jrjohn

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Hi My name is John, I'm just learning how to hover. I have already learned how to recover from a stalled hover without loosing hardly any altitude, I can even hover at about 75 feet above the ground for aprox 5 seconds. During the hover I have to apply full right rudder, and eventually it still wants to fall to the left. Is this normal? I was thinking maybe it's important for the plane to be ballanced so each side of the plane is the same weight? Any help on hovering will be greatly appreciated. Maybe I need to blip the throttle more?
I'm flying a hangar 9 Edge 540 with a Saito 180. (plenty of power)

thank you

John

[email protected]

wgeffon

My Feedback: (4)

Do you have any right thrust set in the motor? If so, maybe a little more would help. I just flew one (H9 Edge) yesterday with a Saito 1.80. His plane hovered pretty well without having to add a ton of right rudder.
I thought the Edge and Saito 1.80 combination was just about perfect.

jrjohn

My Feedback: (24)

The Plans didn't call for any right thrust. Please ask the person that one you flew, if he built right thrust into the engine. Have any other ideas? how about the lateral ballance?

John

wgeffon

My Feedback: (4)

Ok, I will find out and post here.

shmo46

It is easy to check lateral ballance, and chances are if it is off, it will make a small difference, but right thrust is likely to be the culprit. It is especialy important when most of the air on the rudder is being spiraled back from the prop (not comming straight back from forward velocity). Another thing you could look at is, can you get more rudder throw? Once you get good at it, you don't absolutly need full throw, but being able to force the tail under the plane even when it has fallen out pretty far makes learning faster.

jrjohn

My Feedback: (24)

OK I'll check the lateral ballance, I assume I just hang it from the center of the spinner to the tip of the tail and see which wing is heavy. I can move my 6 volt battery pack one way or the other, hopefully to the right. I've got the rudder servo set at max throw, It's the standard Jr servo horn. I'll need to get a larger aftermarket horn. any ideas? I think dubro makes some plastic ones. anyway, this will get me more throw.I think the rudder has about 2 1//2 inches of throw right now, does this sound adaquate? well, it that doesn't do it, i'll put some right thrust in, but then my cowling won't line up perfectly.....UGGGGGG

John

If your not a dream, your a nightmare
clear the prop!

shmo46

I have the same plane, haven't finished it yet, but my guess is you might be happy with 3 1/2 inches rudder. Some say there is no such thing as too much rudder. JR does make longer arms, maybe you can put the cables on a shorter position? Anyway that will probably help, but the whole game is about practice and reaction time. probably 90% skill, 10% set up.

Just took a closer look. The firewall is alreay set for a couple degrees of engine thrust, you might not need any more. this plane was designed by a 3D dude for 3D dudes. chances are high that if you just practice a bit more, the tendancy to fall to one side will go away (mine always "pitched to the belly", untill i got the hang of it) could just be your thumb is faster going left that it is going right.

Hang in there

jrjohn

My Feedback: (24)

I think your right about the need for more rudder, as for the thumb, it's not that it's slow, I have the thing pegged to the right all the way and it never falls to the right. I'll check the lateral ballance tomorrow. The longer horns will be purchased Imediatly, I hate to move too close in on the horn to gain throw. could cause flutter at high speeds. Ouch!

It's not the fall that hurts, it's the sudden stop!

shmo46

On second thought, have you dialed the plane in for up lines? i mean, point it up, full throtle, hands off and see where she goes? if something needs to be adjusted, it should should show up there.

jrjohn

My Feedback: (24)

No I haven't dialed it in for up lines. Never occured to me, I'll do this as well on the next flight. I'll learn to hover if it kills me!

thanks again.


Dieing isn't bad, it's just that your dead for so long!

shmo46

Hi John,

I was just talking to an old friend about the Edge. He said for 3D you often do need a little more right thrust than for mormal flying.

jrjohn

My Feedback: (24)

I think your right about the right thrust.
Now I'm trying to hover with my sig sukhoi 31 1/4 scale. the edge is a much better plane

Matt.B

I was going to start my own thread for this question, but I guess I'll just ask it here. I am flying a GP Giles 202 (46 size).
I have an OS 91 Surpass in it with a 15x6 APC prop, balance is a little rearward of recommended CG. I am currently learning how to hover with it, I can get it nice and stable for about 7 seconds, but each second is a fight with the torque of the engine. I am constantly giving it more and more right aileron until I can't give it anymore and it starts spinning around. At this point I lose it. I try to hover it in a slightly non vertical position so that it won't torque but it just loves to get itself into that torque position after a few seconds. Does anyone have any advice to keep this from happening? I am not sure if I can give it more aileron throw, I am already over the recommended max. I have read that the position that an aircraft torques has to do with the thrust line of the engine. I am pretty sure that I have a little upthrust in mine right now. If I added a washer, giving it a little downthrust, would this allow me to get it vertical without it wanting to torque roll as much? If I understand it correctly, adding downthrust makes it so that the plane has to be past vertical, more towards the canopy for it to start torque rolling...is that correct?
Thanks!

3DMike

Well I have to say that a GP giles isnt really an ideal plane to learn to TR or hover on, 3d isnt 100% skill even though some people like to think it is, the airframe really helps . A plane like this probably wont be able to be stopped during the TR because of the small ailerons, I still recomend a funfly type design for learning the hover, you can practice at all attitudes such as wheels in or on its side which would help you greatly when it starts spinning.
About the Edge, I think from experience the position where the plane is falling out is just at the point where a small blip of power needs to be applied, you will probably find if you quickly add enough power to kick the plane back in the upright position you will be able to center the rudder and continue with your hovering. really in time you will be able to catch this before it wants to happen, thats the joy of 3d. Good luck
Mike

www.rcnz.cjb.net

jrjohn

My Feedback: (24)

I'm thinking a different diameter prop may help but I'm not sure if it should be bigger or smaller. I'm sure somebody will know. (probably smaller)

jrjohn

My Feedback: (24)

Mike, I think your right about adding the throttle. I was reading about hovering, and they say you have to "fly the throttle" is this what your talking about? the article didn't give a clear explaination of what that ment

John

3DMike

Hi john, thats exactly what they talking about when they say "fly with the throttle". As anyone who has mastered this would say in the hover your constantly jugling with the correct throttle setting, The first step is finding the sweet spot on the stick where your edge just sits there without loosing or gaining height which it sounds like your at. Next is keeping it here and nows where the work starts, first thing is that you cant let it drop as when it starts to drop the props torque really takes over, and usually you cant stay in control. usually the throttle movements only a few clicks but this keeps the model above the point of wanting to fall off the hover. Really the truth is you dont need hardly ant rudder to hover, when you get good, elevator is much more important as they get quite pitchy. You need the rudder for getting out of crap mostly. try to put small jabs of right rudder in all the time, after a while you will see the planes going off the vertical and you will instinctively put in the rudder, from here all I can say is practice, trust me you dont need any more rudder . If you can get your hands on a good simulator, say realflight G2 it would be a great start
later
Mike

www.rcnz.cjb.net

shmo46

Glad to hear you like the edge.

getting anxious to get mine in the air.

shmo46

Matt

Seems to me the Giles can be hovered with out TR-ing if you flip in a little spoileron. That might force the plane to point just a bit tward the belly. My Extra wants to TR on me too, but i noticed it is only when the tail is exactly under the prop. haven't played with it very long , but it realy does seem to stay put longer when i do that.

Ideas? opinions?

hoveralot

Hi,

I have that airplane but i'm using a ST .90 and 14X6 prop for power. This airplane is very dificult to keep in hover even if you play with the thrust angle, what i did was to use the maximun travel for ailerons and use dual rates so when in normal fligth it won't bee too touchy, then when in hover attitude i don't "rock" the throttle too hard because it will ALWAYS cause a Torque Roll that can not be stopped. Just try to find the necesary power to hold the hover and keep it there unless you need to correct a lot (usually when learning) to keep the nose high.

There is something i have heard a lot about "rock the Throttle" when in hover but in my experience it is not true at all. I'm able to hover my Super Wasp (excellent hover instructor) for as long as i want, i can do tail touches and land from a tail touch without problems and i ONLY rock the throttle when i need to correct a lot in elevator or rudder but for normal steady hover i just keep the throttle in the perfect place and the SW will stay there for as long as i want, in fact, i do tail touches just by using one click less for power.

I have read this in Frank Noll Jr. web page who wrote that rocking the throttle is only for correcting and torque rolling and not for steady hover.

I agree that airframes help a lot and using a sim is the best way to learn how to hover an airplane, what 3DMIKE wrote is the right way to learn how to hover an airplane.

P.D. Excuse my english.

robert

Did you think of putting 2 micro servos in, one for each elevator half, and if possible, use them a ailreons for hovering. I heard it works sometimes.
Robert.

Tuomo

One aspect not given much attention in this thread is propeller choise. The plane I fly mostly right now is Diablotin Std with Irvine 72. It is basically a very easy plane to hover.

However, if I use 6 inch pitch propeller (tested APC 13x6 and 14x6) it becomes difficult to keep in place. Needs 3/4 power. APC 14x4W transforms it -- very stable, hovers at half throttle, need very little right aileron to prevent torque rolling.

The moral: use ow pitch propeller at least when learning the basics.

Welsh3D

my H9 Edge has 2 degrees built in right thrust, and it hovers perfectly with only the expected rudder correction.... i can recommend a simulator to learn to hover, it really gives you tiem to think whats going on and how to correct it, without having to think where the ground is and if you have room for emergency!

Matt.B

I'll use dual rates to add as much throw as I can on the ailerons, and I'll try spoilerons also. I hadn't considered using the elevators as ailerons, I'll try that if nothing else works.
Will messing around with the thrust line not help much at all? Should I not even bother?
Tuomo - Do you mean that going with a lower pitch prop ( 15x4 instead of 15x6 ) will help with the torque problem?
Thanks

Tuomo

Yes, it makes hovering much more easy to control. I think it because low pitch propeller is more effecient at low speeds and gives better airstream to aileron roots and tail feathers. When you hover, the airstream more or less spirals down the fuselage. Low pitch makes the spiral straighter. This is my theory -- do you agree?

APC makes 15x4W that has wide blades. They also have 16x4W. This might be too much for 91 4-stroke but OS 91 FX turns it easily.

Currently I use 14x4W in Irvine 72 (Diablotin) and Saito 72 (Laser 3D). When you go to smaller models look at 13x4W (for YS 63 & 60-2-strokes) and 13x4 (for Irvine 53 & Rossi 53). I have found that the 46-size 2-strokes can use APC 12,25x3,75, 12x4 or 11,5x4.