Allure by Bryan Hebert
04-21-2016, 12:43 PM
#501
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Yes, Bryan mentioned this. The trouble is there's only a 2.5mm rib at the tip of the elevator so if you cut it there wouldn't be much of it left. The one positive thing about doing it the way I have is that it's easier to sand the stab TE on a long sanding bar to make sure it's perfectly straight for the hinge line. This was also done on the elevators.
Cheers,
Jason.
04-21-2016, 01:05 PM
#502
Yes, cutting through a thin rib is a challenge.
I used the technique during my last build and pretty much did not apply any glue between the cap piece and the section of the rib belonging to the elevator, except a very small amount at the tip. The separation was pretty easy with this arrangement, with a knife.
I used the technique during my last build and pretty much did not apply any glue between the cap piece and the section of the rib belonging to the elevator, except a very small amount at the tip. The separation was pretty easy with this arrangement, with a knife.
04-21-2016, 01:17 PM
#503
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Yes, cutting through a thin rib is a challenge.
I used the technique during my last build and pretty much did not apply any glue between the cap piece and the section of the rib belonging to the elevator, except a very small amount at the tip. The separation was pretty easy with this arrangement, with a knife.
I used the technique during my last build and pretty much did not apply any glue between the cap piece and the section of the rib belonging to the elevator, except a very small amount at the tip. The separation was pretty easy with this arrangement, with a knife.
This wing/stab kit is still in development so to speak so adding a second sub-rib in the elevator is a possible change. Then you could just glue the whole tip on. This is pretty much what has been done on the ailerons.
I've been keeping notes of the little issues encountered during this build and these will be fed back to Bryan for refining the kit so it goes together even better than it already does.
Cheers,
Jason.
05-01-2016, 03:43 AM
#504
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Some more progress. The stab tips have been sanded to shape with 120 grit paper. A strip of masking tape on the stab helps prevent sanding into the stab. Then remove the tape and fine sand the rest which is only a paper thickness.
Also have both wings framed up ready to separate from the jigs.
Cheers,
Jason.
Also have both wings framed up ready to separate from the jigs.
Cheers,
Jason.
05-01-2016, 04:04 AM
#505
My Feedback: (1)
Jason,
Very nice to see a build of an F3A plane, at least wing+stab. It is great that Allure is avalable as a builders kit, To maybe keep the cost down a little in the end and also give people possibility to build (some still like to build). I do not know if the builder select the balsa sheeting himself but in theory it is nice that one can select light high quality (formerly known as "contest balsa") to keep weight down if needed. And if You are a skilled builder You can get as good build quality and finish/paint (or plastic film) as Your skill allow. And Your own paint scheme not to forget, to get that individual touch on the plane (it is so boring with most ARF same or few variations on paint scheme).
Just curious:
1) Is Your build a "prototype" build of the Allure builders kit, so You will validate everything fits, have enough strength (at flying) and so on?
2) Will You make any enhancements or modification to suite any special demands You have personally on an airplane like this (that is not on the ARF Allure)?
/Bo
Very nice to see a build of an F3A plane, at least wing+stab. It is great that Allure is avalable as a builders kit, To maybe keep the cost down a little in the end and also give people possibility to build (some still like to build). I do not know if the builder select the balsa sheeting himself but in theory it is nice that one can select light high quality (formerly known as "contest balsa") to keep weight down if needed. And if You are a skilled builder You can get as good build quality and finish/paint (or plastic film) as Your skill allow. And Your own paint scheme not to forget, to get that individual touch on the plane (it is so boring with most ARF same or few variations on paint scheme).
Just curious:
1) Is Your build a "prototype" build of the Allure builders kit, so You will validate everything fits, have enough strength (at flying) and so on?
2) Will You make any enhancements or modification to suite any special demands You have personally on an airplane like this (that is not on the ARF Allure)?
/Bo
Last edited by bem; 05-01-2016 at 09:27 AM.
05-01-2016, 12:49 PM
#506
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Jason,
Very nice to see a build of an F3A plane, at least wing+stab. It is great that Allure is avalable as a builders kit, To maybe keep the cost down a little in the end and also give people possibility to build (some still like to build). I do not know if the builder select the balsa sheeting himself but in theory it is nice that one can select light high quality (formerly known as "contest balsa") to keep weight down if needed. And if You are a skilled builder You can get as good build quality and finish/paint (or plastic film) as Your skill allow. And Your own paint scheme not to forget, to get that individual touch on the plane (it is so boring with most ARF same or few variations on paint scheme).
Just curious:
1) Is Your build a "prototype" build of the Allure builders kit, so You will validate everything fits, have enough strength (at flying) and so on?
2) Will You make any enhancements or modification to suite any special demands You have personally on an airplane like this (that is not on the ARF Allure)?
/Bo
Very nice to see a build of an F3A plane, at least wing+stab. It is great that Allure is avalable as a builders kit, To maybe keep the cost down a little in the end and also give people possibility to build (some still like to build). I do not know if the builder select the balsa sheeting himself but in theory it is nice that one can select light high quality (formerly known as "contest balsa") to keep weight down if needed. And if You are a skilled builder You can get as good build quality and finish/paint (or plastic film) as Your skill allow. And Your own paint scheme not to forget, to get that individual touch on the plane (it is so boring with most ARF same or few variations on paint scheme).
Just curious:
1) Is Your build a "prototype" build of the Allure builders kit, so You will validate everything fits, have enough strength (at flying) and so on?
2) Will You make any enhancements or modification to suite any special demands You have personally on an airplane like this (that is not on the ARF Allure)?
/Bo
Yes, this is the first built-up wing and stab kit down under (Australia/NZ). I think there may be one (or more) in the US too. I'm sure the strength will be more than adequate.
Some changes or refinements will be made on subsequent kits to make the build almost fall together. The changes are really very minor. The actual structure was designed by Mark Hunt of Insight RC. He's been making built up structures for a long time now so I don't think there will be any strength issues.
And yes, it's great that a builders kit is available. It brings Bryan's design into a new price point whereby more people can have the opportunity to experience just how good his design really is.
Cheers,
Jason.
05-02-2016, 07:57 PM
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Yesterday a Tettra Hinge Guide arrived in the mail. The Dubro hinge guide that I had just didn't cut the mustard. The Tettra guides are still available if you look around. I believe that Tettra has now closed its doors.
Also, to save time shaping the tips a Master Airscrew razor plane was used. Nothing like having balsa shavings and dust all over the joint.
Cheers,
Jason.
Also, to save time shaping the tips a Master Airscrew razor plane was used. Nothing like having balsa shavings and dust all over the joint.
Cheers,
Jason.
05-04-2016, 12:28 AM
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05-04-2016, 01:20 PM
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I've now started preparing the wing skins. The first thing I do is true the edges of each 2.5mm balsa sheet with a knife/straight edge and then give them a brief sand with 120 grit paper glued to a piece of aluminium angle. You can see this in the photos on the CNC bed. I made the skins approximately 1/8" oversize all round. You will find that the 3' (915mm) used on the leading edge is just big enough...
Masking tape is used to hold each sheet together and then Alphatic resin is used to glue each edge together. Bending the joins over the edge of your bench helps get the glue into the joints. Make sure you wipe off as much excess glue as you can with a damp cloth to make sanding the skins easier. Then put some waxed paper down on your bench and lay the shin onto it with masking tape side up. As you can see in the pictures, I then grab everything I can which weighs something to keep the skin flat.
Cheers,
Jason.
Masking tape is used to hold each sheet together and then Alphatic resin is used to glue each edge together. Bending the joins over the edge of your bench helps get the glue into the joints. Make sure you wipe off as much excess glue as you can with a damp cloth to make sanding the skins easier. Then put some waxed paper down on your bench and lay the shin onto it with masking tape side up. As you can see in the pictures, I then grab everything I can which weighs something to keep the skin flat.
Cheers,
Jason.
Last edited by Jason Arnold; 05-08-2016 at 11:42 PM. Reason: Trouble adding pictures.
05-08-2016, 11:52 PM
#513
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I'm going to run paper tubes in the wings for the aileron extensions. I did a small test piece just to make sure it fitted ok. The tubes will be approximately 40cm long and are wrapped around a 15mm mandrel. I cut the paper 60mm wide and about 420mm long. Then add some double sided tape to one edge and start wrapping it around the mandrel. The paper I used is a bit thicker than normal photocopy paper and has a natural curve to it. It's off a plotter roll. Don't try to roll against this natural curve.. This is one of those jobs where an extra set of hands come in handy... I find taping the ends to the mandrel and using a long ruler helps to wrap the paper and hold things while removing the backing from the double sided tape.
I've since rolled the full length tubes and will get some pictures up shortly.
Cheers,
Jason.
I've since rolled the full length tubes and will get some pictures up shortly.
Cheers,
Jason.
05-09-2016, 12:57 AM
#514
My Feedback: (1)
Hi Jason,
So paper tunnels for servo leads is rather common practice then? I noticed in my Galactika that the servo lead tunnel to tail has a "strange pattern" I did not figure out what material it was. Now i realize it is a paper tunnel. Shold be very light.
/Bo
So paper tunnels for servo leads is rather common practice then? I noticed in my Galactika that the servo lead tunnel to tail has a "strange pattern" I did not figure out what material it was. Now i realize it is a paper tunnel. Shold be very light.
/Bo
05-09-2016, 01:34 AM
#515
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Yes, paper is pretty common. The Allure fuse comes with a paper tube for the elevator extensions. The paper they use is a bit stiffer again. Almost like it's been painted with epoxy resin.
You can get away with not using tubes but you then have to use something like a stick to pull the extension through the wing.
Cheers,
Jason.
05-13-2016, 09:41 PM
#516
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I promised some pictures of the full length extension tubes. See below.
These can also be used in the fuse to run the elevator extensions. A Longer one of course.
These can also be used in the fuse to run the elevator extensions. A Longer one of course.
05-14-2016, 01:56 AM
#517
My Feedback: (1)
Hi,
I'm little surprised that iti is so many ribs in the wing. But is I suppose better to be safe then sorry. When sheeted that wing should be very strong it seems. It will be very interesting to compare final dry weight (covered with plastic film and all except servo and linkages/horn) to a Allure ARF composite wing (I assume You have the dry weight on one Allure composite wing to compare with later). Is the balsa wing sheeting meant to be included in the builders kit with the built up balsa wing or is the builder to buy/choose his own balsa for this? Obviously the balsa sheeting should be of hight quality light contest balsa to keep weight down, and strength up with correct grain. What quality of balsa are You using to sheet the wing with? What is weight of one sheet You will use and what grain do You use? For example SIG Mfg still has Contest balsa sheets in their Catalog and on their website, and have a fee per sheet for selection of grain (A, B, C) and weight.
/Bo
I'm little surprised that iti is so many ribs in the wing. But is I suppose better to be safe then sorry. When sheeted that wing should be very strong it seems. It will be very interesting to compare final dry weight (covered with plastic film and all except servo and linkages/horn) to a Allure ARF composite wing (I assume You have the dry weight on one Allure composite wing to compare with later). Is the balsa wing sheeting meant to be included in the builders kit with the built up balsa wing or is the builder to buy/choose his own balsa for this? Obviously the balsa sheeting should be of hight quality light contest balsa to keep weight down, and strength up with correct grain. What quality of balsa are You using to sheet the wing with? What is weight of one sheet You will use and what grain do You use? For example SIG Mfg still has Contest balsa sheets in their Catalog and on their website, and have a fee per sheet for selection of grain (A, B, C) and weight.
/Bo
05-14-2016, 03:46 AM
#519
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Hi Bo,
The whole kit has been cut from contest balsa. The 2.5mm sheets used weigh between 16 and 20 grams. This is for a 100mm x 915mm sheet.
The kit can be supplied short or long (all sheeting included).
Finished weights? For the stabs my estimate is 87 grams and 95 grams. I went a little heavy on the PU glue on the first stab :-( The composite stabs in my Allure are around 117 grams.
I've not separated the wings from their jigs yet so don't have any weights on them yet. My composte wings are 363 grams and 387 grams.
Cheers,
Jason.
The whole kit has been cut from contest balsa. The 2.5mm sheets used weigh between 16 and 20 grams. This is for a 100mm x 915mm sheet.
The kit can be supplied short or long (all sheeting included).
Finished weights? For the stabs my estimate is 87 grams and 95 grams. I went a little heavy on the PU glue on the first stab :-( The composite stabs in my Allure are around 117 grams.
I've not separated the wings from their jigs yet so don't have any weights on them yet. My composte wings are 363 grams and 387 grams.
Cheers,
Jason.
05-14-2016, 06:04 PM
#520
Senior Member
Built up wings and/stabs should be about 15-20% lighter than balsa veneered foam. Composite wing weight tends to vary .....built up should be at least 20% lighter than composite. Look in the classic pattern forum in the Few Ideas thread. The wing panels there are 470 square inches and weigh about 295 grams before clear coats, all paint of course. Should come in at 305 grams finished which is about the same as wrinkle koted built up wings. Add 50 grams for equipment.
edit- I also have built stabs using the lost foam technique. These weights are around 75 grams each 130 square inch panel, fully finished in Esaki jap tissue, dope and paint. I hate wrinkle Kote.
Any weight savings is a good thing since the Allure is very large and weight control is a must. A 4600 gram Allure will fly easier than a 5000 gram one. That's true for any of these planes of course.
edit- I also have built stabs using the lost foam technique. These weights are around 75 grams each 130 square inch panel, fully finished in Esaki jap tissue, dope and paint. I hate wrinkle Kote.
Any weight savings is a good thing since the Allure is very large and weight control is a must. A 4600 gram Allure will fly easier than a 5000 gram one. That's true for any of these planes of course.
Last edited by MTK; 05-14-2016 at 06:21 PM.
05-14-2016, 06:52 PM
#521
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Built up wings and/stabs should be about 15-20% lighter than balsa veneered foam. Composite wing weight tends to vary .....built up should be at least 20% lighter than composite. Look in the classic pattern forum in the Few Ideas thread. The wing panels there are 470 square inches and weigh about 295 grams before clear coats, all paint of course. Should come in at 305 grams finished which is about the same as wrinkle koted built up wings. Add 50 grams for equipment.
edit- I also have built stabs using the lost foam technique. These weights are around 75 grams each 130 square inch panel, fully finished in Esaki jap tissue, dope and paint. I hate wrinkle Kote.
Any weight savings is a good thing since the Allure is very large and weight control is a must. A 4600 gram Allure will fly easier than a 5000 gram one. That's true for any of these planes of course.
edit- I also have built stabs using the lost foam technique. These weights are around 75 grams each 130 square inch panel, fully finished in Esaki jap tissue, dope and paint. I hate wrinkle Kote.
Any weight savings is a good thing since the Allure is very large and weight control is a must. A 4600 gram Allure will fly easier than a 5000 gram one. That's true for any of these planes of course.
I was considering painting these wings and stabs but have decided to do film for this first set.
And yes, a 4600 gram Allure does fly better than a 5000 gram model. No doubt about it!
Cheers,
Jason.
05-20-2016, 10:37 PM
#522
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Anti-rotation pins cut and fitted. Not glued in yet. Will do that after skinning. The pins are 8mm OD carbon tube 30mm long. Used a bit of 12mm ply with an 8mm hole in it to help hold the carbon whilst cutting with the Dremel. Also helps to keep the tube cuts square. A reamer was used to open the holes out to 8mm.
I added some 1/4" balsa to the back of the root rib for a bit of extra gluing area.
Cheers,
Jason.
I added some 1/4" balsa to the back of the root rib for a bit of extra gluing area.
Cheers,
Jason.
Last edited by Jason Arnold; 05-21-2016 at 12:07 AM.
05-20-2016, 10:57 PM
#523
Anti-rotation pins cut and fitted. Not glued in yet. Will do that after skinning. The pins are 8mm OD carbon tube 30mm long. Used a bit of 12mm ply with an 8mm hole in it to help hold the carbon whilst cutting with the Dremel. Also helps to keep the tube cuts square. A reamer was used to open the holes out to 8mm.
I added some 1/4" balsa to the back of the root rib for a bit of extra gluing area.
Cheers,
Jason.
I added some 1/4" balsa to the back of the root rib for a bit of extra gluing area.
Cheers,
Jason.
05-20-2016, 11:55 PM
#525
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