mlr53

My Feedback: (1)

At each contest I have attended, I have seen competitors with top of the line planes and equipment from top to bottom, just having the top of the line equipment didn't put them on top. Some wins, some looses. In most cases it's the best pilot. Considering the time and effort I put into my pattern plane triming and working on getting it to fly the best it can, so that I can fly the best I can, I would not compete in a claiming event. If someone claims the plane then what, your out for the rest of the season? That would actually increase the cost of competiting as you would need multiple planes, ready to go in case someone claimed your plane. If you do the research, you will generally find that the guy who spends the most time, triming, practicing, and getting to know his equipment will come out on or near the top pretty often. I firmly believe the effort you put into it makes the difference. I started flying pattern with a Kaos, had fun and took a few trophies (though not a first). Moving to a better pattern plane improved my flying some but I still got beat by guy's with less pricey not so precise planes. Fly what you have, look for a good used plane, and work toward improving your skills and abilities.

This brings up the question, as a judge, do you give better scores to the guy with the top of the line equipment as compared to someone with less quality equipment?

nonstoprc

My Feedback: (90)

I woud add that a modern design pattern plane (say 1-2 years old) definitely flies better. A pilot thus struggles/works less to arrive at the same level of competitive-ness at a contest.

With that said, an old design still could be competitive, provided the pilot does the homework (much more) and has the talent to fly the old-design plane to arrive at the same level. It is doable but harder.

g_mkoch

Putting a limit on the amount someone can spend on a pattern plane would not level the playing field. There are simply too many other factors that play into someone winning or not. Yes, the proper equipment can make a difference, but also the time spent practicing, trimming and adjusting one's plane.

Monte. Ideally one would judge everyone the same way, but like any other judging sport, there is always the element of human nature.

MetallicaJunkie

+5 im impressed my self seeing some big names involved..

bjr_93tz

People can argue to the contrary all they want but as humans we have biases in the way we perceive things. In Pattern we've done the best job that can be reasonably expected to eliminate the effects of these biases through identification, education and the scoring system.

One program I watched showed how something as simple as colour can alter perception by having actors filmed in a situation with that film shown to groups of people's with their perceptions obtained via questionairs. The colors on the actors shirts were altered electronically and there were significant differences in the perceptions of the audiences based on the shirt colours alone. That is why I'll never own a green motorcycle or a green plane because there's always something not right about something painted green :-)

Seriously though, unless we're flying the same plane/motore/colour scheme/style and the judges don't know who the pilot is (at a small comp you don't have to see the pilot to know who's flying, you just know their style), then it'll never be a true level playing field.

But if it were like that then pattern would be just that little bit more boring....

cmoulder

Don't worry, Red, you're in good company with Chip Hyde and Quique Somenzini.

Check out the footage at 1:47 of [link=http://www.youtube.be/watch?v=iitOCiCoqGo&feature=related]this video.[/link]

kenh3497

And then $10000 to be competitive....... Even a 50cc plane is not cheap. Call me a tight wad if you will I know that everything moves forward, but it seems to me it's a rich mans game anymore if you want to compete and win. At my age I'll be unlikely to win anything major or even minor. I know this, but it is frustrating to compete knowing I can't afford the "good stuff".

EddieDean

My Feedback: (3)

Really enjoying reading this thread and it just occured to me that I've heard all this before. It was back in the 70's when someone showed up at a meet with a push button on his transmitter to do rolls.

NJRCFLYER2

My Feedback: (42)

Ans: Heck no. Scoring is done bysubtracting points from each figure based on what the rules say that the prescribed downgrades are for each observed defect. Anyone who does otherwse should disqualify themselves, and offer apologies to every pilot they ever cheated by not following the rules.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Ed, I agree that this is supposed to be what the judges do but the last contest I participated in I can honestly say it didn't really work that way. Two things I was told directly by the judges that stuck in my craw. First thing I was told " You are flying too slow." I designed my airplane to do just that! As a jugde of litterally a thousand IMAC rounds I appreciate when a pilot takes his time and presents each element of each manuever. The second thing I was told was " You arent stalling through your snaps ". When I got the judge and CD together to explain my 2 score on both my avalanche and 45 degree downline, the judge made the comment " I saw your snaps during your first round and said to myself that should have been a zero " Obviously he took that preconception to the chair with him for round 3. In the end both the judge and CD told me that the airplanes rotation was too slow stating that I need to do violent snaps " Like Jeskey" Mind you that the snap rotation was no slower then what I have done in IMAC scoring 8s and 9s in advanced.


So IMO the human factor does play a part. I do not think it is always intentional. In my case, I was a new face to the pattern scene( Although most of the guys do know me) with an semi scale scratch built airplane and jumping right into advanced. Like what we used to say in IMAC concerning the score sheet, " Sometimes it's Christmas, sometimes it's April 15 " Sometimes we get judged unfairly and sometimes we get something past the judges that they should have caught.

cmoulder

In that circumstance, observe the snaps of other competitors who are getting high scores for the maneuver and emulate their set-up for snap condition (or mode) and stick movements, starting with a Very quick blip of elevator.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Um...... yes Bob that did fix the snap issue. LOL After 13 years as an IMAC competitor I got used to doing them a certain way. 15 min after the conversation with the Judge and CD a snap condition was programmed into the TX that cut my elevator and rudder throw in half and maxed out my aileron. So yes now I am " Aileroning " my airplane through a snap roll like everyone else and the judge can kid himself into beleiving I am stalling through the manuver. I can't help but linking these manditory violent snaps and wing failures...........Things that make you go HMMMMMMMMMM

NJRCFLYER2

My Feedback: (42)

I was only responding to the concern about judging bias based on equipment.

You bring up other good points. At a minimum, when problems such as what you've described are brought to the CD's attention, he needs to set that judge straight before allowing him to judge another round.

cmoulder

Sounds like mine... about 6 deg el, 15 rudder, 22 ail and very little expo, or thereabouts. Quick as I can put the sticks in the corners and get them back with the Spark usually gets it done.

Won't know for sure until next Spring, however.

MTK

When the model is on step at distance, not many judges or pilots really see the colors. Possibly the kids do but the rest of us only see the silhouette and major contrast themes, usually in black and white, and that is what we judge or fly. As spectators though, many can see the colors, myself included. Such is the nature of brain overload.

But spectators don't scribble scores that count

MTK

6 degrees of elevator? That doesn't sound like enough to show a rapid pitch departure. Is the Spark a good enough plane design to actually pitch load the wing and then autorotate with 6 degrees?

To speedracer, the things top judges look for in snaps are very quick pitch followed with yaw and roll, and then a clean exit. Often the model displaces in pitch and yaw when a better snap is performed. I don't downgrade for slight displacement of about 1/2 to 1 wingspan. The speed of a snap is not a judging criterion, but unfortunately some folks mistakenly think that the faster one rolls the crate the better. These types tend to score better on average. That's the major reason wings on present pattern models have gotten as small as they have, to make the model turn into itself in the blink of an eye.

Personally, I prefer a slower snap, one which allows a little more time to see what happening. It is a matter of set-up

MTK

Well, snap rolls, the way we do them in IMAC and Pattern, are not fully stalled maneuvers. Airplanes are just too lightly loaded. If they were fully stalled, exits would be very very difficult to hit or predict. They are highly loaded, yes, and partially stalled on the yaw side. The other side is still flying, lifting.

The snap we fly is an aerobatic maneuver better described in full scale aerobatic circles as a flick roll

A true snap roll in full scale airplanes, not aerobatic, could ruin someone's day very quickly. Putting a bunch of extra weight on a typical 800 square inch and then slowing the crate down will do the same thing, ruin your day

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Matt, I 100% agree and will go on the record as saying that at any pattern or IMAC contest the top guys are not stalling in snaps or spin entries. I once described how I did spin entries with my 40% Extra online and was heavily flogged. What I stated was that I would slow the airplane that just before it would go into mush mode, I would let off the elevator and this would drop the nose but before the airplane would start flying again I would hit full rudder the direction I wanted it to break. Then I would come in with elevator and aileron. To the judges it looked as if the airplane had stalled. Back to snaps, if we actually stalled the airplane through the snap, it would go very deep into the snap and be very inconsistant. What I tended to do was demonstrate pitch deviation of about 10-15 degrees then come in with aileron and rudder. By about 1/2 rotation into the snap I would be completely off the elevator. I still feel that the snaps I did at the pattern contest fit the criteria but as I have told others, we are putting on a show for the judges. We need to figure out what they want and give it to them. Sometimes that may involve a little smoke and mirrors. In the end it dosent matter what we do with the sticks, as long as the judges see the airplane doing what they preceive to be the correct thing.

cmoulder

Matt, it might be a little more than 6 deg, but not much. It is significantly less than the 11 deg I run for "Normal" flight mode and 14 for "Spin." I have it set so that I can pull the stick most of the way down for the pitch, over to the corner for full aileron while quickly feeding in full rudder, back to neutral as quickly as I can move the sticks.

Maybe I need more, but at this point it looks pretty good (at least to Anthony R) and it isn't so severe that it will break the wings. That's why I say I will find out for sure next Spring.

I noticed that the wings of the new Arixtra design have a similar taper at the tip, but without the little step that the Spark has.

cmoulder

Seems that "style" also is a part of the calculus. I have read that the World's judges preferred a slower, more deliberate pace, versus the quick/crisp style of flying displayed by the American pilots.

jetpilotrich

Here is my video on the SUPER CESSNA...Enjoy!

http://youtu.be/4538U2-_vvA

learn2turn

I'd like to get into pattern but don't have the resources to put together a serveral $K ship. Heck, I have a 41" eFlight Leader as my best plane since my 48" Edge bought the farm in a mid-air two week ago.

But I don't think claiming will work. It's because it's not just the cost of the plane, it's all the effort to set it up. Would a plane that cost $1000 in components be fair to claim at $1000 when the person who set it up spent six months of hard and detailed work dialing it in?

I really think there is needs to be something where someone who want to spend $500-1000 can compete but claiming isn't it.

Maybe documenting retail value of all components other than batteries/fuel would do. Set a $1000 limit for Sportsman.

Airframe 400
servos 150
Motor 125
ESC 100
Rx 75
Prop 25
Misc 25
Total 900

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

Racing for pinks?

I can settle this once and for all: Get me the pink slip to DaveL's Bravo and I will prove to you that the best equipment will have minimal effect in the hands of a sub-par pilot.

Columbus Ron

For me it isn't about winning or losing it is about getting better. You know when you are getting better, you don't need a judge to tell you you're flying is improving. Get the best setup you can afford, practice a lot, go to contests, have fun and let the chips fall where they may. I'm not in it for the hardware. After all, once you get to the Masters of FAI level only the very best get the hardware the rest of us go home empty handed. Bottomline, we don't need to level the playing field. Look at NASCAR, they try to make all the cars the same but in the end the teams with the best drivers are always at or near the top. Same for pattern.

wildwillie3

I agree with Ron, I started Pattern with a Dazzler then a Spot-on 50 then up to Venus II. It might have been more challenging to do it that way but I never let it stop me from trying to be the best pilot that I could be. Learning to do the Pattern the right way, listening to the comments from the judges, taking their advise and trying to correct my mistakes. I just try to do better than I did the year before. All of the other stuff will fall where it may.

I have handed my radio to other pilot's asking them way my plane won't do what I'm trying to make it do. Only to watch them do it with my plane and be told "NOPE IT"S YOU"
(thanks Scott).

Bill