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  1. #23351
    Fred L's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    i have had several full scale pilots tell me that AV gas leaves alot of ash, i have used both AV gas and 93 oct pump gas and have seen no difference in performance. i always thought it was due to the low compression (9:1) of rc gas engines. correct me if i'm wrong, i live right next door to an airport and don't mind paying $5.50/gal, i just don't wanna hurt an expensive engine for a little more push. i have no use for the lead, the oil i use is Lucas semi-synthetic 2-stroke, it also has fuel stabilizers in it. there's no replacement for displacement, if the engine on my plane doesn't quit do it for me, i get one bigger engine. i run saito/ys 20/20 fuel in all my saitos, even though i mostly fly 3d, i do not push an engine by running hotter fuel.

  2. #23352
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

    How do you install the magnet in the prop hub? Purchase that along with the ignition?

    The beauty of the C&H systems is that the hall sensor is mounted fixed on the cam housing while the magnet is in an infinately adjustable magnet ring that afixes to the prop hub.

    So much easier to set up & adjust.

    Here is a thread I posted about CONVERTING MY FA91S TO C&H CDI.

    An FA100 uses the same prop hub ring as an FA91S & the hall sensor mount for the FA300 fits the high case cam housing of the Fa100.

    You should be able to get an entire system including a spark plug from C&H for about $125. Before you convert to gasoline, you might want to try just running CDI W/glow fuel. It will give you impressive fuel savings, (about 25%) much better handling chatacteristics & a power boost.

    You will gain about 5%-6% more power W/CDI/glow fuel, while CDI/gasoline will result in about a 15% loss in power. over the standard glow ignition engine.

    If you peruse Saito's power ratings, the FG engines put out about 15% less HP than their glow counterparts. (FA220 = 3.5 HP, FG36 = 3.0 HP) That is why Saito is increasing the displacement of the muti-cylinder FG series of engines over the FA versions. (50cc FA300, increased to 57cc FG57)

    The power advantage of CDI/glow is 21% more power than CDI/gasoline for the same displacement engine.

    The C&H WEBSITE does not list a conversion for the smaller Saioto engines, but if you call Adrian he will get back to you & set you up W/what you need.

    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41 - 1/3 Spacewalker

  3. #23353
    Cougar429's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    How does switching to EI affect the nitro content requirements?
    Club Saito Member # 787
    FA91, 100, 2 X 125a, 150

  4. #23354
    Moderator Hobbsy's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Fred, I don't see how a slow burning fuel like AV gas would be an advantage in an RC engine. I see the advantage in a slow running full scale engine @ 2,750 with the cylinder head temp at the top of the green.At 9,000 to 10,500 the faster burning 87 octane would be an advantage in the Saitos.
    Farmall 240 the final issue of the Farmall C, Super C, 200, 230 series.
    122 Cu. In. 22 hp. A small tractor that would do big work due to its 10x36 inch rear tires.

    As competition improves products, the differences between them get smaller and smaller

    Club Saito member #5

  5. #23355
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: Cougar429

    How does switching to EI affect the nitro content requirements?

    It eliminates the need for nitro.
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41 - 1/3 Spacewalker

  6. #23356
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

    Fred, I don't see how a slow burning fuel like AV gas would be an advantage in an RC engine. I see the advantage in a slow running full scale engine @ 2,750 with the cylinder head temp at the top of the green.At 9,000 to 10,500 the faster burning 87 octane would be an advantage in the Saitos.
    X2 ^^^^^

    Contrary to what some believe, higher octane does not = more power. All it does is slow the flame propagatioin.

    Higher octane permits an engine to take advantage of a higher compression ratio and/or a more aggressive spark advance & it reduces detonation tendencies @ higher cylinder head/combustion chamber temperatures.

    In a low compresion engine, or even a moderate CR, higher octane will reduce power.

    I leaned this 1st hand drag racing my highly (street) modified 5.7 Hemi powered 2006 Dodge Charger. The 1st time I tried 110 octane racing fuel, my 60' times climbed by .2 of a second. The engine felt strong @ the top of the RPM range, but it was a real dog out of the hole. Never revisited the racing fuel after that. The 10.4:1 CR just could not take advantage of that much octane.
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41 - 1/3 Spacewalker

  7. #23357
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Totaly agree from what I have read in magazine tests and the use of racing gas at the track in my Trans Am.

    Bob
    Bob
    Fleet Brotherhood #1, Club Saito #800

  8. #23358
    Moderator blw's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Let's get back to glow fuel Saitos.......
    The ultimate responsibility of pilots is to fulfill the dreams of the countless millions who can only stare skyward...and wish.

    "It doesn't take but one Auburn man to be a majority" -Coach Pat Dye

  9. #23359
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Great post on converting using the the C&H ignitions SrTelemaster. I will definitely be referring to that. One thing that bothers me about using CDI with glow fuel is that I would still have the mess and clean up associated with the glow fuel. The power increase and better fuel consumption is most interesting, amazing really.

    If converting from glow to gasoline we still need to run a totally different carb though, right? That seems to make the conversion more complicated and expensive.

    Thanks, Ernie

  10. #23360
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

    Great post on converting using the the C&H ignitions SrTelemaster. I will definitely be referring to that. One thing that bothers me about using CDI with glow fuel is that I would still have the mess and clean up associated with the glow fuel. The power increase and better fuel consumption is most interesting, amazing really.

    If converting from glow to gasoline we still need to run a totally different carb though, right? That seems to make the conversion more complicated and expensive.

    Thanks, Ernie

    C&H has a gas carb/manifold for the 120/150/180 series listed on the site for $65. I'm not sure if he has something for the smaller engines. You would have to call Adrian.

    As far as the mess from glow fuel? Since the fuel volume is reduced by 20% (25% increase in run time = a 20% decrease in consumpsion) the mess is reduced some.

    I have been experimenting W/inlet outlet check valves on THIS THREAD.

    Since fresh oil is being pulled through the engine constatly, I wonder how much the oil content could be reduced?
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41 - 1/3 Spacewalker

  11. #23361
    Moderator Hobbsy's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    I marvel every time I see people fuss about the oil on the plane. That oil is the very life blood of the engines internals. I have been wiping oil from planes since 1956 when I built my first profile F-86 and mounted a McCoy .36. I was 14 then and 70 now and its just part of enjoying model flight.
    Farmall 240 the final issue of the Farmall C, Super C, 200, 230 series.
    122 Cu. In. 22 hp. A small tractor that would do big work due to its 10x36 inch rear tires.

    As competition improves products, the differences between them get smaller and smaller

    Club Saito member #5

  12. #23362

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Re: The oil on the planes.... Gentlemen: The smell of the castor oil is great....and the cleaning up of the plane is not such a big deal. I keep some windex in my field box and a rag.....and on rare occasions, I take the plane upstairs to the kitchen and put it nose down in the sink and really scrub it down....no big deal. Some people like to use synthetic oil thinking it will make the plane cleaner after running the engine. My experience with synthetic oils is that it makes the engine run hotter and decreases the life of the engine. I have engines that are decades old and run on castor or castor blends that still have plenty of get up and go. And just think when you run an engine with castor and it gets on you, you might absord a bit of it. I've never known a modeler who used castor oil in their fuel that was ever constipated.......................
    Frank Schwartz AMA123
    building and flying for 76 of my 86 years....87 next month.....happiness is building and flying model airplanes..................
    Frank Schwartz

  13. #23363

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Besides, we are talking about 4-stroke engines here. That's nowhere near as slimy as 2-strokes. I have a gasser that still spits out soot on the leading edges of the wing and tail. Big deal!!!
    Content, but not Complacent.

  14. #23364
    Moderator Hobbsy's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Good show Frank, there is hope for me in all this RC madness and at 70 I still ride my Harley.
    Farmall 240 the final issue of the Farmall C, Super C, 200, 230 series.
    122 Cu. In. 22 hp. A small tractor that would do big work due to its 10x36 inch rear tires.

    As competition improves products, the differences between them get smaller and smaller

    Club Saito member #5

  15. #23365
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    I use Formula 409 to cut the really bad build-up from a long day flying followed up by the Windex. The 409 just seems to cut through the large build up faster, but it leaves streaks. The Windex gives a nice "polish".

    Besides, the after flight cleanup is a good time to thoroughly inspect the airframe. I have found many small problems that way before they became big ones.
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41 - 1/3 Spacewalker

  16. #23366

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

    ORIGINAL: rowdyjoe


    I have to disagree concerning stainless firearms barrels and chambers. I've had a few and still have one. Chrome is the cure for chamber and barrel errosion and better functioning. Stainless is more pourous, traps more crud, and requires more thorough cleaning IMO. However, it is better for corrosion prevention but, not as accurate as a chrome lined bore and chamber. On this issue I have 20 yrs experience as a military firearms specialist.

    RJ
    I too prefer CM steel barrels, but many benchrest shooters swear by SS. They assert that the SS barrels last longer (accuracy) in their particular application.
    Sr. Tele,
    That's probably true when comparing CM to stainless but, I'm refering to CM barrels that have been chromed lined. I can recall changing M-16 barrels (used in training) with over 100k rounds through them and they were still holding sub 4" groups. A fresh barrel would hold 1" or less if properly installed (and the shooter was capable). Surprising for a mil spec rifle at that time. Not benchrest accuracy but, certainly more than acceptable.
    It's been 28 yrs but, Ican still recall the detailed records we had to keep on our equipment. The initial CMbarrels were good for about 40k to 60k rds and malfunctions were moderate (compared to others rifles). The chrome lined barrels virtually eliminated malfunctions due to carbon build up and accuracy and durability improved greatly. They still required cleaning but, it was much easier to do so.

    After recalling this, I guess I should have ordered the chromed bearings but, I'm sure the stainless will out last the airplane and me.
    Iwonder if anyone has done a longevity comparison between bearing alloys? It would be interesting to see how they perform. There's a lot of data around concerning hardness, etc. but, a good head-to-head real world test would very informative I think. Wonder if the engine manufacturers have any data on this issue?


    Rowdyjoe
    Saito 783
    (FA-80, FA-80GK, FA-91S)
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    Ft. Worth Thunderbirds

  17. #23367
    Moderator blw's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Dave, do you have a drip pan for the Harley?

    I use a very good quality wax on models. I just got 2 bottles of Liquid Lustre yesterday if anyone remembers that wax. Any oil wipes off quick and easy if you keep somw wax on the covering. I don't use any cleaners. Bug stains come off easily with a soapy rag.

    A glow Saito doesn't really look good until castor begins to cook on it.
    The ultimate responsibility of pilots is to fulfill the dreams of the countless millions who can only stare skyward...and wish.

    "It doesn't take but one Auburn man to be a majority" -Coach Pat Dye

  18. #23368
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: rowdyjoe


    ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

    ORIGINAL: rowdyjoe


    I have to disagree concerning stainless firearms barrels and chambers.Â* I've had a few and still have one.Â* Chrome is the cure for chamber and barrel errosion and better functioning.Â* Stainless is more pourous, traps more crud, and requires more thorough cleaning IMO.Â* However, it is better for corrosion prevention but, not as accurate as a chrome lined bore and chamber.Â* On this issue I have 20 yrs experience as a military firearms specialist.

    RJ
    I too prefer CM steel barrels, but many benchrest shooters swear by SS. They assert that the SS barrels last longer (accuracy) in their particular application.
    Sr. Tele,
    Â*Â*Â*Â* That's probably true when comparing CM to stainless but, I'm refering to CM barrels that have been chromed lined.Â* I can recall changing M-16 barrels (used in training) with over 100k rounds through them and they were still holding sub 4'' groups.Â* A fresh barrel would hold 1'' or less if properly installed (and the shooter was capable).Â* Surprising for a mil spec rifle at that time.Â* Not benchrest accuracy but, certainly more than acceptable.
    Â*Â*Â*Â* It's been 28 yrs but, IÂ*can still recall the detailed records we had to keep on our equipment.Â* The initial CMÂ*barrels were good for about 40k to 60k rds and malfunctions were moderate (compared to others rifles).Â* The chrome lined barrels virtually eliminated malfunctions due to carbon build up and accuracy and durability improved greatly.Â* They still required cleaning but, it was much easier to do so.

    Â*Â*Â* After recalling this, I guess I should have ordered the chromed bearings but, I'm sure the stainless will out last the airplane and me.Â* Â* Â*Â*Â*
    IÂ*wonder if anyone has done a longevity comparison between bearing alloys?Â* It would be interesting to see how they perform.Â* There's a lot of data around concerning hardness, etc. but, a good head-to-head real world test would very informative I think.Â* Wonder if the engine manufacturers have any data on this issue?


    Well since SS has a chrome component, it might be that chrome lined CM is the best of both worlds. CM for hardness/precise machining W/the chrome to resist errosion/corrosion W/O the sofness/poor machinability of pure SS.

    In out engines, the corrosion resistance of the SS bearings will probably equate to longer life over carbon steel.
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41 - 1/3 Spacewalker

  19. #23369
    Moderator Hobbsy's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Nope, Harley's haven't needed anything like that since about 1983 when AMF took a hike. Note clean floor, the plywood is oily from changing the oil filter.

    The fire hose nozzle muffler that came on my 1.50 was very ugly with castor for a long time. The cast muffler and then the TurboHeader that replaced have not gotten uglied up yet and probably won't since I'm a user of Teflon Plumbers Tape.
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    Farmall 240 the final issue of the Farmall C, Super C, 200, 230 series.
    122 Cu. In. 22 hp. A small tractor that would do big work due to its 10x36 inch rear tires.

    As competition improves products, the differences between them get smaller and smaller

    Club Saito member #5

  20. #23370
    Old Fart's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Yup,and i really like that bronze colour they go too.

    Congratulations frank and agree with your comments.I once put a couple of drops of castor oil into my beer just to see if it would affect the taste...testing purposes only of course
    Watch out for the ground eh?

  21. #23371
    Moderator blw's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Sometimes, real engines need them.

    Leaking/weeping/seeping front bearings never bother me.
    The ultimate responsibility of pilots is to fulfill the dreams of the countless millions who can only stare skyward...and wish.

    "It doesn't take but one Auburn man to be a majority" -Coach Pat Dye

  22. #23372
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Oh come on man, the cleaning as many people has pointed out, is part of the joy of a day in the field.
    I keep a mixture of alcohol, windex and dish washer in my box and chat with my buddies while cleaning and checking my planes for problems.
    If you don't like to clean, get electrics for the field and a maid for home[:'(]
    Keep your wings level
    Club Saito Member #693

  23. #23373
    Moderator blw's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    +1
    The ultimate responsibility of pilots is to fulfill the dreams of the countless millions who can only stare skyward...and wish.

    "It doesn't take but one Auburn man to be a majority" -Coach Pat Dye

  24. #23374

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Saitos are the best four cycle engines out there. The only beef I have is the bearings. I replace mine with Boca Bearings ceramic lite. They last for years.
    YS they run strong for a season ! That's all ya get. Pump issues

  25. #23375
    Fred L's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ok, how do i remove the prop hub? gonna put some new bearings in my 91 saito and i've reached a stopping point. heated the prop hub only with a torch and no go, do i have to get a puller of some sort and what's the best one to mate up with the hub? I was told to put the case with the crank in the oven at 350 degrees for 30 minutes and she'll drop right out.


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