Hi there guys(gals if there are any)

I need some info on a few manouvers plz.
The thing is there are info on more complex 3d on the net but its hard to come by basic simple ones. I know all the 3D manouvers(by name only) since most sites give good info on them but not too sure and the basic ones.

just got to know what a flat spin is thanks to the folks here in RCU.

1.now the first question is what a tumble is? Is it a sort of waterfall while its loosing altitude?

2.Snap roll?? there are a few threads here but they a a little confusing. can they be done with the aileron and rudder in the same direction/different direction or both ways? what actually happens to the plane?

3. for knive edge how do i keep it in straight flight without it turning? using opposite rudder alone or with up elevator as well(with up elevator the plane tends to turn faster actually)

so plz guys help me out in this one..
thanks.

i'm learning all this using my CAP 232 by Kyosho.

A tumble is not exactly a manuever, just what a lot of people call things like Snap rolls and maybe even Waterfalls. Basically, it's when the airplane is tumbling!

A snap roll is basically a horizontal spin. Throw the sticks in the corners (there are 8 different cominations excluding the throttle position) and see what happens. With the throws turned up that Cap will do some of the best snap rolls of any airplane! An example is full up elevator, full right rudder, full right aileron, and full throttle. You can start them at any attitude, but to start, just try them from straight and level or maybe a little nose up.

For a Knife Edge, just roll the airplane 90 degrees (wingtips perpendicular to the ground) and hold in enough rudder to maintain altitude. Do this at full throttle. Use whatever elevator and aileron inputs you need to hold the wings 90 degrees to the ground and keep the airplane headed straight. Some airplanes need a lot of corrections and others need very little.

If I remember correctly, my Kyosho Cap liked to pitch towards it's belly in KE (knife edge). There was pretty much no roll coupling...It was easy to KE.

thank..

but how does the plane tumble?
horizontal spin? ok i'v kinda done the snap rolls but does it actually spin horizontally? doesnt it kinda do it between the horizontal and vertical position? just curious though if my planes doing it right.

One more little question...is snapping the same as stalling?
when they say a cap snaps easily do they mean it stalls easily.
i'v also been usuing this term withouit actually knowing the real meaning of it.
thanks guys.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/showthread...34&forumid=230

hope this helps )

In a spin the aircraft is falling straight down. When I said a snap roll is a horizontal spin, I meant that it's moving horizontal while spinning.

When someone says a Cap snaps, they are saying that it tip stalls. It stalls at the tip instead of the root, so it drops that wing. A snap is a stall because the airplane is stalled, but a stall is not usually a snap...

I'm sure we can help explain stalls and snaps if you want...

Yes plz do explain what stalls and snaps are.
Thanks so far to BOTTLEROCKETWAR and DIABLOKID for the help .
What are tip stall and root stalls.man i didint know that there are so many stalls!!!!
Dont still fully understand snaps actually.
thanks.

I'll start things off...

Let's talk about stalls. Here are a couple terms we might need to know.

A stall is basically when the air around the wing get's screwed up. (my definition) We will go back to that...

Angle of Attack- This is the angle at which the wing meets the on-coming air. Pretend the ground doesn't exist, look at this from the airplanes point of view. Flying straight up would be O degrees angle of attack, not 90. It's measured in degrees...While landing, right before touch down, your angle of attack is usually about 18 degrees assuming you're stalled or just about to stall.

The root of the wing is where it meets the fuselage, or where the two halfs come together. The tip is, well, the tip!

An airplane will stall (screwed up air flow) at a different part of the wing first depending on the wing design. Generally (trying to keep it simple here) a tapered wing wants to stall at the tip. Generally a hershey bar wing, or a rectangular wing like a trainer will stall at the root. What does that mean?

If you look in the books, you will get this definiton of a stall. A stall occurs when the wing meets or exceeds the critical angle of attack (theres that angle of attack thing again!).

The critical angle of attack is the angle of attack at which the air get's screwed up (you stall). The airflow over a wing is normally very smooth (keeping it simple again). As you increase the angle of attack past a certain point, the air seperaess, mixes up, and basically get's screwed up. At this point, you've reached the critical angle of attack. You've stalled!

Keep in mind that you can stall at 100 MPH and stall at 10 MPH. Speed is not a factor, your angle of attack is what matters. If you pull high g's (lot's of elevator!) at high speed, you can meet the critical angle of attack and stall. If you try a really sharp turn at high speeds, you can stall...Got it? You don't stall because you're too slow and you don't stall because you're going up.

So let's get back to your Cap 232...

The Cap 232 is one of the best aerobatic airplanes ever designed, probably more for it's instability than it stability! That's a good thing and a bad thing.

It's got a fairly high wing loading and a tapered wing. As I said before, the tapered wing (for others who want to correct me, I'm trying to keep it simple!!) generally means it wants to stall the tip.

Let's use an example...

You're flying a trainer straight and level and you cut the throttle. You continue to add in up elevator and add in more and more to stay level. Eventually you stall (angle of attack is too high) and it just drops straight forward.

The trainer did that because the wing stalled at the fuselage, so it wanted to drop in the middle.

Let's go back to your Cap now...You're flying straight and level just like the trainer and cut the throttle. You slowly add in more and more elevator to hold your altitude. When you reach that point, the same point that the trainer stalled, your Cap will also stall. Instead of the air getting screwed up by the fuselage now, it get's screwed up on a wing tip. The airflow over the whole wing is sort of screwed up, but REALLY screwed up at the tip. What do you think will happen? Yep...It will DROP that wing. It will want to fall away from the direction you're trying to go (up). THAT is a tip stall. Cap 232's have a reputation for this, because of their wing and many other things. This is why many people hate them, and the same reason they are considered one of the best aerobatic airplanes ever designed.

What's good about this? I'll make another thread so I don't lose all this if my computer decides to quit.

So, why would you want an airplane that tip stalls? (stalls at the tip of the wing instead of the root)

First let's clear up a few things...

A snap roll is just a high speed tip stall, caused by intentional stick movements. The only reason it's called a "SNAP" roll is because you "SNAP" the sticks quickly and precisely. That's all.

Contiunous snap rolls while descending is called a spin. A Snap roll is one revolution around, but we can do it as many times as the airplane will allow. It might make more sense to call them spin just because the airplane is moving forward.

A spin is when the airplane is spinning around falling towards the earth WITH the wing stalled. Throughout the spin the airplane is stalled (screwed up air, past the critical angle of attack).

The elevator on your airplane is the angle of attack control. Pull it back and it increases. By holding full back pressure in a spin, you're holding the angle of attack at the critical angle of attack. This is why it stalls and spins down! The same happens in a snap roll.

Because the Cap will stall so easily at the TIP of the wing, this means it can do some of the BEST snap rolls of any airplane ever created. It will do lightning quick snap rolls and incredibly tight spins. This is what makes the Cap such a great aerobat. You will never be able to snap roll a trainer for the opposite reasons that a Cap is so good at it!

So...How did I do?

Oh man i wonder if anyone else could have put it better than you did Brian.
Thanks alot.
Understood things much more now.
Thanks again man.

Hmm...I'm having a hard time figuring out what I said...

But, you're more than welcome! Anything else I might be able to babble on about?

It's past my bed time anyway, may as well stick around...

ok then...
you said when u are landing its about 18 degrees..how come?/ when its up vertical its 0 degress so shouldnt it be 90 degress when its landing???

then when u say spinnin down you mean rolling while loosing altitude right???but if thats so...rolling is done the wings are not stalled right?so is roll the same as a spin?

if its stalled how come it can unstall once we neutral the control surfaces?

Let's see here...

It reaches it's critical angle of attack around 18 degrees. Assuming you're heading straight down the runway (that's perfectly level) into a perfect headwind, you will touch down with an AOA of 18 degrees. The angle between the wings and the runway will be around 18 degrees... Then you're on the ground.

When the airplane is going straight up, the AOA is 0 because the angle between your wing and the oncoming air is 0. Have to remember what the angle of attack is... The angle at which the wing meets the oncoming air.

Spinning down means it is in a spin! Go back up and read what I said about spins. The wings are stalled and because of your rudder, aileron, and elevator unputs, it keeps it spinning in a certain direction. You've got to go try all this with your airplane. Seeing it happen will really help explain it all...It's tons of fun too.

Why does it become unstalled when you take the controls back to nuetral?

Remember I said the elevator is the angle of attack control? When you are holding pack pressure or forward pressure on the stick you are holding the angle of attack up. If you hold it back far enough for the spin, it will continue to stay at or past the critical angle of attack. When you let go of the controls (the AOA control) the AOA decreases and the wing comes out of a stall and flies again.

ok thanks
so see if i get it right...

a snap roll is actually the shorter version of a spin....a spin and a

rolls are not the same as a spin but a snap roll and the spin are the same (spin uses mainly rudders.ailerons and elevators while a roll only uses ailerons) hehe hope everyones not gettin confused!!!!

I totally understand the meaning of a stall Brian...its when the laminar flow over the control surfaces gets 'SCREWED UP'. so a snap is when in tip stalls right

anyway whats a tumble...ok its not a maneuver but what happens when u tumble?

thanks and i hope im not getting too annoying!
cheers 8)

A tumble is just a tumble...It's not a manuever, so I can't tell you.

You can call a snap roll a tumble if you want...It's up to you!

alright thats it for now Brian
Thanks again so far.
You really gave fantastic infos......this is to show guys that RCU is da place to know anything from anyone!!!(dont get tooo flattered Brian!!!!!!!!hehe)

Not being rude or anything,but why dont you ask your fellow club members at your field when you go flying? then you would be able go get them to demonstrate how to do the manuvers you are asking about, and you would have much more of a clue about the things you want explaining.

I will and am still doing it...Its nice to know others point of view as well and its easier to read things about stalling and stuff cause i can print it out if i would need to read it in the future(who still rememberes all their history classes after they leave school...well its something else like that)

By the way i'm not being rude as well...but why are you in RCU if not to ask all the questions you would need to know and as well as give out on what you know???

Cheers.

i wasnt calling you rude, but myself-i was saying that i didnt want to be taken as rude!

Visit 3DRC
Its got lods of manuvers on there and i very useful website...

Dean

Here's an excellent (and long) document about aerobatic maneuvers. While it doesn't go into "3D" maneuvers it does discuss in GREAT detail the other maneuvers as you requested Bikz.

http://www.mini-iac.com/pages/rules/imac_rules.asp

down load the "IMAC Flying & Judging Guide"

It's several pages and a long read but this WILL make you a better pilot.

Best of luck..............Mark

Wow thats long

Thanks for that site Mark.......very informative.