1/6 scale?
Looks like Buddy Quails does at 80". Does he still offer a kit? Anyone know how to reach Buddy Quails?
The question of scale outlines did come up, but I'm not extremely picky. Really close can be fine also.
Bill's gear from Robart, is it actually for a Widgeon at 1/6 scale, or the scale for a 78" model? Offered for sale by Robart?
The Seawings website has what I need, in drawings. Can they be purchased? Seawings website has no contact information?
I still like big round nacelles.
Charles
Unfortunately, at this time, I don't.
I did read some, in fact, much of the Thread. I also read my Post which I forgot all about. Age?
Yes Paul Matt did a set and I will buy them? Plans at 1/6 scale would be great and so would a short cut kit. As long as it was priced reasonably.
Bill's model is at 78" in span. How did he arive at that?
I did mention that a 1/6 scale model would be perfect. Glass fuse would be nice also. Anyone offer one at 1/6 scale?
Looks like Buddy Quails does at 80". Does he still offer a kit? Anyone know how to reach Buddy Quails?
The question of scale outlines did come up, but I'm not extremely picky. Really close can be fine also.
Bill's gear from Robart, is it actually for a Widgeon at 1/6 scale, or the scale for a 78" model? Offered for sale by Robart?
The Seawings website has what I need, in drawings. Can they be purchased? Seawings website has no contact information?
I still like big round nacelles.
Charles
03-17-2009, 09:14 PM
#170
RE: Grumman Widgeon
That would be Bill "Mr. Berkeley" Effinger. Send an email to [email protected] and I will send G-44 three view. Design is 1/6th built up. You could use foam, however it would be lighter as built up. Planset and laser cut short kit available. Click for details: http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/BAWET/...l_Effinger.htm
Ed
03-17-2009, 09:58 PM
#171
RE: Grumman Widgeon
Ed,
Where's Bill's pricing at in that website?
His model isn't 1/6 scale or it would have an 80" span and not 78". Unless that's incorrect information?
Are his wings built up? One would think foam is of stronger construction for the wing, because of the beating the floats and wing will take? My model will have foam wings.
What do you know about Buddy Quail's glass kit?
Charles
Where's Bill's pricing at in that website?
His model isn't 1/6 scale or it would have an 80" span and not 78". Unless that's incorrect information?
Are his wings built up? One would think foam is of stronger construction for the wing, because of the beating the floats and wing will take? My model will have foam wings.
What do you know about Buddy Quail's glass kit?
Charles
03-17-2009, 10:23 PM
#172
RE: Grumman Widgeon
Replies in BLUE
ORIGINAL: Avaiojet Ed, Where's Bill's pricing at in that website?
Simply go the the amphibian section of the index on the left
His model isn't 1/6 scale or it would have an 80" span and not 78".
[b]The span is 80", who said it was 78"?[/b]
Unless that's incorrect information?
Yes
Are his wings built up?
In every post I have stated these are built up designs
One would think foam is of stronger construction for the wing, because of the beating the floats and wing will take?
[b]Actually a simple C/F vail will provide all the torsional strength required for a superior built up structure.[/b]
My model will have foam wings.
[b]You can easily cut your own or have someone else cut foam wings for this design if you are dead set on using high tensile foam instead of compliant built up. I use a lot of foam on scale projects but would not on anything that will have a sudden right angle stress applied to it as will occur during landing.[/b]
What do you know about Buddy Quail's glass kit?
Any glass amphibian will be heavier than a built up of comparable size. I have a lot of composite experience, polyester as well as epoxy. It is not my intention to re-invent plansets that are excellent to begin with...:^) Laser cut short kits are by far less expensive to complete with next to do building time differential to that of glass when done properly.
Charles
Simply go the the amphibian section of the index on the left
His model isn't 1/6 scale or it would have an 80" span and not 78".
[b]The span is 80", who said it was 78"?[/b]
Unless that's incorrect information?
Yes
Are his wings built up?
In every post I have stated these are built up designs
One would think foam is of stronger construction for the wing, because of the beating the floats and wing will take?
[b]Actually a simple C/F vail will provide all the torsional strength required for a superior built up structure.[/b]
My model will have foam wings.
[b]You can easily cut your own or have someone else cut foam wings for this design if you are dead set on using high tensile foam instead of compliant built up. I use a lot of foam on scale projects but would not on anything that will have a sudden right angle stress applied to it as will occur during landing.[/b]
What do you know about Buddy Quail's glass kit?
Any glass amphibian will be heavier than a built up of comparable size. I have a lot of composite experience, polyester as well as epoxy. It is not my intention to re-invent plansets that are excellent to begin with...:^) Laser cut short kits are by far less expensive to complete with next to do building time differential to that of glass when done properly.
Charles
03-18-2009, 05:00 PM
#174
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Edmonton, AB, CANADA
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RE: Grumman Widgeon
Since the request for input as to what size to kit a Widgeon I would like to suggest 1/5 scale. My 1/6 scale widgeon is beginning to put on ome weight now. No retracts but two 61 four strokes. Servos, battery pack and some nose weight and I am beginning to get concerned. At 1/5 scale two 90-125 four strokes could be used and there would be a reserve of wing area for the addition of retracts etc. 96" is a bit big for easy transport but people seem to manage no matter what the size. (Bigger trailer).
Peter
Peter
03-18-2009, 05:58 PM
#175
RE: Grumman Widgeon
Given the details are mostly cosmetic and easily replicated. If the cylinder were such that it was out of sight..what do you guys think of this for the mains? I prefer welded tube or rectangle to machined stock. Appreciate all input as I try to decide what way I will address the need. Robart has a tail wheel that will work very well. To make the mechanics and the photo make sense...compression strut "folds" inboard during retraction arc.
