Hey Everyone,

Once I get into a stable hover, I try to get into a descending hover. However, everytime I start descending, my foamie starts to torque roll quite rapidly... sometimes even when I'm applying full right aileron. If I gun the throttle and ascend up a little bit... the ailerons finally take effect. What am I doing wrong?

Is it normal for the plane to rapidly torque roll when in a descending hover? I'm practicing to get lower and lower for a tail touch, but I'm afraid of it torque rolling too fast for me to make adjustments.

Thanks for any advice.

Mark

Normal.

Try entering the hover lower. Maybe harrier down low and pull it into a hover from there.

What he said try desecnding slower so you still got some rpm and wash over alerons and mark are you still haveing fun cheers john

If the plane is truely torque rolling, right aileron wont stop it.

gotta be smoooth with the trottle, and practice loads.

Also try having the plane angled slightly towards the belly. The more verticle the plane is the more it will want to torque roll. As someone else said try coming in lower so you don't need to back down so far. Good luck..

thats weird, it doesnt happen with my eflite QQ yak 54. what plane is it?

wgeffon,
I thought so.... I was beginning to wonder if it the plane or me since I just started learning to hover. I'll try starting from a lower altitude next time. It does sure seem like right aileron doesn't help in the descent.

beaggs,
I do notice that is it a little more controllable when I descend slower, but it still seems to torque roll regardless of full right aileron deflection..... however not as violently in a slow decent. I'm having a blast acquiring these new 3D skills that I've never had the chance to do. By the way, how are things around the shed?

Gus155,
Smooth on the throttle is definitely something I still need to work on. By the way, what does it mean to "practice loads"?

RustyTumbles,
I've actually tried hovering a little angled....but it was purely by necessity to compensate for the wind. It's been kind of windy at the park where I fly. When you hover angled towards the belly does your plane tend to drift in that direction? I just got comfortable learning to hover. Now I'm working on trying to limit the area where I hover. Right now, just learning to catch the plane over before it falls out makes me hover all over the park as oppose to keeping it in a confined area. I'm sloppy at hovering, but I guess it'll come in time.

flyingidiot,
I've got an Ultimate FX bipe foamie. I thought the that problem might have been from the fact the the wings are short and stocky. I thought maybe the wings make it more susceptible to torque rolling. However, from the general responses that everyone here replied with, I gather that it's normal. I was going to get the QQ yak foamie myself, but sadly I didn't. I kind of regret it. The bipe has alot of coupling effects when trying a knife edge.

Thanks everyone for all the responses. I really appreciate it.

Mark

You can drift with the wind if that helps you. Or you can push the nose down even further and add a little power to keep it where you want. (you may be hovering on a 45 degree angle) I found it easier to learn hovering by trying to stay where I started rather than drifting with the wind. Always (if your learning) hover nose into the wind. It is alot harder to hover in a cross wind or down wind. It also helped me to learn by facing the top of the plane, that way you know exactly what imputs you need.

Hope this helps you

Cheers

Rusty

P.S.

From what I've heard the QQ foamy is a little weak and breaks easily. Some coupling effects have alot to do with CofG placement. What exactly does it do on KE??

have you tried more aileron throw?

A little right thrust on the motor will help with the torque and P factor too.

Depending of speed when airgraft decends Ailerons reverses the roll force as soon as it overcomes propeller slipstream over ailerons.

I'm guessing "practice loads" means "practice one whale of a lot."

Way to find the proper side thrust is to hang it on about a 60 degree angle with enough throttle to stay at the same height. Should be moving forward at walking speed. It will probably fall off to the left but right rudder will correct it. Put in enough right side thrust so you don't need any rudder input. Have fun'

When I try to tail slide it lower, I really cut throttle nearly to zero, let it drop quickly, then give it throttle back. This seems to keep it from rolling on me. Also, can you do torque rolls and keep it in the hover? I learned on FMS with a plane that could torque roll but couldn't stop rolling. That's how I quickly got used to the changing inputs before I got myself G2.

Jabbing the throttle is another technique used by some guys that works.Throttling up and down like that gets the air blast over the ailerons to make them more effective. Torque rolls work better with the nose up almost vertical. You need more power with the nose higher so you get the air blast on the ails. Lots of ail. throw helps too.

RustyTumbles,
I've actually tried hovering with the nose into the wind, but is that considered a true hover? Till now, I usually hover and let the wind take me where ever it wants. I agree that is it harder to learn with the cross wind, but I figure that it just makes me that much better when there isn't any wind. I KE problems on the Ultimate happen with my 40 size Ultimate bipe as well. With the left wing pointed down, applying right rudder will roll it harder right and prop it back into level flight.

3DSAVAGE,
I'm using the longest servo arm possible with the EPA on my transmitter set to full aileron deflection. I'm not sure if I could make it deflect anymore than what I've got now. Any thoughts?

esamart,
I actually thought about that, but I always thought that the propeller wash would always overcome the reversing effect when descending. Maybe thats the reason why it starts torque rolling.

Flypaper 2,
My plane came with a stick mount that had right thrust already set to it. When I harrier at a about a 45 degree angle and then transition into a hover it seems to track fine without any rudder input necessary.

DHG,
Your guess is as good as mine on the "practice loads" part. I gather that I do still need to practice my butt off. I'm up to 3 x 10min flights a day. Hopefully I'll be better at 3D soon.

Ryguy,
I've done a tail slide, just not one where I return into a hover. That's pretty cool. I can torque roll ok, but it scares me when I'm close to the ground. However, I must admit that I can only hold the roll for only a few seconds before I fall out of the hover.

Thanks everyone for the advice.

Mark

Hey Flypaper,

Yeah, I agree. I have gunned the throttle to get the ailerons to kick in. Sometimes I do it too much to the point where I gain altitude and end up at the same height as when I started the descent. Oh well, maybe some day I'll get it right.

Mark

build a smove or calypso bipe, they wont torque roll like crazy and can anti-torque roll, AND plans are free, AAAAND both fly KE like a dream

Alot of how a plane torque rolls depends on what type of plane it is, and how much throw the ailerons have,thrust, and torque applied by the motor.
Some planes will automatically enter a torque roll when you pull it up into a hover, and wont allow you to hold it. Others will allow you to anti-torque roll. It just depends on the airplane and the set-up.

To correct your problem, I would suggest increasing the size of the ailerons, and the throw that you can apply to them.
You can lengthen the servo arms to get more throw, and shorten the control horns on the ailerons...also try to get the control horns as close to the hinge line as possible. With most foamies you will want 45-60 degrees of throw on the ailerons for good performance in a hover.
Change your prop. Try different pitches and prop sizes. Some props create more torque than others.

Also for more help with 3D type maneuvers check out www.teamflyingcirkus.com courtesy of RCuniverse

There are instructional videos on the website for many 3D maneuvers, and many more helpful videos coming soon.
The flying cirkus forums can also help you learn 3D by communicating with experienced 3D pilots.

Good luck...and have fun.

Daniel Z,
That's a cool looking plane. Where to you get the plans for them? I want to try to build one. Also, do you get the foam from an art store or something? I never thought a bipe could actually KE without coupling.

bdavidson,
Thanks for all the advice about the torque rolling. My plane can hover and I could actually stop the torque rolling with full right aileron deflection and gunning the throttle. The main problem is when I was try to descend on the hover. I've done everything you've suggested as far as the control horns... etc.
And, coincidentally I changed out the prop for a smaller pitch prop 2 days ago. That actually made a difference. Now it doesn't torque roll as hard on the descent as before.

Thanks for all the advice guys.

Mark

Bwahahaha, our evil conspiracy has borne fruit. He is addicted. [>:]

The foam is trade-named "Depron," available in 12" x 40" sheets from www.depronusa.com and other suppliers. 6mm (1/4 inch) thick is the most common material for outdoor flyers. Indoor foamies and light bipes like the Tensor are made of 2mm or 3mm.

For quick-and-dirty prototype work, you can go to one of the big-box supply stores (Lowe's, Home Depot) and buy 1/4" thick "fan fold" insulating foam. It's cheap, but a little heavier than Depron. Glue it together with Z-RC56 (air-dry, vinyl-based white glue) or foam-safe medium CA and foam-safe accelerator. Good hinges can be made using 3M Blenderm sticky tape, applied to beveled edges using the old "Monokote hinge" technique.

The main wing spar is usually 3/16" hollow CF tube. I get mine from www.darrolcady.com .

Plenty more hints & kinks if you browse this forum, or feel free to ask. Misery loves company!

here they are; there is some impressive video of the smove over here:

http://modellvideos.de/videos/slowfl...hysikabend.wmv

They also have static airbrakes so they can fly sloooow including downlines

watch it an you will believe!

Blipping the throttle as you come down will plume the ailerons with authority without climbing too much.

You'll find some planes have such a small resistance profile vs. others... a lot of it is in throttle usage... many little blips... not enough to pick the plane up, but stop or slow down torque.

Same thing with even rudder and elevator if you start to fall out you need to blip the throttle to give any authority. at firts it's always too much and you climb or over correct....

The mind first keeps bending the surface stick to get the expected results, but since there is no prop wash to speack of it's very muchy and soemtimes simply non-effective.

After a while you begin to add that "4th dimension" of thrust and mic it with the variosu inputs for compelte control.

I'm working a lot lately on the sim to get torque rolling down am am making slow progress... by no means am I good at anything...

But the concept is starting to get a grasp anyway...