One thing that had a problem with doing the harrier and elevator is wing rock. I read this forum and find the best way to fix it is to have spoileron mixing and balance my plane laterly. I started 3D on my UCD 60 and begun to fix it with laterally balancing it. I did that and it still did it. Next I tried spoileron mixing and added about and it still did it so I added more and more. The next thing that happened is that my UCD went right in. I fixed it and said the heck with it and started practicing hovering for the rest of the summer. Next year I got my UCD 60 up and running along with the ef yak 54 which people said Did not wing rock. What did my yak do, It wing rocked. I was looking at Cris Myers 3d movie and noticed that in his video he had some wing rock with his yak and saw him try to correct it with the ailerons. After that I noticed that after about a couple days I could harrier, not only with the the yak but the UCD with no spoileron mixing and wit ha poor lateral balance. Another thing I noticed that when I went with or against the wind the plane bearly wing rock rocked. When I went cross wind the plane wing rocked the most, but I had to give aileron toward the wind which would be opposite when I turned around and went the other way. I can now confidently say I can do 3D and mean it. Not just do a harrier at 10 degrees or T/R for 2 seconds, but harrier at a 45 and T/R down on the Deck.

What I am asking with that long story is do we really know what wing rock is? Why is stalling the wing more (spoilerons) help? Why is there more or less wing rock relative to direction of the plane to the wind. Or do we not know what we are talking about and just taking some Idiot's explanation and adapting it as our own.

spoilerons, lessen effective AOA They do not "stall" wing more
In a nutshell - they make the wing follow the line of flight better --which is a sinking angle .
lower wing loading also helps as does lower aspect ratio. (short stubby wings . The airflow goes spanwise and helps stabilize.
The wind? actually makes no difference unless you try to hold the model against moving with the wind.Which is what we typically do without knowing it.

I've been able to dampen wing rocking by using the sticks. Just bump the aileron stick to one side to level the wings and put the stick back to neutral. This is usually sufficient to stop it. You may have to keep doing this until you find a stable harrier. Once you use this technique you can find the sweet spot by adusting the throttle, elevator, and rudder. After a while it's just like hovering, you don't have to think about it. I also use the elevator to stop rocking. Just let off elevator then back on it. It works. I was doing it all day today.

I haven't actually experienced this, but other guys have told me that if the aileron servos are too slow or underlpowered, you keep chasing it back and forth causing it to rock. In other cases, I have actually had to reduce aileron throw, or increase EXPO to reduce sensitivity to dampen out wing rock.

The aileron chord is proportionaly larger on tips than root in most planes, that`s why raising the ailerons in most airplanes makes a washout (less AOA) on wingtips, helping to get the wing root stall first, so, the plane does not want to drop a tip when entering a stall, and when you exit the tips fly first then the root.
Some planes like the funtanas have diferential airfoils on tips to achieve the effect, also, snaps need more throw (a snap stall one wingtip)

Greetings

Daniel

You should get Scott Stoops book on the mechanics of it. he starts writing for FlyRC now.

But to answer the question, because you're at stall speed, the torque of the motor becomes a factor now (esp with large props). The plane wants to torque left, that's why you have to correct with a slight right aileron. Once you figure out how much aileron your really need, your plane will wing rock much less. This is also why when you throttle up and down, you get a rocking sensation with the plane (which is one reason why I prefer to find the right torttle and stay with it, instead of gassing up and down). The other corrective input is that (I think) the P Factor will make your plane yaws to the left on upright and right on inverted, which is why you should add a little bit of right rudder (upright), or left rudder (inverted) to keep the plane flying straight.

Try correcting for this on your ailerons and rudder, and you'll be set

bone doc is absolutely right. the right throttle postiion is the key. steer with rudder.. if you get into using aileron to correct it usually ends up just rocking more.. the rudder correction wont be as abrupt so between that and the throttle you will have it.. some planes however will wing rock slightly in harrier no matter what you do. on those the more you fly it the more you can tame it (practice). to make them not look so bad.

When I say I use my aileron to correct I'm only talking about one slight bump of the ailerons and that's it. I used to try swinging my ailerons back and forth from one extreme to the other and it just got worse. One bump of the ailerons and back to neutral and it usually takes care of it. At this point my hands are pretty much in auto pilot so it's hard to say what I'm doing all the time. I do notice that giving too much throttle at once can induce wing rock (transitioning from elevator to harrier). This is a very fun manuever once you get the hang of it.

I use aileron to correct for wing rock and steer with rudder, maybe not the best way but it works for me. At first you will be chasing the wings but with time the wing rock magically goes away. If the wings get really "out of shape" I'll correct with aileron and rudder together. Some planes love spoilerons some don't care either way. I always thought rocking was a yaw problem since the rudder's airflow is blocked by the elevator, that's why inverted harriers are easy ( the rudder is in clean air). Honestly, I have no idea

Sounds like your experiences are very similiar to mine. I had a UCD 60 and have a Yak. I started hovering w/UCD and could do HA KE well but harriers were difficult to impossible to get into untill I used stall strips on the leading edge. I could then get into a harrier sometimes if the rocking wasnt too bad at the start. After some time at it,I was doing harrier turn arounds at several feet off the ground but the UCD always remained unpredictable at some point during the maneuver. It would roll or snap inverted occasionally and most of the time I caught it. The last time I flew the UCD I was far away in a harrier and turning around when it snapped again, I caught it inverted,pushed up on the stick and throttled up but I think it was still stalled cause it snapped again and went in. The Yak does wing rock some but it NEVER snaps or does anything nasty. Makes it much more comfortable holding it low and slow. The explainations of using ailerons in a harrier on this thread makes sense to me except one little element is missing I think- its anticipating the wing rock, actually hitting right aileron just BEFORE the right wing tip goes up. If I do it this way, the rock stops for a while. Even if I hold a little right aileron after that, it still may rock some, so I have to repeat the aileron input again when needed.Wind and direction is definately a factor. The wing is more fully stalled downwind but the plane travels faster, need more throttle to maintain altitude. Into a wind I get more rocking. I had a couple calm days this summer and what a blast, no problems with harriers,barely had to use ailerons at all,actually got in 3 landings, hit the prop once(not broke) the other 2 times engine was still running-what a rush!!! I ,m working on a Showtime, hope its "The One".

What plane is that???

Chyp Hyde Vission 3D.

50cc like 85ii I think but its not my plane

How would you rate the Vision for all of the 3-D maneuvers?

hmm, everything here is pretty much right, but one thing i haven't seen mentioned is cg... at least with my planes, when you have a forward cg, it rocks pretty bad, take it back a little and it is alot better... I think this is because the tail heavy cg makes it easier to stall the wing fully

the torque and p factor are over rated... when you have a 45 AOA, you barely notice the torque at a consistent throttle rate, and the yaw from P is usually offset by right thrust in most planes... I don't find that I need any consistent right aileron or rudder in a harrier... not that they don't exist, but I don't think it is a major cause of wing rock or something to worry about... usually its a mix of overcorrection with ailerons / bad expo/dr setup, and cg, that doesn't keep the wing evenly stalled

jmo...

The vision is a very good all around plane, 3D and precision. Upright harriers are good and inverted are almost hands off easy