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Picco P-zero 0.8cc

Old 05-15-2009, 11:56 PM
  #51  
AndyW
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc



And here's mine. I wouldn't dare run it without a muffler, my ears have taken a beating over some 40 years of flying and bench running. Now, very high frequencies at almost any volume or low frequencies at high volume hurts. I've been wearing earplugs for years and I know people with tinnitus so don't ever want to go there.



Still, 27K on a 5" prop is too cool to not like it. What will it fly though. The Picco/Brodak .06 hybrid seen here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt6OYUorx9U does 26K on the same prop and fuel, a fair bit less, but at a far lower weight. Below are my comments on this clip.



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++

Here, we have the moving bits of the same Picco engine installed into a Brodak .06 which is made by CS in China.

I really like the mechanical arrangement of the Brodak/CS engine. A more compact and sensible configuration than most. Both Brodak and CS have an RC version but both suffer from the lack of an adjustable airbleed. Both are early, iron/steel technology and serve their intended purpose of a solid, reliable sport engine.

But performance is what it's all about so the high tech running components of the Picco were installed into a Brodak case.

This was far more complicated that my other attempts at improving the performance of this good, little engine. The original work utilized the piston and cylinder of the Norvel, AAN and Revlite engine, as seen here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHQhD1... (AAN) and here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYITm-... (Revlite).

These two runs were with my benchmark, 6 X 3 Tornado prop.

The runs with the stock, Picco and the Picco/Brodak hybrid were done with an APC 5 X 2 prop, cut down from a 6 X 2. The reason is that I used the sparklingly well made crank out of the Picco. As it turns out, the Picco crank is a drop in fit into the Brodak case. That meant that the crank timing is designed for very high speeds in cars and that means we need to run smaller props when converted to aircraft. Smaller, that is, for sport aerobatics. I'm sure that the combat and free-flight guys would run even smaller props with higher pitches. I have some of those in glass and carbon but the prop hub arrangement necessary to make the conversion from car to aircraft means hogging out a rather large hole in the hub. The first attempt with a reamer resulted in a split hub. I didn't even THINK of trying again and running such a prop, just in case,,, and certainly not at the expected RPMs. I need to get some APCs intended for the job.

In any case, the hybrid, seen here, does an equally respectable job at 26K on the same, 25% fuel and the same prop as the stock, Picco.

Not too shabby when you consider it has no ball bearings and weighs less than half of the Picco.

On the benchmark, 6 X 3 Tornado prop, the stock Picco does 19.5K on 25% fuel. This is just a few hundred RPM less than the Brodak/Norvel hybrid. I was hoping for more, but clearly, the timing of this engine demands that you let it spin up. This has been confirmed by another gearhead with a similar passion for small engines and reports of 38K on a smaller prop and more nitro has me thinking that this would make a great ducted fan engine.

But what we really need is for Picco to take notice and for them to make a simpler engine with a brass bushed case, bushings at both ends of the rod, a throttle with an adjustable airbleed and a bolt on muffler. They could offer it in a side exhaust and a rear exhaust for tuned pipes. Or, they could just do it like the VA and just make it rear exhaust and that would accommodate a muffler AND a pipe.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciHrSAXdUsE is  the stock Picco on my benchmark, 6 X 3 Tornado prop and at 19.5K, it's not bad. But not great. As mentioned, I have stock Norvels doing 19K on the same prop and fuel at far less weight. Cost? We won't go there,,, or will we? Greg, thank you for supplying the first one. Rob, thank you for the heads up on the other two I got. I'll let you fill the gang in on that.
And here's where that talk about torque and HP might come in. I fed some of these numbers into my ThrustHP calculator and here's what it says.
On the stock, Picco converted to take a prop.
6 x 3 at 19.5K
.206 HP
55.4 MPH
1.39 lbs static
4.2 x 4 at 37.4K
.469 HP
142.05 MPH
1.31 lbs static
Pretty much says it all.
But prop brand and design can make a big difference. I have another Brodak hybrid with Norvel AAN parts that does 19.9K on the 6 x 3 black Tornado. But it only does 18.7K on a Cox, 6 X 3 grey. 
Punching in those numbers, we get, 
6 x 3 Tornado at 19.9K 
.219 HP
56.54 MPH
1.45 lbs static
6 x 3 Cox at 18.7K
.182 HP
53.13 MPH
1.36 lbs static
The calculator does take into account prop design but they only list Zinger wood, APC, MA, Bolly, MenzS, Smart and Custom. This calculator originated with someone who had some rather large engines in mind.
The preceding numbers used MA as the prop design.
So we have three variables here, Tornado, Cox and MA prop design. I gave up on MA props years ago till just recently with their new designs but I don't have a 6 X 3 in either their old or new style.
And there's the rub. Some engine makers give you performance specs on their products but too often they don't tell you what brand of prop was tested.
So we have two different brands, quite different in design that deliver some significantly different numbers on the same engine and fuel.
What's most telling about efficiency in prop design is that even though the Cox prop is downgraded in all aspects, IN THE AIR, it delivers superior performance. The real kicker is that this particular Cox prop is the rubber ducky version. I can get my Low Stik into a hover with the Tornado prop, but that's it. The Cox prop, on the other hand, allows me to climb out from a hover. As a side note, I don't hover six inches off the ground like the electric guys do. This, I do WAY up, and I can't really hold it there for long. The plane isn't designed for that, and, I'm sure that outrunner motors, with much torque, on large props, at low RPMs, are far more more suited for that kind of joy.
But that's where diesel might fit somewhere in between.


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Old 05-16-2009, 12:57 AM
  #52  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

...Um. Rob, i hate to put a damper on things, but the prop in the picture you posted sure looks a lot like a 4.2 x 2 prop- it does not look like it has enough pitch to be a 4" pitch prop from the photo. Could be an optical illusion though.
could you check it ?

J.M
Old 05-16-2009, 01:26 AM
  #53  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

JM, I wouldn't be surprised if you are correct, you must have eyes like a hawk. I'm looking at a 4.2x4 right now. I hope you're wrong, but you might be right.
Old 05-16-2009, 07:50 AM
  #54  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc



JM,



Read your post this morning and ran downstairs to check and partly hidden under the massive tokki prop nutwas a "2" - URGH!



I was shocked - Me with a 2" pitch prop?



I reached into my bag of 4.2x4 props and pulled this one out.I didn't even remember buying this one unless it was for a .1cc diesel


Sorry Guys- excuse me while I reach for the prozac

Old 05-16-2009, 08:22 AM
  #55  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc



Don't feel bad, Rob. Here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmdlI...e=channel_page I spent some 4 hours trying to run an engine in reverse. Of course it burned off the prime. But in reverse, no suction, no go.



Also, at first, both the Picco and the hybrid were both way below par on the 6 x 3. Until I discovered that I had put on a 6 x 4. I'm going to paint the tips on that one yellow, or something. Or maybe trash it.

Old 05-16-2009, 10:25 AM
  #56  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

RocketRob, send a loaf of Bordenaves up here and I'll make like this never happened.


Old 05-16-2009, 06:06 PM
  #57  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

Don`t feel bad.  mount the real prop and let her rip! 
 I tell you what, for $28 I think you got a bargin.

 J.M
Old 05-17-2009, 01:45 PM
  #58  
forsakenrider
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

DARN! i really wanted to get one of these off ebay and now there seems do be non
Does anyone know of a decent place to get one of these little fellas?

Also, anyone tached an actual 4.2x4 yet?
Old 05-17-2009, 07:20 PM
  #59  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc



I've been looking too! Where did they go? For a while they are all over then when I finally decide to mess with one, poof.



MJD

Old 05-17-2009, 11:13 PM
  #60  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

Crap, I better get moving one one or two of these...
Old 05-18-2009, 08:47 AM
  #61  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

Tower Hobbies still lists them but has "limited stock" at the much reduced price of around $155.00

I have heard through the grape vine (apparently right from Mr. Picco himself) made 1000 of these engines for OFNA last year and that the factory has no more engines or parts (as or April this year).

These engines where made for the 1/16 scale R/C Car market, and proved to be TOO FAST, as the cars were 'uncontrollable' with top speeds between 50~60 MPH...!

I got two from hopmeup on eBay last summer and the rumour is they sold the last 4 they had about 2 months ago.

You can still get the Sportwerks .05 which is of similar design (but not the same quality as the Picco) and parts seem to be readily available through Horizon Hobby and MECOA is selling the similar Fuji / Toki and also has parts.

cheer, Graham

Old 05-22-2009, 04:52 PM
  #62  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc



apc 4.2x4  28,200-300



no muffler - hearing protection reqd.



sounds cooler at 37,400 though

Old 05-22-2009, 04:59 PM
  #63  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc


ORIGINAL: RocketRob



apc 4.2x4 28,200-300



no muffler - hearing protection reqd.



sounds cooler at 37,400 though

My VA .049 MKII R/C spun 25,300 on the same prop, for reference.

MJD
Old 05-22-2009, 06:13 PM
  #64  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc


ORIGINAL: RocketRob



apc 4.2x4 28,200-300



no muffler - hearing protection reqd.



sounds cooler at 37,400 though

Per our phone call, set 'er rich and let it unload in the air.....!

Okay, it's not exactly the lightest engine around and you have to adopt a carb to it (and a muffler if you can still hear after years of hot 1/2A's), but where else can a guy get a throttled 1/2A with a muffler that belts out that kind of #'s? As for the weight, I'll find somewhere else in the airplane to make it up if Ihave to.

Even at $100++ Ithink these are a bargain. A guy would have less in these after adding a carb and muffler than a Fora or whatnot with a fixed venturi and no muffler.

Iwas talking with GKamysz last night about changing the liner height to detune these a bit for better performance on 'regular' props, he seemed to think the idea merited experimentation. Also piqued his interest at the idea of a diesel conversion, but that's more his bag than mine-Ican't discuss it with any authority. Greg?
Old 05-22-2009, 06:51 PM
  #65  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

Swap the throttle out for a venturi and try and fine tune it for more power! Thats what I wanna do atleast. I need to find one for that old hopemeup price [&:]
Old 05-22-2009, 08:46 PM
  #66  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

Dave, you think detuning would work as well for something like the Toki, in addition to a turbo head?
Old 05-22-2009, 11:47 PM
  #67  
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ORIGINAL: digital_trucker

Dave, you think detuning would work as well for something like the Toki, in addition to a turbo head?
Idon't know, Ihaven't had one apart. It would only work if the motor was timed too hot like the Picco is. Since the guys in the Toki thread didn't put any really small props on it there's no way to tell if it's just a turkey or a motor that was poorly adapted from another use (like an RC car motor).

There are a lot of ways for a company to get it wrong when making a motor, and I'd like to think that a company as large as Toki would have actually had target performance in mind when they built the airplane motor. Chances are that they are using a hodgepodge of car and airplance parts to make a motor that is "about right" rather than making it right. Designing a motor with proper cylinder timing and crank timing is easy for most companies. It's usually the flow characteristics of the motor that determines if it's a slug or record setter, and it's on the intake side that most gains are made. Part of the problem with 1/2A motors is the small nature of the parts and dealing with castings in large volumes. Small parts like crankshafts are difficult to machine, cast intake runners in the case are difficult to match to ports, etc. The gains that can be had by simply matching the ports to intake runners and making sure the runners aren't too large can be quite significant.

Proof of this is in how Cyclon builds it's motors and how CombatPig and Toad and the 1/2A pylon guys build their motors. Cyclon puts an oval or "D" shaped hole in their crankshafts and instead of putting the intake runners on the case, they mill them right into the side of the cylinder liner-it's impossible for a port to mismatch this way. When CP and Toad do the Norvel reworks, a lot of time is spent on only two areas:Getting the air/fuel mix in, and getting compression/deck height right. The ports work fine....

So, at any rate the Toki just needs to be taken apart and looked at by someone who knows how to make a motor go. Ihave three of the Piccos coming, but no access to a Toki. IIRC, Greg may have one-Ican't remember. The turbo head would be an improvement-I'm surprised they didn't come that way..?
Old 05-23-2009, 01:41 AM
  #68  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

If Toki didn't see fit to install a turbo plug onto their motor,, uh, engine, then I'm inclinedto agree that maybe they just threw something together. Case in point is that they use a SOLID brass rod??? Cheap to make, but adds huge amounts of stress to thereciprocationparts. I don't know what the Toki's piston pin is like but the Picco'shas a larger than usual outside diameter and is HOLLOW by a large measure, as in, it's a LIGHT, thin walled, TUBE.With the larger diameter, you get more surface area to resist the high, reciprocating loads and wear. Well thought out all around the Picco is, to paraphrase Yoda. I was very much impressed.

BUT,,, I have a Brodak with the bits of an old Norvel AAN stuffed into it. And it's using the stock, Brodak crank. And it does 19.9K on 25% fuel on a 6 X 3 Tornado. I haven't yet got to putting a timing wheel onto it. It just went good from the get go. As Dave suggests, I think that at least some of this has to do with the portpassages cut into the liner instead of the case. This way, you get it exactly right every time. In fact, the VA does it that way too, MK1 AND MK2. and so is the Picco/Brodak hybrid.

Maybe next up is to use the Picco crank in the Norvel/Brodak hybrid and stick on a 4 or 5 x2 APC. I didn't dare do that with the stock, Brodak crank. I broke two running 8 x 4s on diesel fuel. This is not a negative against the Brodak engine, it handles its glow chores just fine. Its just that no Norvel .06 or .049 has ever broken a crank when run with the 8" prop on diesel. But, the thing is, the Picco crank and the Brodak crank are both 7mm while the Norvel crank is 7.5. Even small increases in diameter make any shaft or tube far stronger than you might think. BUT, this IS a PICCO and the other is, well, it is what it is. So I'm speculating that Picco has made a small crank just as strong as the larger, Norvel crank. Next up is the Picco crank stuck into the two hybrids to run teeny little props and big lumber,,, just to see what breaks first.


About timing. I also have a stock, Norvel Revlite .06 that does 11K on an 8 x 4 prop. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57WTJ...eature=channelThat is one huge prop for an .06 but on diesel it just hauls *ss and sounds very happy doing it. The same engine has been tested on the benchmark, 6 x 3 Tornado on 25% glow fuel and it delivers 19500 RPM. No timing changes were made and that marvelous little Norvel handles the various sizes of props just fine. In fact, I did put a 5.25 x 2 APC on to a stock Norvel with 10% fuelandopen exhaust and got 26K. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cyvb7...eature=channelThis wasn't the very same engine but WAS stock. I'm sure that tweaking the timing to maximize the potential of each size would be of much benefit but I'm real super happy just the way things are. What a versatile, incredible engine it is. Then again, I recall the VA behaving the same way. Put a pipe on it with no attention paid to "pipe timing" and got 1.5K with no deterioration in throttling. I really need to get a YouTube video of that one done soon.

Some of this may sound like I'm being contradictory but this is what I get when I try this and that. I'm not a serious competitor so my lack of precision isn't costing me anything, However, If I DID compete, I can see that there would be a lot of engaging experimentation that could keep a guy with too much time on his hands, real busy.

Oh,

And here are the new numbers.

4.2 x 4 at 37.4K APC
.204 HP
107.58 MPH
.71lbs static

Finally, what if, with no changes to the timing, but with a far lighter overall engine, we could get numbers that exceed the stock Picco. I have some ideas (one of those are the D shaped crank port mentioned by Dave ) that will be tested, one at a time, to determine what effect each change has. AND,,, this one will be run as glow and dieseland the stock Picco will get the stinky treatment too. The neatthing is that the diesel head will fit both.

Maybe Picco will make a thousand batch run, of this thing that I have in mind. I've got dibs on the first ten,, or more.



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Old 05-23-2009, 05:37 AM
  #69  
AndyW
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

Looks like it's still not too late to get one of these at a good price.

Old 05-23-2009, 06:31 AM
  #70  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

I had my Toki apart to do some CAD modelling of it (renders attached). The crankshaft inlet is a a fairly large square hole with slightly rounded corners, and the bypasses are machined into the case.

The biggest problem with the Toki, of course, isn't so much the power output as the weight of the engine that's producing it. I suspect any of these engines, whether Picco, Toki, whatever (they all appear to be the same basic engine, perhaps with slight quality variations) will be heavy.

A while back, Brodak mentioned that an R/C version of their 049 MkII was being developed. I'm hoping that comes through and will deliver decent performance (not to mention some badly needed features).

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Old 05-23-2009, 07:22 AM
  #71  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

I went back and re-read the Toki thread and in fact, stock, the Picco does some 19K while stock, the Toki only did 15K. But Evgeny-Arm, our Russian friend did a lot of work to reduce the weight and increase performance, here, http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_71..._6/key_/tm.htm

He managed to take the anemic Toki up to 20K on a 6 x 3 and only 15% nitro and also he reduced the weight to match that of a Norvel .06.

Old 05-23-2009, 07:46 AM
  #72  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

AndyW ,

Well, I just broke down and orderedone Picco .06 small blk, Non PS Turbo (OFN51118) = $49.95 from Nitro House. The price was just to good to pass up. What carb and what muffler are you using? Thanks.

Gene

Old 05-23-2009, 08:28 AM
  #73  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc



I will have to check in with Macs Products and see if he has gotten to the header for this engine.



If I can get another 1.5K out of a pipe  on the 4.2x4 it will almost match my piped VA MK1



My 28,k may be on the low side of this engines stock potential as I'm sure I have some airloss between the carb OD and the engine carb bore. Tried to turn down a sleeve and it got so thin it crushed while parting off, so I just wrapped masking tape around the bore.[:-]  Need to get back to it with a proper fix.

Old 05-23-2009, 09:09 AM
  #74  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

Crank passage has more effect on power than strength. The problem with crank size in engines this small using bearings, is that you have to fit a standard size bearing. Bearings are sized in whole mm, unless you decide to design the engine in metric then, throw in an imperial dimensioned bearings.

Timing figures need to be looked at closely to determine whether or not messing with them will change the way the engine runs for the better.

Diesel is an interesting idea. Not all engines respond the same way, but the Norvel .074 made the same power on diesel at 10kRPM as it did on glow at 17kRPM. It would be interesting to try.

If Picco make a special run of airplane engines. It would have bearings. It would need a new crankcase casting. It would be expensive. Picco produced world class engines, not backyard beaters.
Old 05-23-2009, 11:15 AM
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

Greg,

I wonder if they'd respond if a guy sent them an enginecobbled up withtheir parts. Norvel made their .06 with a 7.5mm crank diameter.But there's no Imperial sizedbearing that fits AFAIK. But the Picco's and theBrodak's is 7mm and that really simplifies everything. I think I can stuff bearings into my hybrid. Then we'll see if bearings really DO makea difference in such small engines as we work with here. It's a truism that in a bushing application, the smaller the shaft, the less friction is encountered.

I would loveto see Picco apply their talents and skill making something to compete with Foras and Cyclons. And at the same time, offer a "detuned" version for us. For us, make it without any fancy carving of the crank andcylinder passages. Make it without bearings but WITH bronze bushings. Give us the turbo plug. Go to CS and just buy the throttle. And the muffler could be a much simpleraffair, similar to the Norvel .074 unit that I adapted.

Rob,

You have a VA MK1 doing similar numbers? It boggles the mind, the difference in power to weight. They should bring the MK1 back but make it chromed. Yeah, Evgeny was surep*ssed when hefound out that the Trinity"Draked" engine wasnot ABCas advertised.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Actually ABN Piston and Sleeve.
I do not love ABN - with a chromic covering I respect more.

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I second his emotion. The Wasp .06 is STILL called ABC although at least they've stopped calling it a ball bearing engine.

g-rock,

I used a throttle I got a few years ago that were made by CS for their piped, BB .049 ABC engine. I simply added the adjustable airbleed and bushed the stem to fit the case of the Picco. If you can get one, the throttle used on the Brodak/CS engine would work as well although that one doesn't give you a lot of room to add to it the adjustable airbleed. It CAN be done but you have to NAIL the location. The muffler is from a Norvel .074. I just made a simple header/standoff and drilled the muffler body wider to suit. Such a muffler can be made from scratch. Mecoa's muffler for the Toki is a drop in along with their front end bits. I used the prop support parts from Mecoa but that was temporary. These pieces can be made much lighter.

I may have gone the hard way in stuffing the guts of the Picco into the Brodak/CS case. I think this would have been made far easier if I used the VA MK2,,,, so, that's next on the list.

But dieselizing these engines, as is, are at the top of the list. I guess I'll have to post that at the diesel thread as well.


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