Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
03-16-2007, 10:33 AM
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Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
Twin-Sync Installation and Testing
It is sometimes written, “He who dies with the most toys-Wins!!”. Twin-sanity hit me many years ago and I still am in the terminal stages…Can’t get enough. I often get on my soapbox to warn others not to do twins as four times the problems. No one listens and the Manufacturers are coming out with more each week. Reliability has always been the danger with multi-engine planes. I have long been an advocate of gyros for rudders and ailerons to delay the unexpected snap roll that and engine out can cause, particularly in planes such as the P-38.
Along comes a new product by Bill Wike called the Twin-Sync. Like most of us “Seasoned” modelers, we are skeptical of new fangled electronics.
Managed to get my hands on this new marvel to try it out. (Back to the part of never having too many toys).
Now, I am game to try this new gadget out, but not really too interested in trying on a scale P-38 and deliberately killing an engine in flight…………Even with two gyros!!
(I will answer to Wuss, thank you very much!)
One of my “Creations” was taking two Long John’s and making a quasi P-82 twin fuse Long John. Lots of fun, easy to fly, and VERY STABLE in engine out. In fact it will take off and loop on one engine. (Don’t try this at home kids!!)
While I think it is very aerobatic, given my 3D skills, real three D pilots, of the so called Pro Bro league found it lacking. (What do they know? They fly single engine models that need little to no tinkering). During my conversations with the “Bro” of Pro Bro” he felt, that while the plane with two ST 45’s has plenty of power, hovering was almost impossible due to uneven and unrepeatable thrust and response. I reprogrammed the radio. (Ok, my kid did) to mix the engines into the rudder above 50% throttle to see if the situation was better. He felt not. Subject dropped!
The purpose of the Twin Sync is to drop the throttles to idle if one engine fails automatically, to save an expensive model. It also forces the engines to synchronize their RPM by sensing both engines and adjusting the individual throttle servos. Now, perhaps this would be useful with 3D type twins and open a whole new world of excitement and complexity in the 3d Pro Bro World.
The test bed. A converted twin fuselage Long John. Two well used ST 45’s, 12x4 propellers, and more hours than I would care to think about.
It is sometimes written, “He who dies with the most toys-Wins!!”. Twin-sanity hit me many years ago and I still am in the terminal stages…Can’t get enough. I often get on my soapbox to warn others not to do twins as four times the problems. No one listens and the Manufacturers are coming out with more each week. Reliability has always been the danger with multi-engine planes. I have long been an advocate of gyros for rudders and ailerons to delay the unexpected snap roll that and engine out can cause, particularly in planes such as the P-38.
Along comes a new product by Bill Wike called the Twin-Sync. Like most of us “Seasoned” modelers, we are skeptical of new fangled electronics.
Managed to get my hands on this new marvel to try it out. (Back to the part of never having too many toys).
Now, I am game to try this new gadget out, but not really too interested in trying on a scale P-38 and deliberately killing an engine in flight…………Even with two gyros!!
(I will answer to Wuss, thank you very much!)
One of my “Creations” was taking two Long John’s and making a quasi P-82 twin fuse Long John. Lots of fun, easy to fly, and VERY STABLE in engine out. In fact it will take off and loop on one engine. (Don’t try this at home kids!!)
While I think it is very aerobatic, given my 3D skills, real three D pilots, of the so called Pro Bro league found it lacking. (What do they know? They fly single engine models that need little to no tinkering). During my conversations with the “Bro” of Pro Bro” he felt, that while the plane with two ST 45’s has plenty of power, hovering was almost impossible due to uneven and unrepeatable thrust and response. I reprogrammed the radio. (Ok, my kid did) to mix the engines into the rudder above 50% throttle to see if the situation was better. He felt not. Subject dropped!
The purpose of the Twin Sync is to drop the throttles to idle if one engine fails automatically, to save an expensive model. It also forces the engines to synchronize their RPM by sensing both engines and adjusting the individual throttle servos. Now, perhaps this would be useful with 3D type twins and open a whole new world of excitement and complexity in the 3d Pro Bro World.
The test bed. A converted twin fuselage Long John. Two well used ST 45’s, 12x4 propellers, and more hours than I would care to think about.
03-16-2007, 10:36 AM
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RE: Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
Installation and adjustment of the Twin Sync System.
After unpacking the kit and READING THE INSTRUCTION manual, you first need to be find North and South on the Rare Earth Magnets. Yes, you have to read the manual. Nothing is really scary about this installation, but…don’t tell anyone, but you do need to read the installation manual.
This is the twin-sync kit. I comes complete with magnetic pickups, two 3/16” rare earth magnets, the computer or command module, and special double ended connectors to connect to your receiver.
After unpacking the kit and READING THE INSTRUCTION manual, you first need to be find North and South on the Rare Earth Magnets. Yes, you have to read the manual. Nothing is really scary about this installation, but…don’t tell anyone, but you do need to read the installation manual.
This is the twin-sync kit. I comes complete with magnetic pickups, two 3/16” rare earth magnets, the computer or command module, and special double ended connectors to connect to your receiver.
03-16-2007, 10:39 AM
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RE: Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
Sensor installation and identification
Take a look at the sensors. Of course I do not need a magnifying glass for this, but some of you others, (and you know who you are), might.
One side has no writing on it. This is NOT the side to go toward the magnet
This side, with the writing, it the sensor side to face the magnets.
DO NOT INSTALL THE MAGNETS AT THIS TIME.
Run the throttle servo wire from the transmitter to the Twin Sync to power it up, after first turning on the transmitter…or course. Lay the rare earth magnet down on a flat piece of paper or some surface that you are SURE it will not roll off of and down into the shag carpet!!
Pass the sensor for servo or engine #1 over the magnet and look for the green light on the circuit board to light. If it does not light, turn the magnet over and try again. It will now light as you pass the sensor over it.
Now, Mark the correct pole or side of the magnet to identify which side MUST face the sensor. Use #1 or similar to not mix up the magnet for each engine and mark the sensor wires to make sure you do not cross them.
Notice the two green lights in the upper center of this picture
When you pass the sensor for engine two over the correct side of the magnet, this light will flash. The other light is for engine/ sensor two. Once the test is completed do not mix up the magnets or wiring.
Due to memory fading with hair, I marked the sensor wires 1 and 2 to avoid mix up.
Just to be sure ( The mind is going with the hair) I also marked the respective engines 1 and 2.
Take a look at the sensors. Of course I do not need a magnifying glass for this, but some of you others, (and you know who you are), might.
One side has no writing on it. This is NOT the side to go toward the magnet
This side, with the writing, it the sensor side to face the magnets.
DO NOT INSTALL THE MAGNETS AT THIS TIME.
Run the throttle servo wire from the transmitter to the Twin Sync to power it up, after first turning on the transmitter…or course. Lay the rare earth magnet down on a flat piece of paper or some surface that you are SURE it will not roll off of and down into the shag carpet!!
Pass the sensor for servo or engine #1 over the magnet and look for the green light on the circuit board to light. If it does not light, turn the magnet over and try again. It will now light as you pass the sensor over it.
Now, Mark the correct pole or side of the magnet to identify which side MUST face the sensor. Use #1 or similar to not mix up the magnet for each engine and mark the sensor wires to make sure you do not cross them.
Notice the two green lights in the upper center of this picture
When you pass the sensor for engine two over the correct side of the magnet, this light will flash. The other light is for engine/ sensor two. Once the test is completed do not mix up the magnets or wiring.
Due to memory fading with hair, I marked the sensor wires 1 and 2 to avoid mix up.
Just to be sure ( The mind is going with the hair) I also marked the respective engines 1 and 2.
03-16-2007, 10:41 AM
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RE: Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
Sensor magnet installation
Note, however you mount the magnets, you must make sure that they CANNOT COME OUT during engine running. If a magnet were to fly out during engine run up, the magnet could hit you or bystanders and cause injury.
The instructions that come with the kit suggest several possibilities to mount the sensor magnets in the spinner, so naturally I rejected those in favor of my way. No one in this hobby would do that!! Besides, I had plastic spinners which I worried as to how to PERMENTALTY attach the magnets.
I am using Super Tigre .45’s, so I removed the bearing cover and prop mount and drilled a pilot hole, that clear the internal webs. Note, if you are concerned about a balance issue, you could mount and second magnet on the other side. At such close proximity to the centerline of the engine, I did not feel this would be a problem.
The required hole is 3/16” and DO NOT REAM IT OUT. You need to keep the hole a tight fit.
Here is the magnet that is inserted into the predrilled hole. Make SURE the previously identified pole of the magnet is facing outward. At this point, I took a punch and slightly staked or crushed the outside of the hole to tighten the fit for the magnet. This was to make sure that the magnet could not slide out.
The magnet was inserted into the hole from the inside with 30 minute epoxy or Liquid Steel Epoxy and pushed into place flush with the outside with a small pair of pliers. DO NOT CRUSH the spinner back plate. Add a small additional dab of epoxy on the inside of the back plate and let dry. You must test fit the back plate after drying to make sure it does not rub the crankcase nose when it is reinstalled. After the glue dries for at least 24 hours, push on the magnet firmly to make sure it is tight.
Here is the outside of the back plate with very light staking of the hole, with the sensor magnet mounted flush. Make sure it cannot slip out.
Note, however you mount the magnets, you must make sure that they CANNOT COME OUT during engine running. If a magnet were to fly out during engine run up, the magnet could hit you or bystanders and cause injury.
The instructions that come with the kit suggest several possibilities to mount the sensor magnets in the spinner, so naturally I rejected those in favor of my way. No one in this hobby would do that!! Besides, I had plastic spinners which I worried as to how to PERMENTALTY attach the magnets.
I am using Super Tigre .45’s, so I removed the bearing cover and prop mount and drilled a pilot hole, that clear the internal webs. Note, if you are concerned about a balance issue, you could mount and second magnet on the other side. At such close proximity to the centerline of the engine, I did not feel this would be a problem.
The required hole is 3/16” and DO NOT REAM IT OUT. You need to keep the hole a tight fit.
Here is the magnet that is inserted into the predrilled hole. Make SURE the previously identified pole of the magnet is facing outward. At this point, I took a punch and slightly staked or crushed the outside of the hole to tighten the fit for the magnet. This was to make sure that the magnet could not slide out.
The magnet was inserted into the hole from the inside with 30 minute epoxy or Liquid Steel Epoxy and pushed into place flush with the outside with a small pair of pliers. DO NOT CRUSH the spinner back plate. Add a small additional dab of epoxy on the inside of the back plate and let dry. You must test fit the back plate after drying to make sure it does not rub the crankcase nose when it is reinstalled. After the glue dries for at least 24 hours, push on the magnet firmly to make sure it is tight.
Here is the outside of the back plate with very light staking of the hole, with the sensor magnet mounted flush. Make sure it cannot slip out.
03-16-2007, 10:44 AM
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RE: Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
Sensor Mounting
There are more engines and possible mounting conditions and possibilities than can be covered by one set of instructions, so I will only go over my idea. The sensor must be mounted to remain stable at a maximum distance of ¼” from the magnet. Possible methods are printed circuit boards or plastic boards from the engine mounts are possible ideas. The instructions go over several possibilities rather well,,,,,,,but I went a different route.
Off to my local Ace Hardware store in search of and idea. I know it is here, but where?
FOUND IT!! A hard plastic hose clamp with ratchet mechanism. It comes in various sizes and is heat resistant and less than ¼ wide. Life is GOOD!!
I picked a spot around 135 degrees away from the carburetor to mount the clamp. If a little 30 min epoxy or plumber goop would make you sleep better at night, between the clamp and crankcase, by all means add some. You will find that this clamp really fits and locks tight…especially after the use or my handy channel lock pliers.
The clamp I bought was a little large, but that means that here are two spaces left, (one approximately ¼” away from the center line and one around 1/8”) in the ratchet mechanism that the sensor for the magnet just slips through. Life is good…I planned that!!
Slide the sensor through the lower hole
Test fit the sensor in the clamp by sliding the sensor in and out until the sensor is positioned centered over the magnet. IMPORTANT NOTE..The backplate with the magnet must be oriented under the sensor in the bottom dead stroke position or approximately so. The idea is so that if one engine were to die and the prop “windmilled” to the compression stroke, you do not want the magnet under the sensor with the engine not running in the air. If it is, the computer might think that the engine is still running due to vibration and not function to bring the remaining engine to idle properly.
Remove the sensor and apply Plumbers Goop or similar to the wires and sensor base. DO NOT ALLOW THE ADHEASIVE TO EVEN APPROACH THE SENSOR END!!! I repositioned the sensor in the bracket to the correct position above the magnet and allowed the Plumbers Goop to dry. It may be necessary to position the wires to maintain the 1/8” gap as the Goop dries.
Here is my finished installation with the propeller and spinner attached. Make sure that no projection from the spinner will contact the sensor. If I had installed the magnets into the spinner, which is less likely to spin out due to centrifugal force, the sensor mount could be extended into a 90 degree bend.
The finished installation on both engines.
As this is my test bed, I did not cut hole in the firewall or fuse for the wires, but will route them on the fuselage and into the fuel tank hatches. Secure the wires to prevent wind from pulling them out, here Goop will work again. DO NOT clamp them to metal or eventually the insulation will wear through and cause a short circuit. The plan is to move this device to a more valuable plane if the system performs as I hope.
03-16-2007, 10:47 AM
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RE: Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
Testing it out
After following the instructions for low and high idle set points, off to the field.
Starting the engines is similar to normal start procedures, but once started the engines should be brought to idle momentarily to activate the sync system. From then on, it is completely automatic to hold the engines together on RPM like glue. On this type of application, I found it particularly useful and interesting.
One of the problems with an aerobatic twin and hovering is that the engines do not spool up together and therefore the hover maneuver is very difficult to maintain.
I am here to tell you, that problem is a thing of the past. The engines come up together, even if one is set rich.
The engines can still be set with dual input for mixing of rudder to engines for much better knife edge and spins so fast that on one model of mine, I could actually cause the engine going in reverse to die due to fuel starvation.
Does the Twin Sync do as promised to bring one engine to idle if the other dies? Yes. I think that I have also found that there are other benefits to it in multi-engine aerobatics.
Could it save a valuable twin, such as a P-38? A lot depends upon the skill of the pilot, BUT, the instant Death Flat spin WILL NOT HAPPEN. It will be up to the pilot now if he can bring the plane in. One less thing to loose hair over.
Twinman
After following the instructions for low and high idle set points, off to the field.
Starting the engines is similar to normal start procedures, but once started the engines should be brought to idle momentarily to activate the sync system. From then on, it is completely automatic to hold the engines together on RPM like glue. On this type of application, I found it particularly useful and interesting.
One of the problems with an aerobatic twin and hovering is that the engines do not spool up together and therefore the hover maneuver is very difficult to maintain.
I am here to tell you, that problem is a thing of the past. The engines come up together, even if one is set rich.
The engines can still be set with dual input for mixing of rudder to engines for much better knife edge and spins so fast that on one model of mine, I could actually cause the engine going in reverse to die due to fuel starvation.
Does the Twin Sync do as promised to bring one engine to idle if the other dies? Yes. I think that I have also found that there are other benefits to it in multi-engine aerobatics.
Could it save a valuable twin, such as a P-38? A lot depends upon the skill of the pilot, BUT, the instant Death Flat spin WILL NOT HAPPEN. It will be up to the pilot now if he can bring the plane in. One less thing to loose hair over.
Twinman
03-17-2007, 02:47 PM
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RE: Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
This is how I installed magnets in my setup. They are 1/8"dia. and about 1/4" long. These are RCV91CD thrust washer/bearing for my KMP B25, will not be using spinner so had to go this route. Works great. As the washer is open around the circumference of the bearing, it lends itself nicely to this installation. The sensor picks up the magnets up to 1/4" from the outer circumference of the bearing so there is room to work with. And there is no problem with the prospect of losing a magnet at high RPM due to centrifugul force should the bonding agent fail, which would not be good. No way this magnet gets out of there.
You just need to orient the magnets for the correct polarity as the magnetic field is generated from the sides of these magnets rather than the ends. Test with the sensors for correct alignment before gluing in.
Used JB weld to keep in place, balanced the thrust washers/bearing by removing a small amount of material via 1/8" bit next to the magnet.
Jim
You just need to orient the magnets for the correct polarity as the magnetic field is generated from the sides of these magnets rather than the ends. Test with the sensors for correct alignment before gluing in.
Used JB weld to keep in place, balanced the thrust washers/bearing by removing a small amount of material via 1/8" bit next to the magnet.
Jim
03-17-2007, 04:15 PM
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RE: Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
Two Tower Kaos Kits... Don't know if you can tell but I have the old OS SF's and one is contra-rotating. Fly's excellent. Absolutly no issues, I didn't put retaracts on it to keep it simple. Great everyday flyer...
Another twin, a bit faster...
Another twin, a bit faster...
03-18-2007, 09:32 AM
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RE: Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
Pilot 44
The magnets that you are using are quite a bit longer than the ones pictured in twinmans pictures. You also say that your magnets magnetic field is from the sides instead of the ends.
Did you purchase these magnets separately?
Greg
The magnets that you are using are quite a bit longer than the ones pictured in twinmans pictures. You also say that your magnets magnetic field is from the sides instead of the ends.
Did you purchase these magnets separately?
Greg
03-18-2007, 10:14 AM
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RE: Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
ORIGINAL: OldRookie
Pilot 44
The magnets that you are using are quite a bit longer than the ones pictured in twinmans pictures. You also say that your magnets magnetic field is from the sides instead of the ends.
Did you purchase these magnets separately?
Greg
Pilot 44
The magnets that you are using are quite a bit longer than the ones pictured in twinmans pictures. You also say that your magnets magnetic field is from the sides instead of the ends.
Did you purchase these magnets separately?
Greg
Yes, I had to purchase the those magnets separately. They are available thru Bill Wike ( [email protected] ) who manufacturers the Twin Sync units.
The magnetic poles are on the sides of this magnet rather than the ends, yes.
Jim
03-18-2007, 09:23 PM
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RE: Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
Evan-RCU,
I love it!!! I need plans for that. I flew my outlaw today and was trying to figue out how to get more speed out of it. I was thinking about different props, lighter airframe, switching to my 30% heli-fuel, etc--- Now I've got it... a second engine... I need plans for it. I am probably not able to break 120mph with my old beat up outlaw... need more speed. If that thing is as fast as it looks my turbines may be destined for ebay.
Twin-Man,
Great write up and thanks for spending the time to try out the Twinsync and the thread. I would love to get some video of the hover. I will show the video at Toledo if you can get some to me. email me for details on how to send them.
What is next... I have (4) Magnum .15's in a box along with (4) OS .40s... I can envission a 3-D monster 80-100" wingspan profile B-17 bumping it's rudder in a hover with oversized control surfaces at some event in the near future!!!
Billw
I love it!!! I need plans for that. I flew my outlaw today and was trying to figue out how to get more speed out of it. I was thinking about different props, lighter airframe, switching to my 30% heli-fuel, etc--- Now I've got it... a second engine... I need plans for it. I am probably not able to break 120mph with my old beat up outlaw... need more speed. If that thing is as fast as it looks my turbines may be destined for ebay.
Twin-Man,
Great write up and thanks for spending the time to try out the Twinsync and the thread. I would love to get some video of the hover. I will show the video at Toledo if you can get some to me. email me for details on how to send them.
What is next... I have (4) Magnum .15's in a box along with (4) OS .40s... I can envission a 3-D monster 80-100" wingspan profile B-17 bumping it's rudder in a hover with oversized control surfaces at some event in the near future!!!
Billw
03-18-2007, 09:39 PM
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RE: Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
yl5295...on the B-17 profile...uh could I suggest the B-24????Rudders in prop blast.
I love it when someone besides me loses IT!!
Twinman
I love it when someone besides me loses IT!!
Twinman
03-19-2007, 08:23 AM
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RE: Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
I didn't make plans sorry... There's been a lot of comments about how fast the twin is NOT. Flying back to back with my Magnum she's easily 30-40mph faster and the Magnum is 160+. But many on here say a delta can't go that fast and a twin is slower than a single engine.... Too many engineers.....
You have 4 .15's????
This has OS.25's and they are too much, .15's would be excellent!!
You have 4 .15's????
This has OS.25's and they are too much, .15's would be excellent!!
03-19-2007, 05:23 PM
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RE: Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
Pilot44.....I also noticed that you had a hole drilled perpendicular to the hole the magnet is glued into. What is the purpose of this hole?
I think I would drill another hole at 180 degrees to the magnet hole and put in a small piece of bar stock to balance the washer. Would this interfear with the operation of this unit?
Thanks in advance,
Greg
I think I would drill another hole at 180 degrees to the magnet hole and put in a small piece of bar stock to balance the washer. Would this interfear with the operation of this unit?
Thanks in advance,
Greg
03-19-2007, 06:22 PM
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RE: Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
ORIGINAL: OldRookie
Pilot44.....I also noticed that you had a hole drilled perpendicular to the hole the magnet is glued into. What is the purpose of this hole?
I think I would drill another hole at 180 degrees to the magnet hole and put in a small piece of bar stock to balance the washer. Would this interfear with the operation of this unit?
Thanks in advance,
Greg
Pilot44.....I also noticed that you had a hole drilled perpendicular to the hole the magnet is glued into. What is the purpose of this hole?
I think I would drill another hole at 180 degrees to the magnet hole and put in a small piece of bar stock to balance the washer. Would this interfear with the operation of this unit?
Thanks in advance,
Greg
As the magnet material is denser than the aluminum, I drilled out, a bit at a time, enough material to balance the washer, using a magnetic balancer. You could use another magnet or similar size plain bar stock (bar stock would not interfere with the units operation) as you mention 180 degrees opposing. I chose to use the material removal method. The washer is balanced as best as can be using my equipment.
Jim
03-22-2007, 11:59 PM
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RE: Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
What engines are on the delta and what size is it? I was thinking about a pair of piped Rossi/jet/Webra 32-40 class engines with short high pitched racing props. That is BS that deltas are not fast. A friend of mine radar clocked his single engine delta at 150+. Whether a twin is faster than a single I can not comment. However if the engines are in sync it sounds at least 20 mph faster than it really is (even if it is not that fast).
True story... everyone at my club thought I had one of the fastest planes there. (twin engine combat plane with a pair of .15s). I did a lot of low passes and got lots of echos from the trees. One guy asked me if I was breaking 100mphs.
I had 8x3 props turning about 18K rpm. If you do the math you know it was flying at about 50-60 mph. It just sounded like 100mph. everyone loved it.
I need a high rpm twin delta... that sounds like fun... (or a 3D B-17 even more fun)...
True story... everyone at my club thought I had one of the fastest planes there. (twin engine combat plane with a pair of .15s). I did a lot of low passes and got lots of echos from the trees. One guy asked me if I was breaking 100mphs.
I had 8x3 props turning about 18K rpm. If you do the math you know it was flying at about 50-60 mph. It just sounded like 100mph. everyone loved it.
I need a high rpm twin delta... that sounds like fun... (or a 3D B-17 even more fun)...
03-23-2007, 08:21 AM
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RE: Twinman and Twin Sync. Lord Help Us all!
yl5295
You need a nap..calm down boy........uh...........when you get the 3 D B-17 going,,,uh give me a call.........Have video will travel. You da man!!
Bill is working on the sync system for the B-17 NOW.
Twinman
You need a nap..calm down boy........uh...........when you get the 3 D B-17 going,,,uh give me a call.........Have video will travel. You da man!!
Bill is working on the sync system for the B-17 NOW.
Twinman