Avaiojet

I have drawings for the Widgeon gear downloaded. I'll see if they will print out with decent DPI's? Be nice to have the source to purchase them on paper?

I will order the Paul Matt drawings next week.

I'd like to have a list of everyone offering a plan set for the Widgeon? Especially one with radials and in any scale.

96" again is too large for my likings. 80" is perfect. Glass fuse and foam wings is a great set up which I will attempt to pursue.

More info on Buddy Quails and his glass fuselage would be appreciated. Really appreciated.

For those that have them, keep in mind that any built Widgeon fuselage could be turned into a plug to produce a glass fuse.

Peter, could be an opportunity for your "weight gain" Widgeon fuse. You would get a free one.

Buddy Quail and plan sets?

Anyone?

Charles

FliteMetal

You keep mentioning Buddy Quail. Who and where is he from? Nothing returns on internet searches

Donairplane

My Feedback: (3)

Hi, I would like to see a 1/5 scale Widgeon kit. Had plans for 1/4 scale, but just too big and heavy to move around. Sold plans looking for a smaller one now. Not sold on a 80 inch yet but maybe if thats all I can get. Don.

Avaiojet

Don, Ed

96" or 110", they are both monsters. Just do the math on the cost alone.

80" is still a good size model for a ONE PIECE WING?.

Certainly, build whatever you want, go 14', I won't stop you, in fact, I'll help if I can, but it's unfortunate that many individuals are in different directions. There are many threads like this, it's just the way it is. Plenty of interest but that's about it.

Thing is, you wait for good plans or a good kit and it never comes. Same with the gear. You also sometimes never get sound information on kits that are already available, especially if unpopular. Plus, it seems these kits are a bit costly.

I was involved with a similar Bamboo Bomber Thread. Spent some time in it, even drew my own scale outline drawings from Paul Matt drawings. The Thread really didn't go anywere, that is, no results or serious building interest continued or took place

Sure, there were suggestions and replies, but to my best knowledge, no actual building in the model size I suggested.

So, here I am now, with builders plans to an 84" Bamboo Bomber with great scale outlines, plus a set of foam wings, fiberglass nacelles and fiberglass cowlings. I have the gear drawn to scale and am selecting parts from Robart that will enable me to have accurate looking retract gear.

Another Thread I took part in was the Grumman F3F-1, but actually the G-22. The same activity took place with no building. The Threads end.

So, here I am with Builders plans to a 72" G-22 with great scale outlines, plus a chosen airfoil for the built up wings, (bi-plane.) All fuselage parts are drawn and ready to be cut. I have the scale gear drawn, similar to the Widgeon BTW, and I will soom make a scale mark-up to have the gear parts Cast. I'll see what happens with that, should be interesting.

I'm curious to see where the Widgeon thing goes. Yes, I would buy a kit, why not. To do this, I would need more information. Information about what's available. I'm not inclined to through hard earned money away and I can't afford to do that.

I'm a scratch builder, so eventually I'll have the Widgeon model, but why re-invent the wheel? Also, in my case, I don't expect to build any Widgeon model soon. I have other things going, but I can get some items out of the way or completed.

Like the gear.

I know of no kit or plans that offer scale retract gear in 1/6 scale. Or did I miss something?

I'm starting with the gear. Mine will be 1/6 scale.

Charles

ScaleAero

IMHO:

Considering the current economy, I can't see anyone introducing something "new" with respect to a kit. Refarming designs is what a lot of people are doing these days. The hobby is headed to its roots and into electrics as fast as it can to reduce cost. I see no shortage of advanced trainers, J-3's, and the like...amidst the shrinking traditional scale "kit" market.

Everyone enters this hobby envisioning them flying a scale whatever...not the trainer they learned to fly with...and all too often learned to "build" with. ARF's eliminate about 80% of the vestment of time, though in the end...most people still want something to get their feet wet with respect to the building process. There-in is the answer to designs that don't require exotic construction tools... unless you consider a schroll saw exotic :^)

Look across the landscape of scale designs and you don't find too many designs that are not what I call mass build...gluing blocks of wood and carving by comparison to a three view. An excellent example of that is the most successful scale model kit company to ever exist....Marutaka. Back then, people didn't expect to open a box and find all the more difficult to shape parts appearing in plastic or fiber glass. Yet, before it left the scene Marutaka had introduced pre-shaped aka formed sheet balsa components, fiber glass ARC designs, and more than their fair share of urethane foam and Styrene parts.

Today, through the benefit of many good designs being ten, fifteen, or even twenty years old and having specialty glass companies do fiber glass and plastic replacement or alternative parts for them...you benefit with lighter, stronger, and more effecient scale planes.
To each his own...but remember a traditional "kit" is probably not on your horizon unless you want to spend close to 1,300+ Euro. Its out there and can be shipped withn 24 hours. http://www.paf-flugmodelle.de/Film/Widgeon.wmv Its only a click away...

Chip_Mull

My Feedback: (1)

There has been more activity on this thread this week than there has been in years. Yes, we produced a 1/4 scale widgeon kit and sold less than a handfull. The same with the landing gear. THE most complex gear Robart has ever produced and again less than a handful. That's why they discontinued them. We've heard lots of talk but when the kit was made available the silence was deafening.

Avaiojet

You made a mistake, it's that simple. 1/4 scale is just too large. You can pitch them all day long, guys will dream, but you won't make sales. You know this because you experienced it. You just said so.

The cost? I owned a Lake LA4-200T for quite a few years. Enough years to put 377 hours in it. I've owned other "real" aircraft also. Even with the cost of owning airplanes and enjoying General Aviation, which I can honestly understand, I can't, for the life of me, understand the cost of a 1/4 Widgeon. It's a MONSTER in many ways.

KISS. And I'm all set with size, I have nothing to prove.

1/6 scale, and you be selling a bunch, I would buy two! And my guess is, Robart would still be offering the gear.

Dittos with the Bamboo Bomber. 101" and only a half dozen built or sold. A monster. Yes, Robart no longer makes the gear for the T-50. Gee?

My Bamboo Bomber will be 84". Perfect![>:]

A widgeon at 80" is affordable, can be transported easily, is large enough to detail, choice of engines are plentiful, engine price and servo price won't kill you, and the entire building project is more than practical, and get this, you don't and won't need assistance, from anyone else, to fly the thing!

Don't get me wrong, big is fine for those that like big. But I never would have embarked on a venture producing a 1/4 scale Widgeon.

I'm just a bit more practical.

I'll build my 80", it'll be fine and turn just as many heads. If that's what you're into?

Charles
cfcgraphics.com

PeterC

Charles,
The fuselage on my Mr. G's Widgeon is fiberglass and it is very light. Just an empty shell with two servos, receiver and battery pack. It's the wing. Any twin I have ever built has a heavy wing. It's probably just that most planes are single engine and the concentration of weight is in the fuselage so when a fully loaded twin wing comes along the weight seems astronomical. I just weighted mine and currently it is 12-1/2# with perhaps another pound to go. Wing area is around 1100 sq." so perhaps it will be OK. It's no lightweight though and I really dont see any way of saving any significant amount of weight even with a built up wing. I like foam wings because when they get dunked, and they all do, you don't have to spend hours drying them out.
Peter

PeterC

OK, here they are, hot off the press. Finally the weather is nice enough to get outside and take some photos. I've been badgered long enough.
I hope this works, if not I'll try again.
Peter

ellysbro

Peter,

Congratulations! It looks like a Widgeon!

In Scale Masters static judging, you would lose a few points for the following nit-picks:

1. Side windows should have rounded corners (perhaps your final paint scheme will correct this).
2. Tops of windshields curve upward a bit much toward the sides. (We don't want it mistaken for a Goose). It should be one smooth concave curve from one side to the other, without an apparent dip in the center. Again, maybe the final paint will fix this.
3. Tip floats look a bit small.

It looks great and should fly like a bird.

Chip_Mull

My Feedback: (1)

Aviojet:
Kind of arrogant aren't you? What I said and implied was we built to what people said they wanted. There's a lot of difference in selling plans and selling planes. Just because you think you have figured out the science of model builders by producing an 80" Widgeon I still don't think we will see clouds of Widgeons flying around.

More power to you.

PeterC

Thanks Oscar, I decided a long time ago in this build that this plane was so far off scale that I was not going to worry about scale judging. I build my planes to enjoy the flying and to have something different. You are right about the windows but I followed the mold lines in the fuselage and this is pretty much how they turned out. Yea, the windshield is a bit flat across the top but I can live with it. Maybe the tip floats look a bit small but I think it might be the camera angle. I think they are about right, besides, I only have myself to answer to. If the wingtips sink in the water then I will agree with you. Other things which determined this planes non-suitability for scale is the entire upper, rear fuselage. It is round in section and we all know the crisp, angular lines of the Widgeon fuselage. I just hope it will be a nice, scalish, sport flyer.
Peter

PeterC

Chip and Charles, play nice. Face it, you arn't going to sell many of anything unless it's a ARF these days.
Peter

rzapp

hi Peter it looks good to me. it's taken awhile but your almost there. so you have to bring it to the show and tell at our next meeting

Avaiojet

Chip,

My entire response wasn't meant to be arrogant, actually to the contrary. I'm surprised you read it that way?

From past experience and 55 years of modeling, one does become observant. There's a "selected" area of this hobby just for, well, make the list.

Different strokes for different folks?

The "Sport" end of the hobby probably leads the market in gross sales revenues. Just a guess. The selected "high end" stuff, although they would like it to believe they are at the top of the list, are probably dead last.

I like in between but near the bottom.

As a designer and scratch builder, I have to pick and choose my subjects carefully. I don't like biting off more than I can chew. Especially with my attention deficit issue. I bounce around from model to model, generally never getting any one of them completed. I must say though, I have taken on interesting projects.

The Widgeon is important to me. I actually had Mr. G's Widgeon. I elected to sell it to a modeler that begged me for it. Who eventually sold the kit. Great guy.

The 1/6 works well at 80", that's all I'm trying to say. Sure, be nice if a dozen guys had interest in 1/6 scale gear. That would spread the casting cost out considerably. But I don't sell gear. I mentioned this once or twice with no interest. I know all about no interest, so I do understand your issues with your Widgeon efforts at 110".

Certainly, you must have a great Widgeon?

And back to your efforts, I honestly applaud them. I view the creation of any model that size as remarkable.

Charles

Avaiojet

Peter,

Grate looking Widgeon, even at all white! I downloaded your photos, thanks.

I do keep hoping I can pick up a Mr. G kit.

More photos when you do the trim colors. OK?

Charles

ellysbro

Thanks, Peter,

I didn't realize that the upper rear fuselage had rounded corners. The RCM one had those and some port holes in the nacelles, like an old Buick. Sexy, but not scale. But it probably flew better and handled better on the water, because it was "stretched".

Another thing I noticed after the last post was that the wing is way too thick at the tips. The Widgeon had like a 23012 airfoil at the tip. Maybe that is why the floats look small.

To those who keep saying 1/4 scale is a "Monster", I guess that you are entitled to your opinion, but there is a whole modeling community out there, IMAA, that generally build 1/4 scale and larger. (An 81 inch Widgeon would fit IMAA rules.) My original reason for starting to build big was that my eyes were going bad with cateracts. I couldn't see the smaller models well enough to fly them safely. That has now been fixed, But I like the majestic, smooth flight of a big scale-like model.

I own 25% and 31% Cubs, a 25% Beech Musketeer, a 75 inch standard Lazy Ace, a Stream Schneider Sport 120, the 25% Widgeon, a 25% J-3 Kitten and until recently, a 33% Ercoupe. I am presently building a 25% Fleet Model 2. All but the Beechcraft have flown on floats or will fly on floats. They all fit in my standard size Aerostar minivan. (Not all at the same time!) By using gas engines, I can hold the fuel costs down.

As I said before, "Whatever turns you on", "Whatever floats your boat", "Different strokes for different folks", and so on. But I would not call a small model a "toy".

ellysbro

I watched the film and looked up the web site of PAF. Gorgeous model and expert pilot! Still a little Widgeon porpoise now and then. Electric power with two big 1000W motors and Li-Po packs will cost some. 2000W is almost 3 hp., sounds about right for a 1/5 scale. Rough conversion makes it 96 inch wingspan and 19 pounds. Sounds about right! Don't know about the retracts, though.

ellysbro

Peter, How did you get the pushrods to the elevators?

Chip_Mull

My Feedback: (1)

Aviojet:

That's the problem with this internet thing. Inflections are easily misunderstood. The only mistake we made was expecting to produce enough kits to reward Al Franklin for his efforts. I think everyone that was serious about building one, got one. I've only been modeling for 52 years and still have lots to learn.

Al designed a great airplane with few changes to the original design. Hi airfoil was a collaborative effort with a Boeing engineer and flies beautifully. Unfortunatley there are only two Widgeons still flying with the original design, mine and Oscars (I think). The center section is almost a flat bottom transitioning to a semetrical airfoil at the tip. She doesn't really stall but rather increases the rate of descent that can be controlled with the throttle. The washout is built in with the airfoils. Very similar to the T-6 Madera race planes.

If you will go to this link: http://www.rcairplane.net/index3.html You will see Bill Prices 81" Widgeon.

"The 81" version has all the same parts and the 1/4 scale but comes with all the wood you need to build it and an extensive hardware pack. I is designed for .40 - .50 2 stroke engines or 52 -53 size 4 stroke engines. The landing gear is built by G&P and features air cylinders and valves by Spring Air. "

I can't see weight being enough of an issue to laser cut balsa and build your own molds for cowls and floats. But, what ever blows your skirt up.

PeterC

Hi Oscar,
Re the pushrods to the elevator. The kit had a bellcrank and mount located a short distance behind where the rear step s inside the fuselage. The bellcrank puts the upper end not too far below the stab. with the horns to lower it a bit and splitting the pushrod from the bellcrank to the elevators it worked out quite well. The only problem is that I had to use 2-56 rod and they are a bit bendy but the run is short so there should not be too much of a problem. You sure have to have skinny arms or recruit a 5 year old to reach in the rear of the fuselage.
Peter

Avaiojet

Chip,

Thanks for the kind reply and the link to G&P.

My apologies on your 1/4 scale Widgeon, I actually thought it was 110" in span but it's really 10 feet! WOW, even more remarkable. Kudos.

About the G&P 81" Widgeon? I was told or read someplace that the fuselage was not of scale outline, in that it was stretched a bit, but I don't know how much or even if it's true?

I will contact G&P and ask about that offering. That kit might just work out for me. I have two NIB Enya .50 and two NIB Just Engines 57's but more than likely, I'll go with what others have had success with. Two good 60's?

BTW. I only have interest in a Widgeon for myself, I'm not researching Widgeon possibilities to produce and sell kits.

I have enough problems with what I do for a living now!

Thanks again,

Charles

ScaleAero

Say What ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
I suppose in some circles 80" monoplane rule might be considered effective only after the next full inch However IMAA begins with the first full inch after 79" w/s.

Not intending to be picky, but seems this thread tends to wander to the edges of a cotton field from time to time...then back on target.

ScaleAero

Bill Price only has 1/4 scale fiber glass cowls and nacelles. When I spoke with Bill he said he's entertaining doing molds adn we cold work something out if the Germans are not friendly enough to share. I've got a guy in Jersey that has expressed interest in doing my glass work. I hope the Germans are interested in selling nacelles and cowls seperately.

I'm leaning toward doing a CAD drawing of the mains with proportions to permit someone to construct the pair of lower arms out of brass box with a faux compression strut over an air cylinder rod. If someone wants scale gear...the Grumman line drawing is included to give them something to follow. Brass works well in triangulated structures where it only serves as a standoff. My He-111e gear are brass and plenty strong enough.

ellysbro

Chip,

I guess that I have to plead guilty and throw myself on the mercy of the court. Back in February of this year, I posted a request for info on the Robart 1/4 scale Widgeon Gear. Since my Ercoupe crashed at the Scale Masters Championships in Florida last October, the only potentially competitive scale model that I own is the Widgeon, and I would need to install the retracts to compete. This recent frenetic activity on this thread seemed to start then, but I still don't have the retracts. My new Fleet PT-6A probably will not be ready for another year.

Incidently, Al says that his main gear had a second small locking cylinder, in addition to the larger retracting cylinder, on each main gear. He couldn't use the Grumman chain and sprocket Wildcat gear approach, as he wanted a scale interior, and the Wildcat gear would have blocked the whole cabin.