Easy lines & rivets
 

This subject has been discussed several times in several threads, but the question keeps comming up, how do you make pannel lines and rivets ?. I have played around with this myself and hears what I came up with. Scribed lines and rivets how to do.

The first thing you have to do is prepare the surface and this is important because it will dictate the out come. Prior to the final priming ( asuming it's getting painted ) the surface must be cleaned with a laquer/enamel prep solvent useing micro fiber towels. Just dampen the towel don't soak it and clean it until you don't see any more dust on cloth. As soon as it dries it's ready to primer. I use Dupli-Color laquer but enamel will do also. I let it cure a whole week in heated shop before I do anything else. Get the primer on as uniform as possible, the thickness is what you have to scribe on. You may want to sand it very lightly with 6 to 9 hundred grit paper with 1/4 foam between paper and block. wipe it down ( I use a fine hair round brush on vacume hose to remove most of the dust first ) you'll use the solvent again after detail is put in.

Tools needed are scribes, carbide straight, ( Lowe's ) and dental picks ( they make the beat scribes ) They are so hard if you try straighten one out it will break off but once it's sharpened it will stay sharp. Go to your dentist, they just throw them away. Rulers, the thinner the better and if they don't have cork backing you can spray them with contact cement and when it dries it's not sticky. Now your rulers won't slide around, we don't want a slip at this time. Styrene clear sheets to make rivet patterns, fuel tank and hatch handels and so on. !/6"and 1/8" brass tube.

Lay out the pannel lines by very lightly marking with a # 2 pencil, don't mark any interior lines until all pannels are scribed. Fine line between pannels and a little bolder line where hatches are, it gives them more depth. Your not going deeper, just broader, remember, primer thickness is all you have to work with. I should add at this time, you should have made a test pannel finished the same way the plane is preped so you have something to test on and get a feel for it

Making the rivet guide. Useing the styrene ( sheets are 2-8"X10" and are .030" thick ) cut a strip 3/4" wide and lightly score a line down the middle, 3/8" to center ( your going to need a drill press for next step) Make a jig of sorts to slide the strip down and drill uniform holes the length of strip just off center of scribed mark. When you drill first hole draw a line 3/16-1/4" from center hole in guide/jig and center each drilled hole on that mark all the way down for uniform holes. If center mark is dead on just turn strip around, not over and drill other side useing same mark for perfect aligned rivets. 3/32" bit for 1/4 scale and 5/64" for 1/5 scale. This is Page one See page two.

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Page two:

Have to start over because I didn't hit post reply, "oh well"'.

Making rivet tools: Start with a 1/16" brass tube about 2 1/2" long, it will make scale rivets for 1/5 and 1/4 planes. For 1/5 scale the inside diameter will be used. Make sure the end of tube is square and taper the outside about 3/32 long until it reaches the inside diamenter. Use a fine grinding wheel and go slow turning between thumb and forfinger There is probably a burr inside the end of tube, remove it with a Dremel tungston carbide cutter #9909, It can also be used to enlarge cutting size. keep cutting edge sharp for best results. The rivet guide addressed on page one will be drilled with a 1/16" drill bit. The Dremel cutter can be used to de-bur it. I used a Dremel drill press to drill mine and it turned out very nice. I also slid a 1/16" x 1" tube over Cutter and put a drop of CA thin on it to keep it from sliding. Cutter for 1/4 scale is done in the same way but chamfering inside of tube and a guide with 3/32" holes.

Making the rivets: Lay out pannel lines and scribe them, use a thin ruler. cork or contact cement backed to prevent sliding around, you don't want a slip at this stage. Now rivets: with guide you made align center scribe on pannel line and tape or hold firm and insert tool in a hole and turn tool between thumb and for finger foward and back. Heres where the test pannel comes into play, to help determine the pressure needed to cut the rivet. Remember, you only have the thickness of primer to work with. A faint rivet will show up better than you think. Do all 10 inches and move guide sligning last hole. If it's a big plane plan on spending some time and support the parts so they don't rock or move around. Zouse? fasteners are done the same way useing 1/8" tube.

The pictures don't look as good as the test piece, some of what you'll see in them is the results of poor preping resulting in poor adhesion of primer in places and the center of rivet lifting out because of it. I never went to the trouble to prep it right because it was just a test piece, well I won't make that mistake on the plane. My plane is a TF gold edition 1/5 scale P-51D kit built. Plane is built but it will probably take longer to detail and finish than it did to build. Now for some picts..

Don't know why pictures did'nt show? Try again. For some reason picture post can't be found so it's not up loading them. Something wrong here,never had problem before. I'll try again in the morning.

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

I'll try the pictures again. SO where the H- are picts?. "Oh yes"'

The pictures don't do justice to how they really look but will give you an idea what can be done scribing details. There are tools used, and the paint for this test is Dupli-Color from spray can. I sprayed full wet coats on half of test and 3 fogged coats on other half and it never made any difference to appearance of detail. You can see the size difference of rivets useing the two different cut tube scribes. the sharper the tubes the better they look. I'll fine tune my scribes to get better pannel lines, this is just a test to see what works best. The hinge really looks like a hinge, I was impressed with how real it looked, the fine cut lines are 2/32" apart with segmented cuts every 5/16". Most hatches that open have hinges like gun and ammo bays.

Styrene sheets are easy to cut with razor sharp blades and drills and make great patterns to scribe with, you can go as far as you want detailing your plane. When it's all done don't forget to wipe it down with prep-sol to remove dust and finger prints prior to paint, and keep your hands clean!.[&o]

I'll check back from time to time and answer questions. My question is, when you can do this, why would you want to burn them? Leroy[8D]

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

<span style="font-size: small">Leroy,


That system certainly seems to give very nice results. I have considered using the scribe several times. In fact,Ihave used it to add a line where Ihad forgotten the 1/64 tape. My only problem with that was either having the guide slip or my tool didn't follow the guide.l AS for your rivits, I'm not sure just using pressure with your cutting tools would do the job on an epoxy primer, which is all I use since I'm still using glow engines.

If you want to really make you work stand out, give this a try. Go to an artist supply store and get some of the small tubes of acrilic paint they use. It's water based and cheap. For a silver plane, I'd use a dark grey. Other colors just need some contrast. A light grey would probably work best on the reds and blues in the stars and black numbers. Put a dab on a piece of plastic or vinyl and thin it slightly with water. Smear it all over the area you want to weather and let it dry. Then using a dampened towel or paper towel, wipe it off in the direction of the airflow. Some of it will remain in the rivits and panel lines and leave light streaks. Since it is water soluable, you can remove as little or as much as you want.

Try that on your test panel.

Dash</span>

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Hi Dash, thanks for reply. Yea, I don't know how this would work on epoxy. it's pretty hard stuff. I use laquer for two reasons, 1 it's the lightest of all paints and 2 you can top coat it with most any paint, well now 3 you can scribe it and get a very realistic look and thats what I want. You might try laquer some time and you won't go back to epoxy, unless your going to do flight-metal over it, thats what they call for. One thing I found out is how fine a scribe showes up, different colors will show differently but the scribe still comes through. Aerosol sprays are the best paints because they are so light and fine whereas heavyer bodied paints will have a more filling effect on fine details and will require a bolder scribe. When I started out I was'nt sure how much painting would effect the scribes so I used both light and heavy pressure cutting scribes and was surprised and pleased at the outcome. Now it's a case of practice makes perfect.

First pictures I posted I wasnt happy with, they were taken under shop lights so I took another set out side in natural light, shade and sun,"wow" what a difference. Silver is very reflective and details really show up. Like I said this is a test piece just to see how it comes out and now I'm sure I can do a uniform job on the plane. I'm starting to get a little excited about finishing this bird, it's been a long time coming. Hand and shoulder surgery has held this up for nearly two years but all is well now,"thank God".:) Leroy

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

I carried the rivets a little further to include Ultra coat and Flite Metal, results speak for them selves, Any body do this stuff any more? [:o] Leroy

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Of course there are those of us doing this stuff still!!:D

I am quite intrigued with your method and am seriously considering using it on my current CMP Zero bash. I think I'll do the horz stabs and see how I like as compared to my usual chart tape panels.

Thanks for the time you spent posting the comprehensive instruction guide and the pics of the results in various finishes.

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Well it's been 2 mo. now and there really don't seam to be much intrest in doing this kind of detail much any more. I thought it might inspire some to try it because it's so easy to do and you don't have to buy expensive tools to do it. Chart tape can be a pain at times just getting the adhesive off after pulling the tape and burning rivets is a challenge also. Anyway I'm into the detail of the mustang full bore now and it's looking impressive to say the least.:)

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Thanks Leroy, for the effort you put into this tutorial. I will try this method on my next project.

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

56chevy, your going to love the results if you decide to do this.

The rivets above are made with a 1/16" brass tube sharpened on the inside and when turned in the inside bevel actually raises it a tiny amount. My rivets are not harsh, they are suttle and they will show up without jumping off the surface, other words they look more real than many others I've seen. Perfect for the all out scale guys doing flush rivets. Raised ones are a different matter. One other thing, keep the cutter sharp and make sure the primer coats are stuck to each other to prevent lifting of the centers. the guide holes are also 1/16" and I used the the Dremmel cutter to chamfer one side, it helps to guide the tool into it. I just finished the wing and was surprised (pleased) at how fast it went. Once you get a rythem going they move right along. I'm guessing around 13.000 rivets before its all done, I'll be damned if I'll do all of them, after all it's only a sport scale mustang. It's looking good!:D Leroy

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

I starting a build of a 20% Zlin 526. I'm inspired by your methods. I was not going to do any rivets or panel lines but may give it a go now. I have to look to see if the Zlin used flush or raised rivets??????


Ken

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Good for you Ken, this is producing the coolest looking detail I hav ever seen. Pannel lines look nice, even by themselves and scribed as I have layed out look better than anything chart tape can produce and with a lot less hassel.
I have played around with raised rivets also and they are also easy to do if it somes to that. I put a CA applicator tip on the nose of a small bottle of elmers or other aliphatic resin glue and make perfect sized raised rivets. No matter what
you decide to do rivet wise, the plane will be a stand out.

I have more info on the prepping that will be helpful should you or others like to do this. Personally I'd like to see more fellas building and doing this this kind of finishing work simply because it sets you apart from everybody else and there is a certain amount of pride involved.
I say go for it, in the end you'll be glad you did. Good luck:) Leroy

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

If your panel line method is superior to chart pak masking, why isn't everybody doing it ?

I tried scribing panel lines, 20 years ago. I didn't care for it.

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Tom,

Would you pleas give us/me the quick and dirty of the cart pak masking you use method. I've never done any real serious scale building. Just the "stand way off scale":D of years past.

Ken

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Tom, scribing is a new to you way of detailing as well as a lot of other guys. I have never said it's the only way to get quality lines until I spent over 7 mo. testing and perfecting scribing. I also did the chart tape primer method and found adhesive left after the tape was pulled along with tiny chips along the whole line. Look at the pictures I posted, you will not find any of that in my lines, they are crisp and only .012" wide. I don't care who you are or how long you have been doing this the old fashion way YOU will never produce the quality lines I scribe WITH tape. I can say about the same thing with my flush rivets. This method is worthy of top gun and pro scale builders. Beauty of it is, anyone can learn to do it, even someone who knows it all like you, so until you tried it you really don't have anything to say about it, but being who you are you probably will anyway

When my mustang is finished (and that won't be long) I 'm not going to have just another mustang, it will be a show piece with a knock out scribed detail finish.:D Leroy

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

I was just asking why your method was superior, as you said in post #12.

I tried scribing, and didn't care for it. If it works for you, go for it. There's nothing wrong with the method. I just don't feel that it's "the coolest looking detail that I hav (e) ever seen."

Ken, I plot out my panel line with pencil. I then lay down the .015 tape. http://www.injectorall.com/draftingtapes.htm I spray primer over the tape, usually 2-3 coats. The tape is removed when the primer gets "tacky." By removing the tape then, no glue adhesive is left behind.

Leroy, I like your rivet method. It does a nice job on flush rivets.

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

"Oh Tom", of course you havent seen scribed lines but you heve seen some scratched lines more than likely. You see a scribe is a cut in line with a special made tool for that purpose, it's not some pointed thing draged along chipping a line as it goes. Tom I read threads with some of your posts in them and one of your most famous sayings is " I tried it but I don't like it, or I do it this way with good results but never show us the results". Kinda makes a guy wonder about credability. Your in a class of your own and I'm in a class of my own, difference is I'm not afraid to show my work and I never comment about things I don't know or havent done.

Have a good day all, Leroy

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

This will be my last pictures of scribed details, fuse. is finished and it's time to paint. I'll do a thread on finishing after it's painted then the results will really show. Pictures just don't show as well as they do to the naked eye. Leroy

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

I've been following your thread with great interest......I like to do detail work too....I'm more of a builder than flier.

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Sebo I plan on doing a painting and finishing thread in the not too distant future, I'm not sure where to put it and with all the picture posting problems and time outs' server problems I've had it could turn out to be a pain in the butt. It will be at RCG for sure they don't have problems there.

Stay tuned I'll let viewers know where to see it come together. Leroy

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

I'll be looking for it.
I don't have problems posting on RCU.
I have a Lancair build thread going and I have completed a Bud Nosen Aeronca build thread too.
Never have had any problems.
I never quick post....I always reply....maybe that's the secret of it all.
Ron

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Ok Ron, maybe you can help if you know if Hi Def. pictures over load the server if you try to post more than 2. My camera is a 12.1 mega pixle and I can't resize. Pictures from my 3.1 camera don't cause many problems but I don't use it that much any more.

Thanks, Leroy

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Sorry, I'm no help to you there...
Have you tried puting 2 pics on then coming back and edit the post puting adding 2 more pics to the one that already has two on it?
My camera is a cheap one.. probably doesn't have the pixels you have. I don't think I am HI DEF.
I'm just fat, dumb and happy that it works!

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Right around the end of the month, May, I will start a thread called An Awsum Finish in Fuel Warbirds at RCG, it will be about painting and finishing my plane. I may try to do the same thing on RCU, but if there are problems like so many have and I have had I will scrap it.

Lerpy

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

OK, one more of finished wing rivets and lines, every thing turned out great, Leroy

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Leroy, i really like the outcome of your technique and work. I think i will give this a go on my A10 i am finishing up at the moment.
For FYI, the base is Liquid Sheeting II, supplied by Wowplanes.com an then several coats of primer applied for a test flight/maiden
stage at this time. I do plan on finishing out this plane this winter when i cant fly it so riverts and panel lines will really set it apart
from a plain jane paint finish. Please post any other pics you have as to final finish. This is 1/10 scale so i need to scale down the
tubing sizes and may do the cam lock and dzus fasteners only.
My additional idea is to "highlight" or preshade the panel lines like modelers do on the plastics so that will bring out and highlight the
panel lines for a weathering effect. I sprayed with gray primer and then will apply a coat of white primer to help with the preshading.
Your thoughts on the preshading idea???

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

One thing to keep in mind with the P-51 is that the rivets on the wings were filled and the wings were painted even on natural aluminum schemes. So unless it was a very weathered or repaired (or inaccurately restored like the P-51B, Macon Belle), the rivets were not visible on the wings. Screwheads, however were visible. Afterall, a screwhead does not work very well if they are filled.;)
BTW, I've had pretty good results with the chart tape process. Also, scribing does not work when replicating overlapping joints. But I have to say, Leroy, that's the best scribing job I've seen.

Scott

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

The panel lines and rivets look fantastic. Thanks for posting.



Carl

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

In respect to filled and painted rivets and lines, that is the way they were done during the war years. Today alot of these planes have been restored and polished and there is no filled rivets on any part of the plane thus they show up. anexample is Crazy Horse and Cripes Amighty 3rd.
that my plane finish is done in. It's a beautiful plane done in automotive base/clear acrylic urthane that has been sanded to 3000 grit and buffed and in the polish stage at this time useing the same compound. It's so shiney that to see the rivets and lines you have to follow a robbon of light along any part of it to see them, much the same on the real plane.Leroy

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Sam the one thing you will have the biggest problem with is size of rivets on 1/10 scale, dimples will produce the same effect on that size plane so test that out on some scrap lay up. Rivets on my plane are turned in with a 1/16" brass tube sharpened on inside
and even they are a tad big for 1/5 scale, tube should have been sharpened on out side but did not produce the propper look when finished, as it turned out, my rivets really turn some heads and they say how'd you do that, I say one at a time. Alot goes into doing this
but the results speek for themselves. No one in my aera has anything finished like this.


As far as shading lines goes ? well it is up to the builder and what he likes but no war bird dirty or not looked like these shaded lines models today. Just do it your way and don't worry about what others think, actually I"ve seen some that don't look bad at all, just keep your shaded lines faint and enjoy it when finished. Leroy

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

I pre-shaded my last two projects and am happy enough with the results that I will continue to use the process in the future. Unfortunately the results are very subtle and are almost impossible to see in photos, at least photos taken with my relatively inexpensive equipment. The technique is much better suited to schemes that are predominatley one color in my opinion although it can work with any paint job. Camo and other multiple color schemes may require more work though. On my Harvard the pre-shading works very nicely on the yellow undersides while not quite as well on the camoflauged top sides. I shot the entire upper surfaces with brown first and then applied the green over the top of that. In those cases the pre-shading has two layers of paint over it which, of course, hides more of the effect. Better to have either pre-shaded again over the top of the brown where the green was to go or, better yet, not to have overlapped the colors. Same deal when painting the markings on. If you want the shading to come through the markings you will need to apply it again over the base color prior to spraying the marking itself.

On my Hellcat the whole process was simplified because of the overall single base color. Once again it is very hard to detect in pictures but it is apparent in person, particularly when the model is outside in natural light. Give it a try and I think you will be pleased.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...ps94b12b6f.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...ps932d8e38.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...AN/WALKWAY.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...psffb845a6.jpg

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Chad as usual you do some remarkable things with your planes and finishes and we all could learn plenty from you. I have to date not tried your method for shading but find it intresting enough to consider on a P-47 which I'm concidering as my next build. Truth is I don't know exactly how it's done. After all the work and time I put into the mustang and I'm not sorry for it I got to admit an easier way shurly is appealing at my age. I do watch for your posts and as always there is something to learn or at least concider, I do like your building style;) Leroy

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Thanks for the kind words Leroy, much appreciated. Looking at your fantastic Mustang build I'm not sure there is much you're going to learn from me but I'll keep throwing ideas out there anyway! Regarding pre-shading I wrote an article about painting my Harvard which appeared in a British scale magazine last year. I briefly discuss my pre-shading technique in the article and would be glad to email you a copy of it if you're interested. I have not perfected the process by any means but I might be able to stimulate you're thinking on the subject. I picked up the idea from the plastic model guys, some of whom make pre-shading and post-shading into an art form. (As well as many other weathering techniques.) My favorite plastic model hang out is called Hyperscale, www.hyperscale.com. Worth a look around if you have some spare time.

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Please, don't anyone give up on this thread.....I am following it.....I tried the tape and spraying 3 coats of primer....added a lot of weight.
Just sanded it down to the bare bones again and will attempt scribing...

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

I'm not sure what your exact procedure was sebo but doing the tape/primer method should add almost zero weight. First, you only need to spray the primer over the tapes and not the entire surface of the model. Then you sand away 99% of the primer leaving only minimal build up along the edges of the tapes. I sand until the tape is completely revealed so that it can be removed clean and without chipping the primer. You do not need to build up an excessive amount of primer and what may seem like a very faint panel line in the primer will in fact show up quite well even under three or four coats of paint. Just my .02 cents of course.

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

I am using white automotive paint so I used white primer over the entire area then I put the tape on and primed over it.
Pulled the tape off and shop the automotive paint over it. Actually shot 2 coats of white paint over the primer. Looked pretty but heavy as all getout....Plus, I usually build a light aircraft.
Don't know what happened this time. Have any ideas? I have now sanded down to the glass. Ready to mask of and try again.
What did I do wong?

Loaded pictures...was hoping you could see the panel lines.

I'll take a couple of pictures of the wing and add them to the post........I haven't sanded them down yet..


Here they are.

Since I sanded the panel lines off and couldn't find the old plastic plane I had, I was compelled to order another one tonight.........Beware, Plastic models of the same kindfrom the same manufacturer can run anywhere from $12.95 to $34.95...shop wisely........plus the more you pay for the kit the more they charge you for shipping......doesn't make sense.

Plastic models are known to have the more accurate panel lines......I read that somewhere.

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Sebo what Chad said is true if you are going with the chart tape and his 2 cents is really worth several dollars. Also Tom Crumb said if you sand and pull tape on the green side ( primer not fully cured ) it does'nt chip as much and adhesive comes off better also, I would take his word on that as he does alot of it. Nice plane you have there Sebo, hope you get the buggs out of the finish.

Those lines and rivets will show up fine, they don't have to be bold to look good. White does'nt show them as well as darker colores but you will still see them when reflective light hits them. Much the same as the details on my mustang. Leroy

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Chad thanks for your kind words as well, but your wrong, "ok", your half wrong, yes the mustang is a beauty and I learned plenty from it, but, you still have about 30 yr's or so and God knows how many planes built over me, so there is still plenty to learn here. I have always been greatful to so many that provided so much info. over the past 6 years when I started the mustang. I knew I could build it but there is much to know about anything you build and you should get that info. before you even start the build. You probably do the same thing and I call it building smart.
I don't know squat about plastic models except they are feally cool and scale, I think ? Thanks for the web site I'll go back there and see if I can get shading guide lines and play around with that some. Leroy

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Thanks, guys..............I'm taking everything to heart. I can hardly believe the weight I have sanded off the back end of that plane.....waiting for the plastic one to arrive to get lines correct.
Not going to put rivets on it this time....very time consuming.........I wanna fly it.

Again thanks...........keep the good stuff coming.

RE: Easy lines & rivets
 

Here is the effect im going to shoot for on my A10 with applying the panel preshading. This is on a large Mibo turbine A-10 and i think roughly 1/6 scale. Now visualize this at 1/10, no rivets, just the painted highlights and this is my plan. The scheme i will do is the Blacksnakes, 163rd FS of the Indiana ANG in Ft. Wayne as seen in the next pic. I already have stencils and markings done by GetStencils.com and i am eager to start the finishing so stay tuned. The work up above on the F6 and Harvard is outstanding. Just what im looking for in mine.