Leroy Gardner

You don't have alot of time to work on it but when you do you get things done, nice job on the leading edge, nice to get the time consuming stuff done.

Leroy

Melchizedek

Thanks Leroy for the kind words.

After seeing your paint scheme, its gotten me thinking.
What in the world is my scheme going to be.
Not really interested in the stock scheme but lack creativity in this area.
Lots of looking around to be done. Maybe one out there that will excite me.
Needless to say, Lots of time to think about it.

Kevin

Melchizedek

Spent an hour in the shop and got a little done.
I never found that 1/4 router bit. It went to Balloonia.
If your not familiar with Balloonia, let me explain.

When my daughters were very small one of the books I read to them referenced Balloonia.
Balloonia is where balloons go when a small child lets go of a helium balloon (as all kids will) Kites in strong winds too!
So when anything got lost around my house, it went to Balloonia.
There is a substantial amount of wealth in Balloonia. It is where the IMF gets all that money to loan nations.
I digress.

I cut the excess balsa from the bottom of the wing, trailing edge spar to make room for the aileron shroud.
If you are interested refer to post 71 on how I went about it.
If you look close at first pic you can see to top wing shroud detail.



Then I glued the trailing edge sheeting down.





Kevin

Leroy Gardner

Kevin you have an intresting approach to the way your doing the ailerons, I would have thought that the trailing edge of wing and leading edge of aileron would have a 1/8" or 1/4" face on them before the tri stock was installed to complete the round out but I guess you know what your doing. I hope you add some more meat to the blocks, not much holding them now. I may be a bit ahead of you on what your doing, I find your work intresting and very clean.

In reguard to your comments about paint schemes I pretty much went through the same thing. You can Google vintage planes and sport planes like I did and maybe come up with Ideas that will help you come up with your own. Really' thought inducement is a spark plug for creativity, just need a boost to get going. Like you said, you have plenty of time to think about the finish through out the build.

Leroy

VincentJ

Impressive work Kevin, everything looks clean and straight. When I move I have to make the change to a magnetic build table like yours. Leroy's comment about being a bit ahead of you is one of experience. Building a model different from the stock plans involves thinking two or three steps ahead, much like a game of chess. Keep up the good work!

Leroy Gardner

Kevin I see some things about what your doing that suggests your going about some of it all wrong. Whatever you have on your mind may work but there is a right way to do what your doing. Like Vincent said, when you alter or modify from the plans you have to replan what your going to do with proven methods from other designs such as the Mustang and others useing rotating control surfaces.

Pictures I'm posting are food for thought and show the proper way of doing this kind of structure. I'm just trying to save you the grief of doing it wrong. You show your very good building skills but lack of experience is mans worst enemy and I'm just trying to help you so please don't take any offence with my butting in.

When I do this I make and drill hinge holes in the mating surfaces before they even go on the build.

Leroy

Melchizedek

Hi Leroy

I take no offense and you are not butting in. I very much appreciate your interest and concern.
If I can be saved some grief than I say Save Away

I think and hope I am emulating what you have happening in your example.

If you look at first pic at the bisecting line from aileron trailing edge through airfoil.
That is the centerline of my hinge blocks. The small hole is the robart hinge pin location.
The hinge block on the ailerons start about 3/32 back from hinge pin.
The first radius line (from hinge pin) is the leading edge of bull nose of aileron.
The next radius line out is the trailing edge of aileron pocket.
The hinge block on trailing edge begins about 1/8 inch from bullnose leading edge.
All hinge blocks are on a rib plane and all holes are in line via dowel.



Once ailerons are cut from wing. Ailerons will be sanded flat back to the vertical line in above pic. This line is the hinge pin center.
I will then make a 1 1/4 inch balsa bullnose and glue it to aileron. Much like the leading edge of wing was glued. Onto sheeting instead of sheeting over balsa block.
After bullnose is glued on I will make the oversized holes in the aileron leading edge for hinge rotation.
Drill hinge blocks in wing larger to accommodate the brass tube hinge extension.

The only difference I perceive in your example from what I have done so far is my hinge blocks are smaller and not sandwiched in.
For this difference I chose hardwood to make up for block size. Also leading edge bullnose on top of instead of sheeted over.

Hope all that makes sense. Also hope I don't need to tear it all out.

As for beefing up the hinge block this is what I did. If it still looks suspect than please say so.

I cut strips of light ply the same thickness as wing ribs.
And epoxied them to other side of rib with spacer epoxied between hinge block and ply scab.




As for the hinge blocks on the ailerons I think they look secure.
They do not bridge a hole but sit entirely on an aileron rib.
I used Hysol epoxy and there is an epoxy fillet around edges.
This pick is typical of all aileron hinge blocks.




If I have not gone wrong in my approach to the ailerons. (if I have next question is mute)

Do the hinge blocks look sufficiently secure ?

Again, no sweat Leroy. I really do appreciate looking out for the cubby.

Kevin

Melchizedek

Thanks Vincent,

I think you will love working with magnets. I still have my drywall bb incase I need to pin anything. That hasn't happened yet.
On the other hand it is around as an auxiliary table for another part of the build if necessary.

I am praying not just your house sells, but that you find a new location that makes for great living and meets all your requirements for airplane building. I know you have many in your corner for this to happen soon.

Your builds are stellar the old fashioned way. They will be Cosmic the magnetic way.

Kevin

Leroy Gardner

Kevin part of me is teacher and the rest of me is doer and I have a well trained eye to catch the problems in fabracation steps in industry, I have brought it into my building RC and it works because I modify planes and you need a well thought out plan when changing things. While there is more ways than one to do many of these things there is always one way better than all the others. My motto is do it right first and save the anguish of redoing it again, in industry it can get expensive in time and materials.

The illustrations I posted is the most typical way of doing these kind of control surfaces and normally the ribs would have been cut to accomodate the changes. At this point what you explained sounds okey but you still need a face stiffener across both wing and aileron. it ties everything together and keeps them straight and you build off of them for the rest of it. You become the judge when it comes to alot of this and as you gain in experience you will find yourself changing any number of things that will make your builds better and not even add weight often times easier than plan and instructions show it, in many cases its only a guide.

You do wonderfull work and it clearly shows, a craftsman in the making, pooey, your already one.

Leroy

Melchizedek

Next up was to finish putting rib cap strips on the bottom of wings.
One step I did not do and am saving cause I am still pondering it.
That step is to sheet aileron servo bay and cut pushrod slot in it.

After that sand all joints flush and true.
The trailing edge had epoxy dribbling's on it.
I thought it best to machine this off and avoid over sanding the balsa.



After both wings were sanded it was the moment of truth.
Loose wing mount screws and cut the wings apart at the separation point.


Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy.
They came apart just fine. Feel like I'm making progress.



Next up in order of instruction book is to complete center wing section.
After that finish outer wing panels. ( ailerons and stuff like that).

I think I will probably finish outer wing panels first, but need to ponder it.

Kevin

Melchizedek

Yep, outer wing panel won out.

Decided it was time to set the ailerons free.
So I got out the pull saw and began cutting.



My target width for the aileron was 1 1/4 inch. So I checked.


I was very pleased, was concerned after sanding things flush this would be small.
Next up was to sand the aileron ribs flush with the top and bottom sheeting.
This was done very carefully as to not eat away at outer skins.



What came next I have been waiting 3 weeks to do.
I thought 3 weeks ago I would be at this point.
Goes without saying I'm a bad estimator of time.

Three sheets of 1/2" balsa were glued face to face to make an 1 1/2 " sheet.
Then that was machined and sanded to slightly over 1 1/4 thick and edges squared up.



Then set up a router table with a 5/8" round over bit .
I set the fence just to barely touch the bearing.
The wood is riding on fence not bearing.
The bearing would cut a grove in soft balsa.
Also with a full round over, when cutting other side there is nothing for bearing to ride on.
All four corners were rounded to make two 1 1/4 " bullnose to become leading edge of aileron.



My experience with lumber is many times when you go to cut that round over off it cane go squirrely.
Meaning bow or twist. Also after setting round overs free from board, I will take the middle out with a
core box bit to lighten them up. Don't think after all that they will be straight and true anymore.
So I decided to glass the bullnose first and hope that glass shell will keep them true.

I used West System epoxy, 1.4 oz fiber glass, and a layer of peel ply on top of that.
The layer of peel ply will keep the glass filled and excess sit on top of peel ply.
When that is peeled away after cure it should leave a smooth surface.
When the epoxy goes off I will do other edge.



Now for some lunch.

Kevin

Melchizedek

Before the bullnose gets glued on, the RDS sleeves and blocks needed to be worked up.

First the blocks were sized and fitted. Then location of mortises were laid out.
The sleeves begin on hinge line and are inline with hinge blocks.
The mortises for the sleeves were made on the drill press with a 3/16 brad point drill.

This is just a dry fit for now.



Kevin

TomCrump

Kevin, What material will you use for the RDS sleeves ?

Melchizedek

Hi Tom,

I am not sure if I introduced confusion with my use of the term " Sleeve" . I meant to say "Pocket"
The pic below includes all the hardware I will use. The pockets are left and right of flipper arms.
All hardware was purchased from http://www.irfmachineworks.com/g2rds/.
The pockets are a laminate composite. The inside pocket seems to be lined with ultra thin steel.



I used this system on my Kadet LT 40.
Why would you use that on a trainer you might ask.
Well I liked how it worked and thought it better to practice its implementation on a trainer than say a Space Walker.

I have a question for you veterans.

How do you guys set up your ailerons on these big birds?
A dedicated channel to each servo or Y cable ?

If you look at the pockets close there is a notch in one side.
This notch is for the wiper elbow. Right now they can be left or right.
That is until they a glued in. Then I will be committed one or the other.
This will determine what side the servo lays on for installation.


On my Kadet I used dedicated channel per servo and set it up as flaperons.
On my Extra I used Y cable. Unwittingly built symmetrical (mirror image) servo bays.
The Y cable made ailerons go in same direction. Had to install Y with servo reverser.


This takes me to my next question.

If you use dedicated channel, Is flaperons the only way to set ailerons up ?
I use a Futaba radio if that helps.



Thanks, Kevin

TomCrump

I understood what you meant by "sleeves", Kevin. I used formica. The pockets were made from countertop samples, available in the kitchen cabinet departments of the big box stores.

I haven't tried it, but I would think that the way that you have the arms layed out in the pic, would produce the proper motion for ailerons. I don't see why you would need a "flaperon" setting to accomplish it.

I could easily be missing something. I've only used an RDS on rudder, but it seems to me, that if the arms are pointed in opposite directions, correct aileron movement should be achieved. It should be the same as using servo arms on the ailerons. You use one side for one servo, and the opposite for the second.

Does the description make sense ?

VincentJ

Kevin, if it were me and I had the channels available in my radio,I would set-up the ailerons on separate dedicated channels for each servo.

TomCrump

It should allow for better adjustments from the TX, as opposed to one channel adjusting both surfaces. This would be my preferred method, but if channels are limited, a Y-harness would suffice.

Melchizedek

Tom, the confusion was on my end. I was pondering some sort of support for the flipper arm when I made my initial post. I was still pondering it when I responded to your post and was not sure what you were pondering. I had no idea that you had fabricated your own pockets and thought maybe I had also.

Which leads me to another question for you !
I have seen several different kinds of attachments for servo to flipper arms but only source that I know of is what I have.
What did you use for servo attachment and flipper arms ?

The IRF stuff is first class but a little pricey for what it is.

Also on the flaperons thing. At the time of setting up my Kadet. Flaperons was the only path I knew of for two channel two servo aileron set up.
Actually at this time it is still the only path I know of. That was part of my question although I did not make that very clear.
It is becoming clear that is not the only or best path. I will have to reread my manual.

The RDS stuff I understand well. It was just the servo setup that was foggy.


Kevin

Melchizedek

Vincent and Tom, Thank you.

I do have the channels and that is how I will go.
Now I can glue my pockets in.

Kevin

Leroy Gardner

Kevin Smart-fly has an equalizer for dual setups $40.00, check it out at www.smart-fly.com/product/e.../equalizer.htm

Melchizedek

Leroy,

How cool is that! Bookmarked and also put in my mental pocket.

Thanks, Kevin

Melchizedek

Got my bullnose squared away.
Sorry, couldn't pass that up.

Glassed the 2nd side the other night and today I set them free.
I cut 5/8 plus off the blank. Better a little big than a little small when fitting aileron.

In photo 1 they are fresh off the saw.
You can see a little bow in the right one, but small.
They stayed very straight longitudinally.
So far so good.



Next step is to prepare them for disembowelment.
First prepared a cradle for them out of the off fall of the blank.
This will help keep them from rolling.
The cradle is also holding them up to the correct height of my cutting jig.


The cutting jig is 2 poplar boards machine 4 sides straight and true.
The bullnose and cradle is placed between both board.
A filler/stop block is cut and place at both ends.
The stop blocks are a fuzz thinner than bullnose to enable clamps to hold bullnose nice and tight,
Fence rail's are attached from center of bullnose out half router base plate plus 1/6 each way.
The router has a 3/4 core box bit in it. The 1/6 extra each way will make for a 7/8 cut left and right.



Made cut in 3 stepped passed to a depth of 7/16 .



Next to see if they stayed straight.
The one that was slightly bowed stayed the same.
The blanks are long right now. When cut to length they will be 5/8 + - both ends solid .





I am very pleased with the result.


Kevin

Leroy Gardner

Power tools save the day, save the time, save all the sanding so many just love to do, what fun is that, ha ha. Crafty dude arn't you, nice work Kevin, thats useing your head, I mean tools, when ya gottem I say use'em and you do it well.

Leroy

TomCrump

A friend made my RDS unit on a lathe. It attaches to the round servo "arm" that comes installed on many servos.

I had no rod support as it was short, mounted in the fin of my Cessna.

Tony Hallo

I used servo fittings from Servo City for my build recently.