NJRCFLYER2

My Feedback: (42)

The original remark was about "fluidity". That is just making up your own criteria as you go. One person's idea of smoothnees and gracefullness will differ from another's. Some think it's more graceful to fly very far out and large, and reward points accordingly, while simultaneuously ignoring the rules that say that downgrades apply beyond certain distances. That is introducing subjectivity based on personal tastes into an event that is above all, supposed to be defined as a precision event.

The problem with rewarding points for a preferred style is that it introduces a personal bias. There is not supposed to be a system of rewarding a pilot for seeing what you like to see. A judge is supposed to downgrade for the defects that are observed. No observed defects = no downgrades. The judge is not supposed to apply "spackle" to fill in for defects just because the style applied during the flight was a thrilling experience to observe. This isn't figure skating!

How is Sergio doing?

serious power

'That is introducing subjectivity based on personal tastes into an event that is above all, supposed to be defined as a precision event.'

Actually the FAI guide says that all the following be used as judging criteria;

1;Precision
2;Smoothness and gracefulness
3;Positioning/presentation
4;Size,relative to the area and other manoeuvres

It then says; 'The above requirements are NOT listed in order of importance, and ALL of them must be met ,,, '

The guy is from Serbia and as such seems to have very good English.
You have picked on his choice of words and use this to impose your own narrow view ;'supposed to be a precision event '.
His use of the term 'fluid' is/was a good means to describe compliance with all of the required criteria.

Brian

Malcolm H

Absolutely Brian, but back in 2004 Bob Skinner clearly had his own thoughts about their relative importance.

Malcolm

serious power

Hi Malcolm,
I remember that.
The problem with it is the way the criteria are also interrelated making independent weighting impractical at best and impossible at worst.
This is why impression will remain at the heart of judging.
Thus 'style' will apply, the question remains;which/what/when & where.

Brian

Tangy Tom

I think it is high time the pilot was out of view of the judges when flying at large comps and all national identity marking removed from the aircraft. The judges, as good as they are, are only human and it is inevitable that there will be a degree of "judging who is flying" rather than "what is being flown". Currently the above criteria are judged to varying standards depending on what pilot is flying. i.e. unknown pilot flys close in and tight resulting in slight box infringement - manoeuvre is downgraded. A named pilot does exactly the same and is given the benefit of the doubt. This disparity has happened and will continue to happen as long as the judges are aware of who is flying.

bjr_93tz

While I 100% agree with Tangy Tom I don't want to see pattern head this way. It is the ideal solution but it just doesn't feel right and think it would do more harm to the sport than good. To be honest a good judge should be able to recognise a top name flyers "style" irrespective of what they are flying.

I believe that dividing up the judging should be explored. Put sombody at each end of the 150m line and they downgrade X points for every maneuver performed each 25m out from that. No impression or guesswork.

Put two judges on the 60deg sightlines for the "box" and every time the plane passes the pole at either end a 50% reduction is recorded or a fixed number of points deducted, no guessing how much of the maneuver was done out of the box, you went out and a fixed penalty is applied.

One judge scores equal/unequal radii, another length of lines, another roll rates and roll angles, another judge.

This isn't practical at club level but it would be workable for national and world championships.

It can't hurt to develop and run the system as a trial at some event?

Tom Miller

For the F3A finals at the US NATS the past several years, we've used "Zero Judges." These two judges just watch to insure the maneuvers are correct. They don't judge quality, they just watch for any one of the multitude of things that can turn a maneuver into a ZERO. They can talk to each other and if they see a mistake and agree that the maneuver is wrong, then their ZERO overrides the other judges. It works VERY well ... especially in the unknowns

Tom

Velco

Hello everyone,

I see my comment has started a big discussion . Yes I am from Serbia and my English is OK because I have made my high school in English language and I have passed my "O" and "A" level exams long time ago, thank you [8D]. So rest assured that I knew exactly what I meant when I said "fluid". And I want to further explain this.

I am only 4 years into RC flying, so I am definitively not an expert, but I have high goals . This was the 1st time in my life that I have attended a F3A competition of this level, together with a group of friends. Well, after watching all the competitors in the semi finals, we ALL had agreed that CPLR has the best:

2;Smoothness and gracefulness
3;Positioning/presentation (a smoke trail from his YS definitively helps here)
4;Size,relative to the area and other manoeuvres

As you can see position 1. is missing because he is NOT, IMHO, the most precise flier! Still he has won. Well, is it deserved, I don't know, I am not a judge. Personally I hope that this "figure skating" type of judging is less influential in the future.

I am a great fan of Seba, I have 4 Sebart planes, and I was hoping he would be the winner this time. But it did not happen, may be next time. Still for a non expert like me, CPLR's flying looked the best.

Also one more comment I had made about charisma: not all people have it, actually very few really have it. From that point of view Seba is the European champion because of what he has done minutes after his final round. IMHO, a true champion should also be a charismatic person, one that can really promote the sport ...

Velco

bjr_93tz

This makes sense.

ofremmi

Dear all
For those interrested in the technical aspect, the organizers has posted very complete records of what type of equipment used, measurements of airplane weight, dimensjons, battery weights, battery voltage measurements, noise measurements, wind readings during flights etc. etc
It is all available from the official WEB-page of the competition, at : http://www.f3a-ec.eu/

guille2006

Thanks Ola... will check.

radray

Very nice job collecting and presenting this data.

s-chester

Yesterday we had an open championship in Israel
Ireland team joined us

Angus Balfour

Very nice Shlomi! I bet Ram is wishing he had taken the "other" item of clothing I offered him. I've got plenty pairs left, will take some to the US and give you guys some. You will find that they are very airy with little or no sweat build up :P Must say I am particularly digging the gold key fob you guys gave me. Mmmmmm, shiney!

wagen017

Ola, I think I checked the whole site, but could not find this info. Where should I look?

Volkert

macleote

http://www.f3a-ec.eu/pdf/Fertige%20PDF.ZIP

bye

Seb

Hans Meij

Hi Volkert I had the same.
Opened every menu-item etc.
in the end I found it to be the 'Adobe sign' at the end of the first line of text on the frontpage. How could I have overseen this.
http://www.f3a-ec.eu/

wagen017

Thanks! Now I have found it!

Volkert