Does anyone have any experience flying a clipped wing Mustang?

I've got a TF P-51D kit and I'm thinking about clipping the wings to make a Reno Racer. I'm worried about how it will fly afterward.

The results will be a higher wing loading unless you reduce the weight in proportion to the wing area reduction. Increasing the wing loading will increase the stalling speed in proportion to the square root of the wing loading increase. This will extend the take off run a bit and make take off and landings a bit faster. Reducing the wing span should increase the roll rate. Reducing the aspect ratio should steepen the landing approach a little with the throttle at idle.

hahum, if you really want to make a scale reno racer, you will have to clip wings "dyssimetrically" (not sure it's a word !), most of them don't have the same wingspan on left and right, as the goal is to loose as less speed as possible in turns, having more lift on the outside wing help to turn (in fact, to bank) with very small control deflection. Now, It would be perfectly fliable as a model, but you have to be ready for possibles snaps at high speed ( if you turn the other way), fast landings, and so on....

Should make a very "interesting" model, if not very relaxing.....

Bernard

First I have heard of that. Do you have the names of the planes with an assymetric wing trim? Rare Bear has the same wing clip outboard of the wing fold and it's the fastest prop plane on the planet. Pretty sure Strega and Dago Red are also symmetrically cut.

Just curious,
Don

To the original question, I trimmed one bay off the old TF P-51 (red box) back in the early 80's. I turned it into Dago Red. It didn't seem to fly any different than the stock P-51B that I had at the time. Just keep the airframe as light as you can if you are going for a major wing cut.

Good Luck
Don

Don,

Hum, I have to check, I am pretty sure I saw that on a 3 views for a Reno Mustang. The Macchi MC 72 has dyssimetric wings ( Am not sure if the Rear Bear is faster than the Macchi was....)

Bernard

Rare Bear is the World Record holder at 528mph over 3km. Fastest prop plane on the planet. The Macchi did a little under 441. Impressive for it's day but technology moves on (It still holds the speed record for prop seaplanes, though.)

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...ce/q0023.shtml

Don

i have a mustang that has had its wing clipped 2 inches. ive made a dessicion not to fly it due to wing loading, some odd 60-65 ounces per square inch. thats with a 62 inch wingspan, thats alittle high. Its slowly bieng built as Dago Red, i heard from a team member of Dago Red--the wings are clipped, of coures,but not sure how much.

I didn't know about the asymetric thing. Interesting. Anyway, you would think the higher wing load (induced drag) would negate the effects of chopping the wing...but everyone seems to do it...so there must be some advantage. I got to crew for "Precious Metal" at Reno this year and it's got chopped wings as well. (That's me in the green shirt with the pilot). Had a blast out there!!!

I was looking through all my Air Race books and the only mention of an asymmetric wing in the post war (1946-present) racing era was the much modified P-51 named "Beguine". This was the plane which moved the radiators to pods in the wings. The owner chopped the left wing down "shorter than the right" (doesn't mention how much). The plane crashed in 1949 which effectively ended the Cleveland Air Races (Well, that and the Korean War).

Nobody knows the cause of the crash but witnesses say he rolled rapidly to the left and then slow rolled to the right before crashing into a house. Pilot witnesses say he may have misjudged his turn into the pylon and tried to roll out but couldn't retain control.

Speculation of the crash on my part - Low time pilot and an assymetric cut on the wing.

Good books to get:
RacePlane Tech #1: Griffon Powered Mustangs
and
Raceplane Tech #2: Round Engine Racers - Bearcats and Corsairs

Cheers!
Reno Bound 2003
Rare Bear Fan Sponsor
Don

It's interesting that they'd move the radiators. The North American inlet setup made use of the "Merideth effect" whereby (I'm not an engineer...so have mercy if I'm not spot on with this), but the air rammed into the inlet and heated by the radiators passes out the back just under the te of the wing through an adjustable orifice. Using water spray bars in front of the radiators (as most unlimited racers do) helps not only with cooling but allows even greater expansion. The P-51 inlet drag is better than negated at the proper (speed dependent) setting of the outlet door. There's actually miniscule thrust generated! There's a plane in the works, can't recall the name, that actually routes hot exhaust into the expansion area behind the radiators to superheat and steam the water to further this Merideth effect. I believe this particular plane also uses an area ruled fuselage...the coke bottle shape above the wing...to increase the Mmo...to keep the the cross sectional area constant and help with the huge drag increase as boundary airflow approaches transonic speeds (even though the plane is subsonic). Hattend...I wish Rare Bear would hae raced this year. Huge dissapointment for everyone out there. Does the Bear use a P-3 Orion prop? Hope to see you out there next year!...Dennis

Here are some pictures of the "Beguine" P-51.

http://www.esparacing.com/aircraft%2...P51Beguine.htm
and
http://www.pylon1.com/airracers/airc...focus/beguine/

From the Pylon1.com link above:
"The idea that Walter Beech wanted in it was to incorporate the radiators in a wing-tip nacelle so you get a little jet effect from it. All a jet engine is: you build a fire in the middle of a nacelle - by putting the radiators in the nacelles we got a little jet effect and overcame the drag of the nacelles as well as cleaned-up the wing-tips. That was Walter's idea on that. When I told Paul what Walter wanted he said "Well J.D., that's a crazy idea! We ought to sink the radiators in the leading edge of the wing - that would be the cleanest". I said, "No Paul, I want them in a nacelle on the wing-tip. I want you to shorten the left wing 24 inches and I want you to shorten the right wing 30 inches, that's what Walter wants." And so he says, "J.D. you know, that's crazy! I'm going to have to fly this airplane!" I said, "Well, if you don't want to do it pack-up and come on home and I'll send somebody else out there that will do what I want." Paul then said, "Well, OK I'll do it, I'll do it." So he built the airplane with the nacelles."

=====
As for Rare Bear's prop, here is the history from John Slack (from AAFO.com):

Propeller goes as follows:
1969,1970 Stock stock length DC-7 Prop/C&S propellers
1971-aproximately1986, stock Aeroproducts propeller with M20A- 162-0 blades.
1986-1990 Stock Aeroproducts propeller with H20G-162-0 blades.
1990-2002 Highly modified P-3/Constellation propeller.
2003 Thats the secret now isn't it?

As stated before M20A-162-0 blade has the cuff on the trailing edge, H20G-162-0 blade has no cuff. Rare bear has never had a cut down Skyraider propeller.
John Slack

Air Classics I believe ran an article on Beguine a few months back. They said that on the ground, they'd have to spray water through the radiators just so it wouldn't overheat, as the radiators are located outside of the propeller's flow. I personally don't see the advantage of the tip-mounted radiators. Just imagine the weight of the extra plumbing and extra water volume required to fill the system. Also the large stresses put on the wing because of the extra weigt at the tips. I'd be willing to bet that just one of those tip radiators has as much drag as the conventional belly scoop.

Fastest prop plane in the world: Russian 'Bear', but those props are being driven by turbines, so they're kinda in a different class.

Clipping one wing more than the other is just asking for trouble...

The rules are for recips. BTW Fly Falcons...we have a beautiful 50 in our lease-out hangar. What a space ship!!!---Dennis

To topic at hand, Yes i have tryed this on a GE T/F P-51 mustang. and i can say it flew fine but take offs and landings had to be hot and fast. But with a YS 120 there was no problem If i had to do it over again i wouldnt do it to this airplane. If this was a bigger P-51 then i would do it depending on the kit. BTW nice name


BernieG

I think its safe to say you dont know anything about RARA

HighPitch, I'm not sure what you were saying. By '50' do you mean a 1950 Beaver, or are you referring to something else?

---hahum, if you really want to make a scale reno racer, you will have to clip wings "dyssimetrically"----

Just don't use the same techinique I used to clip the wing.

I was at a fly-in hot doggin my Mustang. This was the first time I had flown at this particular field. I went in for a low inverted pass. I was about 5 off the ground when I heard a whack and the plane looked as if it had exploded. It so happens that I clipped a support wire for a wind sock that was mounted in the middle of the flying field. I lost about 4 inches of one wing as well as a good part of one aileron. The plane yawed hard towards the tip that hit and pitched up. I was able to recover and land the plane. I had to hold almost full aileron to keep it flying staight and brought here in using the rudder. It was an ugly landing, but the only damage on landing was a bent retract.

There was a group of pilots in a circle talking when it happened. I'll never forget what I heard one of them say sounding a little puzzled, "I heard him crash, but he's still flying."

That's the last itme I want to fly anything with a non-symmetrical wing. Sorry, quite a bit off the subject.

Sorry, I meant a Falcon 50.

Ah, yeah those are pretty sweet.