Seeking a Douglas A-26 Invader Builder
09-07-2004, 01:48 PM
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RE: Seeking a Douglas A-26 Invader Builder
Well, if Ladyliberty wants to get mad and take his ball and bat and go play elsewhere, so be it. His last post sums up what he thinks of us guys who "play" with "toy" airplanes. As to the $300 airplane ride, a simple google search will get you the following: approximately 45 minute flight for an average of $150 in a Stearman, $200 to $600 in a T-6, on up to $2000+ in a Spitfire. Now allowing for the appetite of two R-2800s an A-26 might be slightly more expensive, so let's assume he's out $1000 for the offered ride. What does he want in return?
His requests for the level of scale detailing and finish quality immediately put the project out of the realm of the average modeller, and square in the camp of the expert builder. The subject itself is well beyond the skill level of all but the best. Most expert/contest quality builders do what they do for pleasure, not for money. But let's be real, we will do it for ourselves, not for others. If we do it for others, our time becomes money, unless it's for a good cause. I would have no problem donating a finished model to a museum (in fact, involved in such a project as we speak). Ladyliberty indicated no such noble intentions. He's asking for hundreds to perhaps thousands of hours of a level of craftsmanship available from only a few percent of us. Is the exchange worth it? The answer seems to be no. You notice that I haven't mentioned the material costs - I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he is not familiar with the costs associated with giant scale models, but given his association with full scale airplanes, he should know that nothing that flies is cheap.
Ladyliberty does not mention a current FAA NPRM (Notice of Proposed Rulemaking) No.# 4521, which seeks to ban joyrides in warbirds. If this rule goes into effect, his offer is not valid unless he's willing to violate the Federal Aviation Regulations. So anyone taking his offer may well end up with nothing in the end. On the other hand, the rule may not pass, but that's a pretty shaky cloud to be working under.
He's mad that we acted negatively towards the original offer. Well, we had every right to be! The original offer was (whether intended to be or not) demanding, condescending, and rude. That's what set everybody off, not that it was unfair in exchange. He has made full scale pilots look bad to the rc community by his attitude. Do I know both sides of the argument? I think so: ATP, 10,000+ flight time, B757/767 and Learjet type ratings, 7000+ PIC jet, way to many years with the airlines. Also former rc kit manufacturer and current designer for a highly respected scale kit manufacturer.
I'm sure he wouldn't like too much my offer of a ride in "my" 757 (on the jumpseat, of course!) in exchange for his airplane.
His requests for the level of scale detailing and finish quality immediately put the project out of the realm of the average modeller, and square in the camp of the expert builder. The subject itself is well beyond the skill level of all but the best. Most expert/contest quality builders do what they do for pleasure, not for money. But let's be real, we will do it for ourselves, not for others. If we do it for others, our time becomes money, unless it's for a good cause. I would have no problem donating a finished model to a museum (in fact, involved in such a project as we speak). Ladyliberty indicated no such noble intentions. He's asking for hundreds to perhaps thousands of hours of a level of craftsmanship available from only a few percent of us. Is the exchange worth it? The answer seems to be no. You notice that I haven't mentioned the material costs - I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he is not familiar with the costs associated with giant scale models, but given his association with full scale airplanes, he should know that nothing that flies is cheap.
Ladyliberty does not mention a current FAA NPRM (Notice of Proposed Rulemaking) No.# 4521, which seeks to ban joyrides in warbirds. If this rule goes into effect, his offer is not valid unless he's willing to violate the Federal Aviation Regulations. So anyone taking his offer may well end up with nothing in the end. On the other hand, the rule may not pass, but that's a pretty shaky cloud to be working under.
He's mad that we acted negatively towards the original offer. Well, we had every right to be! The original offer was (whether intended to be or not) demanding, condescending, and rude. That's what set everybody off, not that it was unfair in exchange. He has made full scale pilots look bad to the rc community by his attitude. Do I know both sides of the argument? I think so: ATP, 10,000+ flight time, B757/767 and Learjet type ratings, 7000+ PIC jet, way to many years with the airlines. Also former rc kit manufacturer and current designer for a highly respected scale kit manufacturer.
I'm sure he wouldn't like too much my offer of a ride in "my" 757 (on the jumpseat, of course!) in exchange for his airplane.
09-07-2004, 02:09 PM
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RE: Seeking a Douglas A-26 Invader Builder
B757......sadly ....I wasn't aware of the NPRM#4521.......FAA is getting way out of line..........I went to school out in Seattle for 757/767....spent approx 8-9 hrs in both 757 Sim and 767 Sim.......really enjoyed both the flying and education that came with it..............good old days are getting to be that...........now....just to get in Sim...takes ....well....you know the deal.........I guess if its classified as "Pilot Training"..........maybe we can still enjoy thrills of aviation history......Got to fly an AT-6 and had a blast with it...........not sure what the Feds are thinking.........BTW....B757 best narrow body aircraft out there.........I....work now for US Airways........hopefully get to keep working........@ same pay as "StarBucks " employees.......sorry....thats another story.........Hopefully.....Feds let cool heads prevail and keep solid "Airworthy" historical planes do what they do best......reach for the skies above...........Bill.......
09-07-2004, 02:29 PM
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RE: Seeking a Douglas A-26 Invader Builder
I know all the organizations that offer rides in their warbirds are actively fighting this reg - just like all the other regs, they are written in blood. a bad accident probably prompted the NPRM, and if nothing else, you'll probably see more regs governing these rides. A total ban would be bad, but some regulation would be a good thing - I had a friend killed in the CAF B-26 (Marauder) crash in Midland in '96. He was just riding along.
You're right, the '57 is the queen of the skies. Probably the first time that a manufacturer figured out that an airplane flies better if you put bigger motors on it - probably learned from us r/c'ers! It's still the only airplane I know of that you can load up to max gross weight on a 100 degree day and still use reduced thrust takeoff power!
Good luck at USAirways - I have been and am now on the receiving end of downsizing, layoffs, and defunct airlines. It's not pretty, and it's not going to get better until a healthy dose of common sense is applied to all aspects of the industry, but that's a different story!
You're right, the '57 is the queen of the skies. Probably the first time that a manufacturer figured out that an airplane flies better if you put bigger motors on it - probably learned from us r/c'ers! It's still the only airplane I know of that you can load up to max gross weight on a 100 degree day and still use reduced thrust takeoff power!
Good luck at USAirways - I have been and am now on the receiving end of downsizing, layoffs, and defunct airlines. It's not pretty, and it's not going to get better until a healthy dose of common sense is applied to all aspects of the industry, but that's a different story!
09-07-2004, 03:21 PM
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RE: Seeking a Douglas A-26 Invader Builder
Its not that I want to take my ball and play on another field 757, because I want this model built and will get it built. Its just I can't believe people are so critical of this when they have not even discussed with me what it would take to put this together, and then laid out the cost and asked what I might be willing to cover, or what they would require me to cover in the project. They simply say your crazy and what i'm offering is nothing and they don't even have a real clue about what I would supply. Everyone seems to skip over the part where I said I would be willing to discuss supplying some stuff, and jump right to the its not worth a ride to build a model, and I am not offering anything. Even the moderator told everyone if you don't have something good to say don't say anything, and that was before it got bad.
Maybe my first post was not written well enough or did not contain enough information, and that's my fault, but I don't even know what the options are for the model so its impossible for me to lay out every detail in a way that makes everyone happy. So I put a basic post in asking if anyone would be willing to build a quality model in exchange for a ride in a real A-26, asking for someone to contact me to discuss the project. From that I was really expecting some kind of a discussion that would lead us down a path of laying out the scope of the project to discuss options and costs and finally discussing the terms of the deal.
I have no disrespect for RC people, they are way better craftsman than I will ever be, which is why I was looking for some one else to do the job. But the RC'ers in here don't seem to want to negotiate a deal and would rather try to beat up someone for trying to get help building a reproduction of an airplane he flies, without finding any details other than some poorly written incomplete post. If that's what I have to put up with then your right I will take my ball and bat somewhere else.
On your comment about a rule doing away with joy rides in warbirds it will not effect us in any way because we don't give "joy rides", and we don't sell rides either. Any ride we would give would not be under this ruling even if it were passed.
I am a corporate pilot and not in the airlines so I have never yet had the chance to fly the 757 sim, but I have flown the Scarebus A300, and the MD-11 sims in the last year. Our other pilot on the A-26 flew the 75/76 for about 15 years and is now in the A300. He hates it, would really like to get back into a Boeing but can't hold the lines of the one's he wants so he's in Airbus hell for awhile it seems. He said the 75 is the best big airplane he has ever flown.
Now for your questions from your post warbirdz. I do not know what my options are for this model. I said in my original post there was a picture of the basic airplane I wanted on rcwarbirds. That is about all I can tell you I want as I am not an RC person. Thats why I keep harping on I wanted someone to discuss this with me so I could understand the options, cost, and see if we could agree to some deal. What size's are available, and better yet what as a builder would you recommend I choose??
Maybe my first post was not written well enough or did not contain enough information, and that's my fault, but I don't even know what the options are for the model so its impossible for me to lay out every detail in a way that makes everyone happy. So I put a basic post in asking if anyone would be willing to build a quality model in exchange for a ride in a real A-26, asking for someone to contact me to discuss the project. From that I was really expecting some kind of a discussion that would lead us down a path of laying out the scope of the project to discuss options and costs and finally discussing the terms of the deal.
I have no disrespect for RC people, they are way better craftsman than I will ever be, which is why I was looking for some one else to do the job. But the RC'ers in here don't seem to want to negotiate a deal and would rather try to beat up someone for trying to get help building a reproduction of an airplane he flies, without finding any details other than some poorly written incomplete post. If that's what I have to put up with then your right I will take my ball and bat somewhere else.
On your comment about a rule doing away with joy rides in warbirds it will not effect us in any way because we don't give "joy rides", and we don't sell rides either. Any ride we would give would not be under this ruling even if it were passed.
I am a corporate pilot and not in the airlines so I have never yet had the chance to fly the 757 sim, but I have flown the Scarebus A300, and the MD-11 sims in the last year. Our other pilot on the A-26 flew the 75/76 for about 15 years and is now in the A300. He hates it, would really like to get back into a Boeing but can't hold the lines of the one's he wants so he's in Airbus hell for awhile it seems. He said the 75 is the best big airplane he has ever flown.
Now for your questions from your post warbirdz. I do not know what my options are for this model. I said in my original post there was a picture of the basic airplane I wanted on rcwarbirds. That is about all I can tell you I want as I am not an RC person. Thats why I keep harping on I wanted someone to discuss this with me so I could understand the options, cost, and see if we could agree to some deal. What size's are available, and better yet what as a builder would you recommend I choose??
09-07-2004, 03:42 PM
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RE: Seeking a Douglas A-26 Invader Builder
Doug......Had you said in the very first post....."I am not an RC person"....as you just mentioned in your last post........all would've been alot different........I took on the assumption you were an RC person.......and what followed "appeared" as though thats what you were............now that you've clarified yourself.......legitimate costs can be discussed..........size=cost.....bigger costs more.........I think there are A-26 plans in the 90" range.....and models up to 120" range.......so you must decide on what you want......before any costs can discussed............ I'm only familiar with Don Smith @ 103" and Cactus Aviation @ 120"...............Bill.........
09-07-2004, 04:34 PM
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RE: Seeking a Douglas A-26 Invader Builder
LL:
You already have an extremely good offer. Jump on the one for $3500 - so long as it's structurally sound you will not beat the price. Going new just the pair of G-62 engines will take the first thousand dollars.
Since you want it to be a miniature of the plane you have it does not matter if the current appearance is a bit ratty, you will have to repaint anyway.
If the entire cockpit and visible interior has to be installed you are still money ahead.
Starting with the plane at this price you will most likely finish about 50% of the price of new construction.
At least investigate it, you may well find it to be your best option.
Bill.
You already have an extremely good offer. Jump on the one for $3500 - so long as it's structurally sound you will not beat the price. Going new just the pair of G-62 engines will take the first thousand dollars.
Since you want it to be a miniature of the plane you have it does not matter if the current appearance is a bit ratty, you will have to repaint anyway.
If the entire cockpit and visible interior has to be installed you are still money ahead.
Starting with the plane at this price you will most likely finish about 50% of the price of new construction.
At least investigate it, you may well find it to be your best option.
Bill.
09-11-2004, 04:33 PM
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RE: Seeking a Douglas A-26 Invader Builder
Just a little clarification
The tax item was related to Robby and it was only a response to Barter (which he brought to the discussion) and tax, when you purchase something - a Kit the Hobby shop sell you he collets a tax. The IRS considers Barter a Taxable income, a plane ride would be a exchanged item - a bartered item and taxable. Same thing with cost when you purchase a new car and its taxed, and taxed when you resell it each and every time to as many people as purchase it. ( this is probably unfair )
Ergo material and parts are taxed---yes if the Government has its way the items sold through the internet will be taxed .......its just a matter of when ( all likely hood in about 2 years).
What would a kit cuter or laser kit cutter charge for a this kit we are discussing, without added items such as cowls, etc. Last quote I got from Precession was 425.00 for a 72 inch biplane. plus shipping! What is his time valued at?.............10.00 per hr. or a plane ride????
Labor...........
if I work at Burger King for 7.50 per hr. x 600 hrs what does that equal, if I work at a Factory and make 25.00 per hour x 600 hr. what does that equal ( plus benefits 10.00 more per hr.- hospitalization etc.) Or I am the CEO at 125000 per year salary it still is divisible by 600 hrs. that it will take to complete a project.
The one thing that keeps getting in the way of my hobby is I still have to eat and feed my family no matter how much social fee time I give up or give away.
What is value and how we interpret it is all self evident. Some one who has cancer has a different prospective about the value of time, labor and money.
The time I spend with my kids, dog, wife, myself, is expensive to the outside world on a per hr. bases, what price tag would you put on your time that God has given you on this earth.
You may quote me from an earlier post " I concur as though there is more here than meets the eye ( Human nature - DNA ) .... as I had an idea what and where this discussion would go.......................
Just what's left of my two cents ................must get back to the kids spent to much time here.......................
Regards
Bentbalsa
Don't read below here______________________________________________ ______________
We can never see past the choices we have already made
Choice is a illusion created by those with power for those without
What happened, happened and couldn't of happened any other way
Fundamentally Flawed
People look but don't see
People listen but don't hear
People invest in the stock market and don't sell when they are suppose to.--- What is your 401K worth now.
It's al about human nature interpretation, " war what is it good for- absolutely nothen " -- Was a song years back. In relation to who and what value do we, you or the government places on it .
__________________________________________________ ____________________________
The tax item was related to Robby and it was only a response to Barter (which he brought to the discussion) and tax, when you purchase something - a Kit the Hobby shop sell you he collets a tax. The IRS considers Barter a Taxable income, a plane ride would be a exchanged item - a bartered item and taxable. Same thing with cost when you purchase a new car and its taxed, and taxed when you resell it each and every time to as many people as purchase it. ( this is probably unfair )
Ergo material and parts are taxed---yes if the Government has its way the items sold through the internet will be taxed .......its just a matter of when ( all likely hood in about 2 years).
What would a kit cuter or laser kit cutter charge for a this kit we are discussing, without added items such as cowls, etc. Last quote I got from Precession was 425.00 for a 72 inch biplane. plus shipping! What is his time valued at?.............10.00 per hr. or a plane ride????
Labor...........
if I work at Burger King for 7.50 per hr. x 600 hrs what does that equal, if I work at a Factory and make 25.00 per hour x 600 hr. what does that equal ( plus benefits 10.00 more per hr.- hospitalization etc.) Or I am the CEO at 125000 per year salary it still is divisible by 600 hrs. that it will take to complete a project.
The one thing that keeps getting in the way of my hobby is I still have to eat and feed my family no matter how much social fee time I give up or give away.
What is value and how we interpret it is all self evident. Some one who has cancer has a different prospective about the value of time, labor and money.
The time I spend with my kids, dog, wife, myself, is expensive to the outside world on a per hr. bases, what price tag would you put on your time that God has given you on this earth.
You may quote me from an earlier post " I concur as though there is more here than meets the eye ( Human nature - DNA ) .... as I had an idea what and where this discussion would go.......................
Just what's left of my two cents ................must get back to the kids spent to much time here.......................
Regards
Bentbalsa
Don't read below here______________________________________________ ______________
We can never see past the choices we have already made
Choice is a illusion created by those with power for those without
What happened, happened and couldn't of happened any other way
Fundamentally Flawed
People look but don't see
People listen but don't hear
People invest in the stock market and don't sell when they are suppose to.--- What is your 401K worth now.
It's al about human nature interpretation, " war what is it good for- absolutely nothen " -- Was a song years back. In relation to who and what value do we, you or the government places on it .
__________________________________________________ ____________________________
09-12-2004, 10:36 PM
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RE: Seeking a Douglas A-26 Invader Builder
Happen to have 5 A-126 invader fuselages and nacelles in the shop. 170" span at 1/5 scale. One of them is almost flyable. Plenty of engines and retracts also.
09-15-2004, 08:36 PM
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RE: Seeking a Douglas A-26 Invader Builder
LADYLIBERTY:
I verified with the OWNER of the A-26 Invader that he is willing to sell you an A-26 Invader for a killer deal....Best Deal BARNONE!!
I will post pics of the GOrgeous craft soon with a full listing of equipment and original cost to construct not including time blood sweat and tears...You will be astonished!!!!!!!! Anyone else interested in purchasing it will be very....well off.....Stay tuned!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 13 ft A-26 Coming sooooooooon
I verified with the OWNER of the A-26 Invader that he is willing to sell you an A-26 Invader for a killer deal....Best Deal BARNONE!!
I will post pics of the GOrgeous craft soon with a full listing of equipment and original cost to construct not including time blood sweat and tears...You will be astonished!!!!!!!! Anyone else interested in purchasing it will be very....well off.....Stay tuned!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 13 ft A-26 Coming sooooooooon
