Today I attempted the harrier, but there seems to be a problem. I cut throttle, slowly pull up elevator to get the nose up, add a little throttle to keep it from stalling. It's very difficult to get my plane stable in a 45deg angle. When I do manage to get it into a 45deg angle, the wings rock back and forth, sort of like protesting. And even when Im not doing any aileron correction, the wings keep rocking (swaying back and forth) by itself. It's definately not the wind, cos it was a calm day. Why is my plane so unstable? Is there something wrong with me or the plane? Do I need to adjust the CG back to do 3D manoevers? Im flying the Fliton Votec 351 with OS56alpha 4stroke. Isnt this supposed to be a 3D plane?

My 1st attempt on video here. 4:05mins onwards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LBdycAnXhk

Thanks for your replies.

"I cut throttle, slowly pull up elevator to get the nose up, add a little throttle to keep it from stalling. "

I havent watched the vid but right there is your problem. A harrier should be flown with a stalled wing. Try bringing it into a wall to almost a hover and harrier out of that so you are already past the stall point when you try and start the harrier. Remember when your in a harrier your not actualy flying on the wing but using raw thrust to pull it around and to keep it from falling out of the sky. Your wing rock is prolly comming from flying on the wing but right at the edge of stalling the wing. Once you are post stall it should be more stable.

Ken 4:

Hay there!! Ok, first ballance your bird well in the longitudinal direction. Do not use the motor as a ballancing point as it is offset for thrust in most cases. Check the rear limits of the CG and be sure you are in the ballpark there. I start out almost streight and nose up directly into the wind. Back off the throttle as you add elevator. If the bird will not hold a nose up attitude, move the CG back some more. Once there in the correct up attitude and the wings start to rock, use the ruddder only to get the bird directly into the wind. The wings should stop rocking. After a few adttempts, you should get things in the ball park and learn to get in front of the wing rock with your ailerons once the speed and nose is in the correct position. If the bird is ballanced correctly and is truly a 3D bird, you should be able to fly into a nose up stall, and come down in the correct attatidude with elevator full up, no power and not much travel forward. Keep her into the wind with rudder only. If you use ailerons, your usually going to just add to the rock. Once you are into things, you will be able to stop the occasional rocking. You may be trying to hold the nose up to much, try adjusting this attitude. If you continue having problems, have a good 3D pilot fly it and see if he has problems. If a good pilot has a problem, chances are you screwed up in constrction and have the wing and elevator out of allignment. Have you sealed your hinge gaps in the elev. and ailerons? Start doing this on all your birds, if nothing else it helps to keep flutter out. Let us know how you are doing!!!! ENJOY

Just my two cents... Try a little spoileron. (Both ailerons up just a little, like 1/8 to 1/4 inch) Helps the wing stall sooner.

Watch and learn....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXElxV6uWdU

No matter how much people describe how to do it, you need to learn by seeing and practicing yourself. Good luck!

Thanks for all your advice. I've come to the conclusion that my plane just sucks at 3D. I managed to find my exact model on rc-sim.de

http://www.rc-sim.de/dl_engine_eng/c...216b23cb9bab08

I loaded it onto my Aerofly Professional Deluxe and it just totally sucks at 3D. Then I tried the Andrew Jesky electric version of the Fliton Extra 330s

http://www.rc-sim.de/dl_engine_eng/c...216b23cb9bab08

It was SOOO easy doing 3D. I was hovering, doing harriers, rolling harriers, inverted harriers.........piece of cake.

I dont think there is any point in modifying my plane to make it do 3D. I will just buy another plane that can do 3D. And for those that have seen the promotional video of the Fliton Votec351 doing 3D, all I can say now is that it is a hoax. Cut scenes & slo-mo make it look like it can do 3D, but in reality the guy flying it also cant hold a proper hover for more than 5secs. LOL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmz76KxsLP8

Thanks again for all your advice. RC universe rocks!

It doesn't look like that video was a hoax. Just somebody that really knows how to stay ahead of the plane. Some planes wing rock really bad, but can be controlled with aileron.

From you description of how you are trying to enter a harrier, that is a classic cause of wing rock on any plane.
Check your CG by performing an inverted 45 and watching the drop. 10:1 odds your plane is nose heavy. Once the CG is set, do an elevator by entering a straight downline then pull full elevator and hold it. The nose of the plane should come to about 45 nose high and stay there (a little throttle might be requried <1/4). Once in an elevator you can easily get to the harrier by adding throttle until the altitude loss is zero. You may have to jockey the throttle and elevator to maintain the harrier. Then use aileron to control the wing rock.

Also your lateral balance might be off.

Also simulators do not fly like the real thing, the model you got for the sim might not be that accurate, all of them require some type of tinkering.

The Andrew Jesky model has more than likely already had this done before they released it.

IMHO you're giving up too quickly on the Votec. Someone above said " Get an experienced 3d flyer to fly your Votec " , and I think that's good advice. Let an experienced flyer check balance , rates , etc. , and give the Votec a try. There is likely a "sweet spot " in upright harrier where the angle of attack is such that the wing rock smoothes out. You may not have found that spot yet. Some designs wing rock more in upright harrier than others.

3D on the Aerofly Pro Deluxe sim is , I believe , often easier than real life.

Anyway , give her another try with an experienced 3der - might save you the cost of a new kit.

Enjoy!

Dorin Luck

I balanced my plane laterally and moved the CG back about an inch. No more wing rock! It harriers quite easily now! Woohoo! And I can even do hover and hold it for about 5secs. Woot! Thanks again for everyones advice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM_78skOlKc

too high of wing loading. reduce weight. balance laterally.

You may still have to twik the CG a bit. It usually takes me about 10 flights to get it dialed in. From your video is looks like you may still be slightly nose heavy. You should have a very slight nose drop when in a climbing, inverted 45, and just have to breath on the elevator to maintain inverted level flight.

Thanks for your expert advice! I will try that!

Ken4... I agree about the votec video.... the pilot looked ham handed or flying in a lot of wind. I am always suspicious of marketing video when they only give you 5 to 10 seconds of continuous flight at any given time....

In the first minute, I saw the plane almost dig in and crash... when he comes around in the inverted harrier with the bleachers in the back ground.... it was all bound up and the quick push to vertical was a save...

I think it is a bit of a twitchy rock.... not the best 3D Trainer around.

Remember... Bigger = Better and Easier!!

Here is another example of how a plane should harrier.... notice how docile this plane is... hard to get in a smaller plane... though the Jesky Extra from Fliton sure looks to be good

http://www.giantcircus.com/Videos/SX-Cable-2009.wmv

I too am having problems learning to harrier. Holding full up elevator, any amount of throttle wants to make the plane climb. As described above, the wing is stalled and the plane is hanging on the prop. This sounds like you need a fair amount of throttle to do a harrier, correct? Next time out, I will try the wall, hover entrance into a harrier.

Hey guys, great thread! How do the 40 size profile 3D planes compare when doing the harrier?

Thanks,

Ernie

If you watch any experienced 3d pilot's, they never keep the throttle in one spot. You need to learn to "pump" the throttle. Each little gust of wind will help to correct the position of the plane. Also, most planes have a different angle that it likes to hover.

3D flying takes a lot of time to learn proficiently....Remember back to when you were learning to turn when the plane was flying directly towards you, or when you learned to fly inverted. I'm sure now, you dont even have to think about which surface to move

After a while, you will get "muscle memory" and you will stop having to focus so hard on which corrections you have to make.

I also agree (although it's a bad habit to get into) that spoilerons do help when learning to hover.

The only thing that hovers / harriers better than a 40 size profile is a 60 size profile

Just head over to the ****************** website to learn more....