Guys, I can do beautiful rolling circles all day so long as I'm rolling "outside the circle." I can do it turning left of turning right.

However, anytime I try and turn "inside the circle," it looks like total crap. This is true both in real life, and on the sim (G2).

I've tried adjusting my timing. I've practiced and practiced. but I just can't friggin do it. Is there a reason for this? Sean McMurtry (TOC pilot) learned to do rolling circles rolling outside the circle first, but said that once you learn how to do it rolling inside the circle, then it is easier. What am I missing here?

Nothing....

I find it harder to roll to the inside as well.
I dont think its a harder maneuver it was just harder for me to learn for some reason....

Keep at it. it'll come.

The reason the outside rollers are easier for you is because your doing it as a really bad slow roll...using the rudder mostly to make the turn .......This makes for a good start and you can heavy hand the rudder to carry you around.....



Rollers to the inside are not as rudder heavy the reason the proper rudder input to keep the planes altitude is also pushing your circle the wrong way....So heavy handed rudder inputs when going to the inside mean your not keeping it a circle..and rather your trying to go the other direction in the turn.....


USE MORE ELEVATOR.

When rolling to the inside of the circle all you have to make the turn is Elevator...because the rudder inputs go the wrong way for the turn.....Just use enough rudder to keep the nose up and no more and then lean on the elevator a little more.



Good Luck

Troy Newman

Thank you thank you thank you....!! This whole time I thought that you had to use a lot of rudder to guide it around, and I too think that rolling to the outside is easier. Like tool said, I can do a great rolling circle rolling to the outside, but not to the inside. This is probably why.


Thanks a bunch,

torque_roll

Cool!!!!!!! Thanks tne!!!!!!!111

Somehow my brain does'nt like the idea of mostly the rudder or elevator turning the plane in a rolling circle, dependent on the direction of the turn. If thats the case, your doing a really bad slow roll, in either direction The plane cant care what way its rolling, the rudder being the predominant yawing control while the wings pass through the horizontal position, and the elevator while the wing passes through the vertical position.

I rather think its just a head game. You could be feeling the planes pitch and roll coupling making it seem easyer in one direction. Try doing plain knife edge circles in both directions, If the plane is truly neutral, the rudder and elevator input should be the same, but opposite in direction. Of course, few planes fly this neutral. JMO

Kevin

Yes the Rudder yaws the plane in the horizontal.....to make the turn and the Elevator pitches the plane when the wings are vertical to make the turn...You are correct.


And a rolling circle or a rolling loop is nothing more than a bad slow roll!


The only time you have no control coupling is on level upright or inverted and on knife edge if the plane is setup to mix out or doesn't having any coupling issues...otherwise you are using the coupling of wings say at 45 deg to make the turn for you...thats how its done.....


The critical part of the circles are the transitions...needing some rudder to hold the nose up while not at knife edge yet.....and needing some elevator to do the same when not quite horizontal....


Example....Plane is upright flying left to right...The roll will be to the right and the circle will travel to the left IE outside rolls....


First start with left rudder...this will yaw the plane to the left and you start to roll right..as you approach knife edge in the outside roller....the left rudder is already making the turn for you....then as you approach and reach knife with right wing down the down elevator starts to take over the turn and the rudder starts coming out.....Once you are inverted you go with the right rudder and this makes the left turn continue and as you approach knife the rudder is actually the same direction needed for knife edge and holding the nose up......and so on and so on.....

Take the inside roller....again left to right flight this time we are rolling left and turning left. Same left rudder is needed to yaw the plane to the left right? We are upright and to yaw left takes left rudder.

The problem is that if the roll axis is moving in the circle as in we are rolling left...we need right rudder not left to hold the altitude (keep the nose up).....But right rudder is opposite to the direction of the turn.....remember we are turning left. Soooo as we approach knife edge we need up elevator and a little more up than down because we are not on knife yet and the right rudder required to hold the altitude is pushing us out and straight or even a little to the right when the turn is suppose to be constant radius to the left. .....so it takes a little more elevator than in the previous example of the outside roller because your overcoming the force of right rudder.....

Then at inverted you need right rudder to make the left turn but as you continuously roll left you need left rudder to hold the altitude...so as you roll left from the inverter you need left rudder and it requires a little more down elevator to compensate for the yaw in the wrong direction....Once on knife the down elevator is king and the the same left rudder is needed to hold knife......so you start easing out of the rudder until you get level....

On both rollers inside and outside the rudder helps and hurts in certain attitudes.......The problem is people look at the starting and certain benchmark points around the circle like 90 deg of turn if the circle has even numbers of rolls....or is a single roll....But if the circle is say 3 rolls then the benchmark points are 120 deg not 90 deg....


You can't do a good circle it you only input at these benchmark points.....its like a slow roll because the plane is always rolling a constant rate and always turning a constant radius of turn....


It take a slow roll mentality to perform them well.....

I'm not the best at them....but I do know the physics behind them and my pattern plane has zero coupling....

Take hand held model and put the plane in the circle anywhere in the circle....and then yaw the plane left and yaw the plane right....pitch the plane up and pitch the plane down.....These combos of both pitch and yaw (coupling in your head...cross controlling with the sticks) is what make the plane roll and turn at the same time.....You will see that the proper rudder to hold altitude for the inside roller is the wrong rudder to make the turn....and the opposite is true for the outside roller.....

Good luck trying it

Rolling Circle and rolling Loops are the hardest thing to do well....They can be done but done well is another story...that's why at the TOC and in the F3A finals sequences they are rolling circles and rolling loops...In 2000-2001 the F3A finals sequence had a 4 turn roller from inverted with the rolls reversed first one outside next one inside and so on.....The current F-03 finals schedule for the 2003 worlds has a 1 roll loop from the top in it.

The F-5 sequence has a 1 roll loop and a 1 roll 1/2 loop in it....The F-07 sequence has a rolling figure S with 1/2 rolls reversed a 2 roll circle with reversed rolls and another half rolling loop....


These are some fun maneuvers that are tough to accomplish with precision.....but look very impressive when done properly.

Troy Newman

Not to sure about this, I think most people just start rolling left, and inputing up elevator and right rudder at the same time. Thinking left rudder first, then transitioning to right gets very confusing.

If you think about it, the rudder and elevator inputs are reversed on a outside to inside roller, but the proportions are very close. The planes pitch and roll coupling are the reason for the differnt proportions of control input between the two. Again, JMO

Kevin

Rolling left and turning left you don't use left rudder you have to use right rudder!....But right rudder is opposite the direction of the turn.......So you use only enough to hold the nose up and make the turn more with up elevator at the start.....

If you use left rudder you will be loosing altitude.....
and if you use too much right rudder the radius of the circle will get larger....


The reason the outside rollers come easier for some is that the proper rudder choice (rolling right turning left) means the rudder is working for you or with your turn and not against you and against the turn in this starting position....


That's the entire point! I'm Glad you got it....

Thats why some people find it more difficult to roll inside the circle rather than outside.


Troy Newman
Team JR

Yep, I get it.... but I think my brain may be wired backwards Lets see.... rolling outside, aileron is opposite to the direction of the turn....Hmmm

Sorry for beating around your bush.

Kevin
Team KK

Interesting discussion. I learned to do outside rollers first simply because I thought it looked cool to be rolling ringht while turning left. I do outside rollers better mainly because I've done a LOT more of them than inside rollers.

Good comparison to a slow roll, because in both straight rolls and turning rolls, the faster the roll rate, the less important the rudder is. At a 3 to 4 second per 360 degree roll rate, the nose doesn't get a chance to drop much, so a passable rolling circle can be done simply bumping elevator inputs when the wings are a 45 degrees upright and inverted. This is because at 45 degrees bank angle, elevator input both bends the circle and maintains altitude.

Slowing the roll rate down further, though, lets the nose drop excessively and the plane undulates up and down ruining the effect. It's here, doing slower and more graceful rollers, that I personally feel the rudder and elevator are EQUALLY important in maintaining the manuever. I've got a video clip of a 3 turn rolling circle with alternating outside to inside to outside turns here:ROLLER LINK . The roll rate is approximately 9 to 10 seconds per 360 degrees, and the rudder and the elevator are equally responsible for maintaining heading, and bending the circle in both the outside roll and inside roll portions of the manuever. Their equal effect is REALLY pronounced in a single turn roller (regardless whether inside or outside) where the roll rate is maybe 25 seconds per 360 degrees.

I agree that it's mostly getting your MIND in gear relative to inputs that will lead to success, and for me I had to think of it like this: For an inside roller left to right from straight and level flight, I input maybe 35% left rudder to start bending the circle (here, elevator is responsible for nose attitude, and the rudder is totally responsible for bending the circle). As the wings approach 20% bank angle, I've decreased rudder input to 10% and fed in pull elevator (not "up" elevator, "pull" elevator) to maintain nose attitude (In this case, the left rudder would also introduce an undesireable nose down attitude, right?). At 45% wing angle, rudder input is 0% and "pull" elevator is maybe 25% since the elevator is now 100% responsible for BOTH bending the circle AND keeping the nose attitude right? Roll continues to a 65% bank angle, and I'm decreasing elevator input while starting to feed in RIGHT rudder. The roll continues to 90 % knife edge, and I'm using maybe 10% or less PULL elevator to bend the circle and maybe 50% rudder to maintain nose attitude (yeah, roles have been swapped, the elevator is now bending and the rudders is keeping the nose up). Another 1/8th roll to about 115 degrees bank angle, and elevator is decreasing (since it is now introducing an undesired nose down component) while right rudder is increasing until, at 135 degrees wing angle, rudder is at maybe 80 % and elevator is at 0%. The rudder is now doing ALL the work of bending the circle, and maintaining nose attitude. Roll continues, rudder is decreasing, while preparing to feed in some "push" elevator as the plane approaches inverted. At 180 degrees wing angle (inverted) I've got maybe 35% right rudder to continue bending the left circle, while "push" elevator maintains nose attitude. I'm halfway through the roll, and inputs are opposite of those I started the manuever with, since I'm inverted, right? Roll continues, I decrease rudder input since it is also introducing a nose down component, and increase push elevator until at 235 degrees wing angle (45 degrees to the inside of the circle, but inverted, right?) I've got 0% rudder and now maybe 25% "push" elevator, since the elevator is now doing ALL the bending and maintaining nose attitude). Roll continues, I decrease elevator input and start feeding LEFT rudder so that at 270 degrees (right knife edge) I'm using 50% left rudder to maintain nose attitude and maybe 10% push elevator to bend the circle. Roll continues, I decrease "push" elevator and increase rudder so that at 315 degrees, elevator is at 0% and LEFT rudder is at 80% and doing ALL the bending and nose attitude maintaining. Roll continues and by its 360 degree completion, I've decreased left rudder to the 35 degrees I started the manuever with, and it's right side up.

Those control inputs and approximate percentages remain true for all slower roll rates, and minimum turn rolling circles. Want a SINGLE turn roller, just decrease the roll rate to maybe 25 to 30 seconds per 360 degrees, and adjust the circumference of the circle so that you arrive at inverted flight and at the back of the circle at the same time.

Yeah, I know, lotsa words, but that's how slow rollers are done. Like I said, it IS easier to do fast rollers using elevator only, but a graceful slow roller REALLY steals the show.

Tim

Tim,

I think thats the most accurate description I've ever read of a slow roller. I agree 100% with your control inputs. I think very few people can pull off a precision 10 second slow roller. Its the faster rollers, were all the cheating comes into play. Because of the single vantage point, its possible to get away with murder. Thanks for taking the time to write all that out.

Kevin

360 degree outside roller, one roll from left to right
R=right, L=left, rud=rudder, elv=elevator, alt=altitude

level upright 0* 35% L rud bending L, alt elv
wings at 45* 45* 80% L rud bending L + alt, 0%elv
knife edge 90* 50% L rud alt, 10%push elv bends L
wings at 45* 135* 0% rud, 25% push elv bending L + alt
level inverted 180* 35% R rud bending L, alt elv
wings at 45* 225* 80% R rud bending L+alt, 0% elv
knife edge 270* 50% R rud alt, 10% pull elv bending L
wings at 45* 315* 0% rud, 25% pull elv bending L+ alt
level upright 360* 35% L rud bending L, alt elv


360 degree inside roller, one roll from left to right

level upright 0* 35%L rud bending L, alt elv
wings at 45* 45* 0% rud, 25% pull elv bending L+ alt
knife edge 90* 50% R rud alt, 10%pull elv bending L
wings at 45* 135* 80% R rud bending L+ alt, 0% elv
level inverted 180* 35% R rud bending L, alt elv
wings at 45* 225 * 0% rud, 25% push elv bending L + alt
knife edge 270* 50% L rud alt, 10% push elv bending L
wings at 45* 315* 80% L rud bending L+alt, 0% elv
level upright 360* 35% L rud bending L, alt elv

You can use whatever %'s of control inputs, the pattern stays the same...
Interesting patterns....kinda look like mirror images, if you flip the bottom one up to the top. I had to type all this out, just to convince myself that their really the same, but reversed. Hope it helps.

Kevin

You think you have a problem.
I can nail inside rollers but have difficulties smoothing out the outsiders!
What I've been doing for practice is rolling horizontal figure 8's. Aileron input remaining constant and concentrating on the elevator/rudder cross overs. It's kinda grovy once you relax into the mode. A valium helps... honest!
If your without prescription, take your old aeroplane, plenty of hight and just start doing 'em. relax... relax.. relax and let it flow.
May the force be with you.