Glow Engines Discuss RC glow engines

Large glow engines - are they passing away?

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Old 12-16-2013, 10:58 AM
  #26
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May not be a hazmat fee for nitro. Conisdered safer than methanol despite Agnus worring about explosions.
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1QwkSport2.5r View Post
Keep in mind that glow engines burn almost twice as much fuel as gasoline engines so even if the per gallon price is the same, the glow engine will use more fuel than a gasoline engine will. However, gasoline engines stink. Glow engines smell much better IMHO. Or really any engines that run glow fuel for that matter.
Well fuel air ratio is half as much for methanol, meaning about twice as much fuel to air. But then the displacement is changed so there is actually less air being induced in the engine and to a lesser factor the fuel as well. Now consider that you will need about 30 to 50% more displacement, and thus more gas to have the same power and the difference is not nearly twice as much fuel used. But if using nitro it will be twice as much or more.
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerfix View Post
With the price of glow fuel, I am having second thoughts every time I want to take my Skillful for a go. It has an OS 120AX on it and a 600cc tank. So - 8-9 flights and I am out of a gallon of 10% glow fuel which, locally, is about $30.

People here seem to be migrating away from glow - to gas on the higher end and to electrics on the low and now middle end.

M
Me too. I migrated to gasoline going on 5 years now, and it's for keeps. I run mostly 30-60cc gassies. And my OS GT33 outperforms practically any glow engine in the 120 to 180 size. I'm running this engine where the Webra160 used to run. Gas engines in this size have come of age. The only "big block" glow engine I would consider is the yet to be released YS200 4 stroke.

But I have a couple small glow engines in the 0.4- 0.6 cuin area. Hard to beat their power with a gas engine in this displacement; just can't stuff enough oxygen in the really little gassies to make then perform. On rare occasions I also play with small electrics but I think I'm going to stop that. I just don't fly small electrics enough to keep the batteries in decent shape soo they die on the bench, so to speak. Except for the single cell ones such as the Night Vapor that my grandson loves to play with
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Old 12-16-2013, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot View Post
The EPA didn't close anything. Angnus is still makeing nitro in the US. They have an aversion of selling pure nitro to anybody they don't know are handling it properly because there is a very remote chance it can explode. No matter there has only been one known explosion of pure nitromethane reported a rail car I believe. They will no longer sell pure nitro to drag racers and will only sell for RC use when blended with 50% methanol. Drag racers and fuel blenders want 100% nitro so they buy from China.
I think that the NHRA still has the hated domestic, single source policy for nitro. Before the rule change a few years ago teams could buy from any source.
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Old 12-16-2013, 12:39 PM
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I think one thing your missing is the fact gas - non glow motors rock becouse when I stop at the gas station and fill my truck and ny 2 gallon fuel can the wife is none the wiser ! Vs nitro that comes out my rc budget
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Old 12-16-2013, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot View Post
Well fuel air ratio is half as much for methanol, meaning about twice as much fuel to air. But then the displacement is changed so there is actually less air being induced in the engine and to a lesser factor the fuel as well. Now consider that you will need about 30 to 50% more displacement, and thus more gas to have the same power and the difference is not nearly twice as much fuel used. But if using nitro it will be twice as much or more.
W/GI compared to gas versions of the same displacement in Saito 4-strokes, there is about a 15% power advantage for GI. When CDI/glow fuel is employed, the advantage is increased to about 20-25%.

At the correct A/F ratios methanol has 27% more energy available than gasoline.

Methanol also allows the use of higher compression & allows/requires more ignition spark advance. My modified (12.8:1 CR) high compression FA180HC makes 3.4HP on CDI/glow fuel while the gas version FG30 only makes 2.4HP. That's a 42% HP advantage for a properly tuned CDI engine burning methanol. That level of tuning could never be reached W/gasoline as 9.5:1 is about it for CR W/gasoline & the spark advance is all in @ 28 BTDC while methanol works best @ about 36 BTDC.

Another advantage of glow fuels W/CDI is that more nitro will allow even more HP. Upping the nitro to 30% while reducing oil to 8% upped power output in my modified FA180 to 4HP, a 66% increase over the 2.4HP of the FG30.

Last edited by SrTelemaster150; 12-16-2013 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:06 PM
  #32
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Another thing for the "gasser" fans to consider is that all 2-stroke engines are becoming a thing of the past due to enviornmental regulations.Snow Mobile, dirt bikes, outboard motors & now string trimmers are all going 4-stroke. Soon it will be chain saws & R/C powerplants. It will be hard for gas burning 4-strokes to meet HP/weight requirements for R/C aircraft in an economical package.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by on_your_six View Post
There is just no way that the hobby is nearly as cool when you are flying coffee cups with fan motors and flashlight batteries.

Internal Combustion is the only way to go.
Just what does "coffee cups" mean?
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgburrill View Post
Just what does "coffee cups" mean?
I think he means "foamies".
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:29 PM
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That sounds about right. I gave a range because some gas engines are just low powered conversions of weed-wacker and chain saw engines. But others are more refined and more powerfull for the same size.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:06 PM
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I am in the process of converting some gas engines to either glow, or CDI methanol since I despise the smell of gas on my hands. If I could run race gas, maybe a different story...
I love the smell of methanol and nitro! To me, the ONLY real downside is the need for truly fuelproof paint which is costly! Other than that, I find no faults with alcohol. Maybe if I flew 5 time a day at 32oz a flight, 4-5 times a week, I would look at the economy of gas, but I don't fly that often so alky it is!

Now I will caveat this with an engine size. Trying to feed a 100cc twin with alcohol may break the bank and also when you are hauling up half a gallon of fuel a flight, the performance gain may reach a point of no returns due to the added fuel weight.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffH View Post
I am in the process of converting some gas engines to either glow, or CDI methanol since I despise the smell of gas on my hands. .
Funny you should mention that as Saito has discontinued almost all of there large multi-cylinder glow engines.

While I hate glow plugs, I am a proponent of CDI/methanol conversions. CDI W/methanol/nitro will gain you 20-25% power over gas W/O most of the drawbacks of GI. (glow ignition) It will produce slightly more power than a full GI conversion & use 20% less fuel doing it. The idlle, starting & overall user freindliness of "gas" will still be there.

Whereas I used to purchase Saito glow engines & convert them to CDI/glow fuel W/CH Igntions CDI conversions., it looks like I'll have to pay their hi-way robbery prices for FG "gas" engines & convert them to methanol use W/glow fuel carburetors.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:51 PM
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SrT - why not hunt around for used ones and refurb them? That would probably involve more work in case the engine was abused but something like that would probably not be abused too badly. That way you're not paying 'New' prices.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1QwkSport2.5r View Post
SrT - why not hunt around for used ones and refurb them? That would probably involve more work in case the engine was abused but something like that would probably not be abused too badly. That way you're not paying 'New' prices.
Yeah that's probably going to be the best route. I did that W/my FA450R3D, but it was a mess inside. Fortunately the seller worked W/me as I was wanting to go W/180 pots anyway.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffH View Post
I am in the process of converting some gas engines to either glow, or CDI methanol since I despise the smell of gas on my hands. If I could run race gas, maybe a different story...
I love the smell of methanol and nitro! To me, the ONLY real downside is the need for truly fuelproof paint which is costly! Other than that, I find no faults with alcohol. Maybe if I flew 5 time a day at 32oz a flight, 4-5 times a week, I would look at the economy of gas, but I don't fly that often so alky it is!
If/when you convert to CDI/methanol, bear in mind that you need to dial in about 8 more ignition advance from what gasoline runs. 34-36 BTDC is a good place to start when tuning for CDI/methanol.
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:18 PM
  #41
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Man I still need a Nitro Fix !
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:34 PM
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JEFFH,

Me too I hate the stench of autogas. I use Avgas 100LL mixed 50:1 with my favorite oil. There is no smell to speak of and the transparent blue appearance is outstanding. Avgas has key advantages over autogas and a few important disadvantages.

Storage is practically years with no break down. Smell is terrific. Burns exceedingly clean. I use it because of these key factors; they are important to me

You have to buy it at the local regional airport tho, not the corner station. It's about 50% more expensive than autogas so at current auto gas prices of around 3.25$, expect to pay about 4.75 a gallon for Avgas. Still a far cry from glow tho. Plus you use much less gas than glow per minute, same displacement and rpm
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:55 PM
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To each their own. That's why this is called a hobby. I was burning 3/4 of a gallon of nitro in 2 trips to flying field. Now one gallon of gas will last me 2 months. And im sure that their are ways to boost nitro to improve the power, but for the average person. Gassers have more power and lower end torque. I have instant power to pull out of a bad hover and I could not do that with nitro. dle 20- sig mayhem, dle 30 giant ultra stick, da 50 25% 330s 3d. Gassers for me!


Wind Therapy 4 Me
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:47 PM
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I have been flying for about 2 years now and have pricing engines, gasoline is obviously cheaper than glow fuel. Engines up to .60 size is a little cheaper than gas engines but when you get above .60 its gas all the way. I wont even go into what 4 strokes run, insane.
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:53 PM
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There's nothing like the smell of nitro in the morning......
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Old 12-16-2013, 07:43 PM
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One other real nice thing about gas engines is the finishing work, I like to build planes that were fabric covered like old time WW1 and vintage stuff.. you can just buy dirt cheap acrylic paint at the craft stores, and clear over it with Rustoleam... I painted and sealed a 1/3 Pup for about 30 dollars. The exhaust from the gas engine doesn't hurt the paint a bit. In fact I leave it on just to look scale..

I painted a few planes for friends in the past with stuff like that Perfect Paint.. WOW, you wouldn't want a cloud of those fumes in your house..

Right now is the glory days for prices on the glow motors for sure..those that love them I hope are stocking up.
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1QwkSport2.5r View Post
I couldn't agree more. +1
On your six said it well. +1.
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SrTelemaster150 View Post
Not wanting to get an argument started here but CDI reduces the (glow) fuel consumption considerably. For those that want to do that, the discontinuance of almost all of Saito's large multi-cylinder Glow engines is a disaster.

The "gas" craze is typical of the American market. So many will change when in reality, when all factors are considered, it's not that big of an improvement.
I used to run a 650cc tank when i was using a YS DZ160 in my patternship. I'm now running the YS DZ175cdi and using a 330cc tank for the same flight time, but way more power. I mix my own fuel so the cost is less than half than buying from the hobby shop.

The guys using electrics in pattern are buying generators for charging their large packs. So you then have the cost of a generator, gas for the generator and having to cart it around.

I love the big glow engines. I have 3 Super Tigre 45cc engines. Pulls a 1/3 scale Pitts around no worries.

I agree 1QwkSport2.5r, the smell of a glow engine is pleasant. Not like gas which does stink. I have large gas planes, but i need a trailer for transport so the smell isn't in my car.
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SrTelemaster150 View Post
Not wanting to get an argument started here but CDI reduces the (glow) fuel consumption considerably. For those that want to do that, the discontinuance of almost all of Saito's large multi-cylinder Glow engines is a disaster.

The "gas" craze is typical of the American market. So many will change when in reality, when all factors are considered, it's not that big of an improvement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1QwkSport2.5r View Post
I buy pure nitro for $55/gal with free shipping. How the free shipping, I don't know. Last gallon I got through Amazon believe it or not. Redeemed points and got it 40% off to boot. So just because it's imported doesn't mean you can't get it at a semi-reasonable price.
That's about the same price i buy mine for here in Australia.
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Old 12-16-2013, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SrTelemaster150 View Post
Not wanting to get an argument started here but CDI reduces the (glow) fuel consumption considerably. For those that want to do that, the discontinuance of almost all of Saito's large multi-cylinder Glow engines is a disaster.

The "gas" craze is typical of the American market. So many will change when in reality, when all factors are considered, it's not that big of an improvement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aspeed View Post
$13 a gallon (small US size one) Ritches Brew at Toledo. I pick up what I need for the year when I go there. I seldom go through a gallon a year. I have been playing more with my Sig Wonder lately than the bigger stuff. I think the smaller stuff is going away more so than the bigger ones. By the time you hook up your trailer on to the the pickup, assemble the plane with a bit of help, tie it down, get everything checked out.... The price of fuel is negligible. I am 15 minutes to my field and spend more on gas for the van than I would on fuel for a plane. Mixing methanol and oil on a bigger motor takes less oil than say a .46. The oil is the expensive part (and nitro) There is also a weight savings over gas. Gas is really taking over though, even with the extra batteries, regulators etc. I don't think money for fuel is the only reason big glows are thinning out. I see a lot of planes worth more than any of my cars being pulled by diesel trucks and trailers that are worth as much as a house.
Do you mean gas is heavier than methanol/nitro, or did i read it wrong?

Correct me if i'm wrong. I think methanol is approx. 10% heavier than gas and nitro is approx. 20% heavier than methanol. Given that you require more methanol than gas for the same flight times, take off weight would be considerably more than with gas depending on nitro %.
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