the pope

Hi there anzac , I think its the the Japanese way just pretend there is no problem ( there to honorable to admit theres a prob. ) ) and either update it later or let it disappear completely from existence . The OS fl70 and ultimate come to mind and their heavy fuel engines as well as others Im sure .

ALFIEV

Good to hear from a fellow ANZAC! Yeah, I thought they had moved on from that mode of operating. Well, we'll see ehhh?

Timbers

My Feedback: (3)

This sucks. I guess I'll try to have some fun with the plane until mine explodes. Glad you were able to land it without problems.

Does anyone know, out of the 4 people that have reported the broken cylinder, do all 4 of them have the Keleo ring installed? Any chance the ring is adding resonance, or putting some sort of strain onto the cylinder causing this?

marksp

My Feedback: (9)

FWIW, I've had discussions with Ray English, the engine engineer who offers the crankshaft bushing, intake plenum and polishing mods for the FG84R3 and FG33R3 engines and who reengineered and licensed the FG60R3 design modifications to Saito.

He shared that Saito in fact licensed the redesigned intake plenum which is much more effective at balanced fuel distribution, but they made the plenum too large for a 60 size engine. This results in too much fuel, which may contribute to crankcase pressure.

I have his FG60R3 mod which reduces plenum volume and a carb mod, both of which optimize fuel volume and distribution with the unexpected bonus of about 700 more RPM on the top end. I run mine on 15:1 Morgan Cool Power oil per his suggestions.

I aslo have the FG33R3 with full RE mods, also on 15:1 Morgan and no issues...yet.

I'm not suggesting this as the "fix" to the crankcase failures, but thought I'd share.

Cheers

scubaozy

How many flights (or hours of actual runtime excluding the bench run) do you have with above mods?

scubaozy

Keleo is a very good fit, I doubt that it would cause a problem. Stock flexi tubes are way more flimsy so I would imagine that they are more likely to resonate. There are also a lot of fg84 with Keleos flying around. Not heard of similar failure.
What I found interesting was couple of failure reports on fg20. I think fg60 has 3 times fg20 cylinder case. This looks very similar to mine.

marksp

My Feedback: (9)

Not a lot..certainly less than 3 hours total on my FG60R3. As I mentioned, just wanted to share 1 persons analysis of excessive fuel condition in FG60R3. Maybe related; maybe not.

Timbers

My Feedback: (3)

I have a Saito FG-21 which is the new version of the FG-20, I have almost 8 gallons through it. I did some math and thats somewhere in the 35-40 hours of run time range. So I bet I'm up there in flight time on that engine compared to others that are running it.

I wish Saito would just change the casting for these engines. The jug should be beefier, and it should have some bigger fins on it for better cooling. They seem to just be using the same casting that they did for their glow versions.

marksp

My Feedback: (9)

Right on!

johnhi

Hi all, sorry to add to the bad news but a second cylinder on my FG60 cracked this weekend during my second flight, lucky I managed to dead stick land okay. After repairing cylinder number 2 a few months back, now 10 flights later cylinder number 3 has now cracked exactly like before. I checked all the bolts and they were tight, so maybe it's a casting issue.

So that 2 cylinders that have cracked on mine now......... I have ordered a replacement cylinder already, my thinking that I've gone this far with the engine so I might as well keep going......... Thinking about it maybe I should have ordered 2 replacement cylinders and keep one for the next time.

ForcesR

Question: Before the # 2 cylinder head failure, did you have a "hydrolock" condition at any time during any engine start? If you did experience a hydrolock condition, how did you clear the hydrolock condition?

johnhi

there was no hydrolock during start, and the cylinder cracked during flight.

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

When you engineer something you design it for normal use and abuse. Cylinders should be designed such that they can withstand typical use situations. Hydrolock would cause other problems like loose props etc. Perhaps backfires as well..
I don't hear these issues being described just cracked cylinders.
There doesn't sound like enough material is in the base of the cylinder. OR the cylinder castings are having issues.
I bought one of these engines that has yet to be even started. I sure don't like to think I have a Lemon.

How does one contact Ray English?

scubaozy

Sorry to hear your misfortune johnhi. Once you commit to an engine, it is not easy to change to something else. I am also considering what to do next. My corsair is set up for this engine, it is a great hassle to change it to a 2 stroke. I have not heard this type of failures about fg 57 and it has been around a while. I might go that route..

ForcesR

Just in case you are not aware, the fg 57 is no longer in production, it's been replaced by the fg 61TS.

http://www.horizonhobby.com/product/...gine-saieg61ts

scubaozy

Thanks, I am aware. It is still possible to buy 57t and 57ts in many stores. I would rather go with something that has been tested. I think I did my share for Saito Rnd :-). Nevertheless, Johnhi is probably a better candidate for Saito employee of the month.

Reverend

My Feedback: (3)

*edited*

think first, type later... sorry.

aquaskiman

My Feedback: (46)

The only thing I can think of that can cause this type of failure is the rod angle is wrong, causing to much side thrust on the cylinder.

MDavis28

Skiman, I think your on to something there. I have had my FG-60 since July of last year, the only issues I have had was a bad ignition system, squeaky exhaust valve on no.1 cylinder and recently I had 3 of the 6 intake plenum bolts come out. I did take the plenum off and clean up the mating surfaces and gasket. I did sit and admire the master rod and sister rods as I rotated the crank. One thing I noticed was that when no.1 cylinder was at TDC so was the crank. But when either no.2 or 3 was at TDC the crank was either past TDC on that cylinder or just before it. I do know that on my engine the set screw on the front hub is also at TDC on the crank, I was using it as a reference when setting valve lash. I am now wondering if saito got it wrong on the master rod. Or did they compensate the weird (to me) geometry of the master rod with the magnet spacing or timing of the ignition. I guess to sum it up I wonder if pre-detonation is causing some these failures and or rod angle. If somebody has their engine apart that could possibly post some pics of the master rod, that would be great. I really do t want to tear mine down right now.
Just my .02

Zeeb

My Feedback: (41)

[email protected]

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

Thank you Zeeb.
By the way how much was the conversion for your FG 60?

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

I called Horizon today and spoke with them about the Failures with the FG60. I was told that they were unaware of any problems etc. I suggested that the person on the other end of the phone take a look here at this site to perhaps get an understanding of the problems. Then they can send them along to Saito.
I don't know if Saito is aware either?
In any event I was told that the engine has a Three year warranty.
At least that's good news.

radfordc

My Feedback: (14)

When I was deciding about whether to get this engine I chatted with the HH rep. I asked about the cylinder failures and was told he had not heard of any. Seems like they are sticking to their story!

I wonder how the engines that are breaking are getting repaired if HH isn't in on it?

Zeeb

My Feedback: (41)

I don't have a 60. Ray did my FG-84 and it was $500.00 plus $200.00 for the Keleo exhaust ring and another $35.00 for the multi bolt prop flange mount in a DA pattern.

scubaozy

Hi all, this issue is being discussed also in a German forum in detail. One gentlemen reported that in their region 2 out of 6 engines have the same failure and most of the good ones do not have a lot of run time. Another gentleman has shared the photos of the identical failure he had last year. All these cases were addressed by Saito service, so engines were repaired under warranty. Another person reported that he has been running the engine without issues for 20l or estimated 16-18hrs. I have sent mine back for repairs. If they are fixed by Saito service, for sure they must be aware of it.