RJConnet

I just heard that our piece of crap governor has signed into law that all gasoline sold in our state (Oregon) will be 10% ethanol. This guy is a technical illiterate and as dumb as dirt. Anyway, I know that a lot of you guys have been putting up with this fuel for a while now and know how to handle it. I was wondering if it will help to run the Carb. dry after each use to slow the deterioration of the rubberized components in the Carb. Also is a retuning of the needles reguired? Any and all comments will be appreciated in anticipation of this change-over. [][]............RJ

skiman762

Just take it out and fly away

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Get used to it since there's nothing you can do about it. Since our elected leaders found out that they can provide the farmers with a new place to dump off their federally subsidized crops and have someone else pay for it they ended up in pork barrel heaven. Worse is the enviornemental nuts have convinced themselves the stuff is ecologically friendly. But they complain about the gas a cow creates from eating the corn so figure that one out.

It'll burn ok but inspect rubber diaphragm components once a year to note any changes in wear.

pe reivers

Those cows produce a lot of methane that could be collected and burn in out IC engines [8D]
I do not know just how environmental friendly the ethanol production processes are. From what I have seen they are not. Yet it would be nice to run our machines off recycling carbohydrates, instead of using dynosaur reserves. That would provide IC engines with a new leash on life.
In WW2, when fuel was hard to come by, people used wood burning gas (like not fluid) generators to run their cars with. That was a pure example of immediate carbohydrate recycling! Not that environmental friendly either judging by the smoke these contraptions belched.

RJConnet

Pat,

I think you got it all right, here we are paying three times. One at the gas pump, two in our taxes paying those subsidies, and three in the increased prices of our food. I have a friend up in the state of Washington who farms several hundred acres of the most beautiful alfalfa you ever saw. He is now considering plowing under the alfalfa to grow corn like all his neighbors have done. He says almost daily he hears of a new ethanol plant in production.......RJ

altavillan

My Feedback: (1)

Actually the politicos and ex politicos own the ethanol producing plants. Much more fun when you get to decide how much you are going to buy and sell for. It's called the middle man.

As far as use in engines goes ethanol really is a good thing. Gas engines running on Ethanol will not have near as much internal wear as with petroleum. Petroleum is a very harsh, carbon based, carbon forming when burnt fuel, loaded with particles of dirt and other undesireables.

The draw back to Ethanol is it's propensity to absorb water as well as swell typical rubber based components like O rings and rubberized gaskets. Not really much of a problem at 10%.

Since you live in Oregon and if you live near the coast or where it rains a lot you might have to run some water dispersant oils into your engines if they will set for a while. Just like you would have to do with glow fuel engines.

altavillan

My Feedback: (1)

And welcome home "Big Spurt"

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

Most of us know by now that running high octane gas or av gas in our engines isn't needed. Some manufacturers spec it, but for the rest of the engines out there, conventional wisdom says you don't need higher octane. Our engines don't have enough compression to make good use of that higher octane fuel. It's wasted money and could lead to carbon.

While talking to one of the engine manufacturers last summer, I was told that the ethanol reduces the output of the fuel by a little. He told me to jump to the mid-grade gas and see if it made an improvement. It did help. I had been running the cheap, 85 octane fuel. I jumped to 87 octane and saw an improvement in power.

Am I recommending it? NO. You should probably do your own homework and not take my word for it. I am in a unique situation compared to most guys because I'm at high altitude. I don't know enough about fuel and ethanol to tell you WHY I picked up some RPMs. But out here at 6000' elevation with ethanol in our fuel --pretty much ALL the time-- it made a difference to jump up to the mid-grade stuff. I haven't tried the premium stuff yet. I got into gas engines because the fuel was cheap. Premium fuel is over $3/gallon. I ain't payin' that much. Not even for 2 gallons. [>:]

Wish I had the money for one of them high compression heads (G62) from DDM. THEN I could run a little avgas and REALLY twist the wood.

skiman762

your lucky, we pay 3.05 per gallon of the cheap stuff by the time I take the ethonal out it's more like 3.35 but that's life then you die so why worry about little stuff

JoeAirPort

My Feedback: (41)

It's a big scam that we are all stuck with. Nothing we can do but keep flying.

skiman762

I like mine in a frosty mug not the gas tank so I take it out and feed it to the worms

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

In my state, the low octane fuel is the mid-priced fuel and is usually about $.10 / gal. more than the ethanol mix due to lower taxes. Currently the Ethanol mix at my local station is $2.71 / gal ..... straight gas with 2 points lower octane is $2.83. The premium fuel can either have or not have ethanol in it .... but all blends are clearly labeled here unlike some states.

I run either of the lower priced fuels and can see no difference between them in my variety of engines. Zero carb problems. As pointed out before, other chemicals in our fuels can have greater effects on rubber parts than the ethanol does. Remember, when they reblend the gas for ethanol, the whole formula changes ... they don't just add ethanol.

Yes, I live in the country's largest corn producing state but NO ..... I don't really support its use either. The economics just do not add up and I firmly believe that one day, the ethanol producers will be in line for a baleout when they are no longer profitable. The trickle down from that will make the housing sub-prime issue pale by comparison!

bob_nj

My Feedback: (62)

Most of the rebuild kits these days have gaskets to deal with ethanol.
The blue and tan gaskets hold up well with alcohol.
Individual results may vary depending on your fuel pumping needs.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Rcpilet,

At least one engine manufacturer (3w) uses a rather high compression ratio in their products and benefit from a higher octane gas. I used to doubt that but much testing of different fuels has proven that it's true.

What you noted about moving up a grade level is a good idea for most of the engines but doesn't work out well for those already required to use a higher octane gas to obtain good performance out of a 3w. For those the addition of methanol/ethanol is a downgrade in octane level. If the ratio of ethanol in our gas contnues to increase I can see a day when the sales of specialized racing fuels is going to increase quite a bit if they aren't outlawed by then. Now that will be an expensive day.

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

Agreed. If you're already running an engine that requires high octane fuel--where can you go? If you're already using the premium fuel, there is no way to jump up. Around here, the 89 octane premium w/ethanol would probably be equivalent to your 87 octane at sea level.

My friend gets 104 octane for his drag racing car. The race track sells it. Last year it was $6/gallon. I'd love to put a high compression cylinder on a G62 and run a little of that fuel. Just for giggle factor. And trust me, I'd be giggling like a school girl at a tea party. Isn't that sick?

BTerry

My Feedback: (8)

Pat, welcome back!
Actually, ethanol has a higher resistance to autoignition than gasoline and thus has a higher octane rating (ROM+MON/2) of 116. Methanol is 113, and E85 (85% ethanol/15% gasoline) is 105.

RCPilet,
In general terms ethanol has less energy output per quantity than gasoline, but requires a richer mixture which CAN result in a slightly higher overall power output wit an increase in fuel burned. I experimented with E85 in a race car with some interesting results (allowed higher turbo or supercharger boost levels) but the efficiency was not a strength (mileage was lower).

Truckracer,
you are correct. The ironic thing about ethanol, at least in producing from corn, is manufacturing ethanol from corn is 30% less efficient than other methods (eg sugar cane) and also uses a great amount of water. Corn production (especially corn syrup) is a HUGE industry in the US. Also, gasoline manufacturers receive a US$0.51/gallon tax CREDIT (per gallon of gasoline produced) for using ethanol.

Brazil can produce ethanol for roughly US$0.80/gallon while ethanol produced from corn costs US$1.20/gallon. Why don't we import the cheaper ethanol from Brazil? There is a US$0.54/gallon TARIFF on the import of ethanol.

Why? Iowa grows corn and elects presidents...

Of course processing sugar cane requires burning the fields (burns leaves, kills snakes, fertilizes the ground, and "cokes" the sugar), so there is an increase in local air pollution.

It is a big screw job but I can't see any way to change it. I want to get in on the carbon credit trading scam too, make myself a billionaire and have more time to fly!

Brett

**edit** P.S. ZDZ requires higher octane fuel. The european instructions say 95 octane, which is 91 here in the US. DA recommends 87 ocho-tane.

BTerry

My Feedback: (8)

One more interesting point (to me anyway). A professor at the local university devised a way to extract a long carbon chain molecule to be used in the production of diesel fuel directly from a particular strain of algae. Somewhere near 55% of the mass of the algae is this molecule.

He theorizes all the diesel engines used in shipping in the US (tractor trailers and diesel-electric locomotives) could be generated in wastewater pools measuring 35 km^2, while the same amount of energy from corn-based ethanol would require corn fields the size of Europe.

Anyway, good thread. I will check my carb pump diaphragm from time to time and replace if necessary.

Walt and Sage

Man this whole thing is SICK !!!!!

If we plowed under ALL of the crops in this country and grew corn it would
only replace the INCREASE in oil for 3 years...

Then we can rely on OTHER countries to feed us...

REAL SMART.. but it is PC...

bentwings

Rcpilet ,
There already is a high compression G-62 cylinder for the G-62. There was a thread on testing this but it was a quite a while ago. I did contact the mfg. but I really did not get information that I was looking for.

http://www.davesmotors.com/store/product432.html

It sure seems like a 15:1 compression ratio would be a big improvement. With E-85 at 105+ rating and $2.30 per gallon it sure would seem like a win situation. I think $325 for the jug is reasonable. The early test as I recall showed 8000 rpm vs 7200 on the same prop. The HP/torq increase would seem to be huge. I don't think the jets would even need to be altered. You might have to do gaskets occasionally however.

I'm sure thinking of doing it on the new Corsair. My only concern is how reliably the motor is as far as idle and general operation.

There are quite a number of the streetrod guys that have gone to E-85 and generally they are happy with it in the high compression motors or blown motors.

As for 10% ethanol we don't see much if any difference here in Minn. We have had it for years. No problems even in the cold winter.

ryan@ddm

What info were you looking for?

bentwings

I called to get from the horse's mouth what the performance expectation might be. What I got was that it was better but not much. No specifics. No rpm tests or charts, no real help. I got the distinct feeling that the guy made these (nice job from the pictures) and is letting the market do his testing for him. I didn't get a good feeling that he really knew much about the R/C interest. He did say that the 15:1 would work fine on E-85 but that was as far as I got. I really don't think he really knew what E-85 is. They are much more into sidewalk scooters and small bikes. apparently the G-62 does well on these.

From this I guess I would just go off on my own and document anything I do good or bad. One thing right off is that the head cooling fins are perpendicular to the normal air flow. Make any difference??? Don't know. The other thing was I asked about compression releases and he really didn't know about them either. I got more info from the 2 stroke bike guys around here.

For the amount of $$$ involved I might just make my own conversion. The worse that could happen is that I might have to make a few heads to get the chamber right. Yeah there would be some expense involved but it would be an interesting project.

ryan@ddm

I guess it's not as clear since I removed my avatar - I am one of the owners of the shop you called. Not sure which employee you may have spoken with, but perhaps I can provide you with more info.

We are not the manufacturer - the manufacturer is a gentleman by the name of Trevor Simpson. However, we are the largest retailer of his products. He has billet heads in similar styles for many other RC engines besides the G62. They were initially used in scooter applications, but have since seen an explosion of interest in the RC area.

These billet heads will offer a significant performance increase over stock. View this thread:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_41...tm.htm#4171870
for some real-world details.

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

Thats what I was talking about when I mentioned the higher compression cylinder. I'm going to do it someday. Just don't have the $$ right now. I've been laid off since October 12th and it ain't lookin' good. Been trying to get a job in my industry (HVAC), but things are pretty slow right now. Nobody is looking for a Project Manager, Estimator or Salesman right now. I did apply for a job working on UAVs. We'll see how it pans out. That would be SWEET!!!

I had a G62 on a tuned pipe a couple years ago, but never flew it. I couldn't figure out how to install it without hacking the snot out of my plane. At that time-- custom headers and curved pipes for the Zenoah was only a wet dream. All we had was the standard 90* bend. Now that we can get CF pipes and custom bent header pipes, I may try it again some day. I know that a pipe REALLY wakes these engines up. I'm not sure the crank, rod, bearings could take a high compression head and a pipe with 104 octane fuel. I'm positive it would reduce the lifespan of the engine quite a bit. But wouldn't it be fun?!? [X(]

Interesting factoids about the power of ethanol. I did richen my engine when it picked up RPMs. But I just thought it was because of the higher octane--more actual gas and less ethanol--or so I thought. Still not sure why it worked. I just know it did give me a few more RPM.

bentwings

Ryan,
Thanks for the hit. I surely would like to discuss the conversion further. It's nice that you came back and let us know you are available. I'm an old hot rodder so I well understand hop up stuff.

I didn't mean any discourtesy but only reported my personal feelings in request for information.

I'm just going out the door for the day but I'll try and call tomorrrow if you would pm me with a phone number.

thanks

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Chris,

I already thought you were a sick puppy anyway