This post is NOT being aimed at you LCS but rather the "sad" fact behind your post. If the above statement is true, that "not a thing" was learned from this, we as human beings have failed. To have an incident happen that involves flying our "model airplanes" near a FS aircraft and cause a "possible" deadly ending, well we BETTER learn SOMETHING!

Just a few months ago a father took up a campaign to ban aluminum baseball bats becuase his son got hit by a batted ball and killed while pitching a game. The bats were "legal", the balls were "legal", the field was "regulation", all the rules of safety were followed, BUT the boy accidently got killed. NOTHING mattered in the public eye about what was "legal", just that a boy died. The EXACT SAME THING will happen with RC flying if someone dies, or gets seriously hurt, and THAT is what we should learn from this incident.

I have made some pretty strong statements against anyone who is arguing "who is at fault", and I offer NO apologies...We're ALL at fault if that's all that matters is who is at fault. The incident has happened, key word is "happened", IT"S HISTORY. NOTHING said or done here can change that. The only thing we can do as modelers is assure it will NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. And as I said before and will continue to say, If you don't think a modeler should ground his plane IMMEDIATELY in the presence of FS aircraft, and would rather risk another incident like this one, then shame on you! I'm sure if you didn't ground your plane, and it results in a human being being hurt or killed, you'd sleep like a baby knowing "you had your rights to fly" around FS aircraft...

I think the difference is what you think a presence of a full scale plane is. To me it is not a plane flying overhead at pattern altitude of about 1000 feet. Though one should keep an eye on it. But instead one should land whenit appears to be heading toward our 400 foot limit. In some places helicopters have flown over with no time to land. In that case dive down and away, dump if it is really really as with this case.

I will never understand the current fascination with hovering an R/C model. I hovered my first model in 1984 or so. And I haven't done it again since then.

Just think, if the organizers had chosen an R/C pilot that knew how to do something other than hover, there would have been no incident at all.

I no longer fly at public events. I gave that up in my early thirties when I saw a few model airplane crashes at public events. One went into the crowd of spectators. The models all were piloted by experienced pilots flying well built models.

In my mind's eye, I keep seeing a replay of the incident where several jets collided at an airshow, dumping burning fuel and ravaged jet parts onto the flight apron. There was a solitary 15 year old boy standing right in the middle of a field of flames. That is still etched into my memory.

Oh, I forgot to mention - I worked in crash rescue while in the USAF. I've seen enough burned, mangled and charred bodies to last me a life time. I'm just glad that no one was injured or killed in this incident. This incident could have been much, much worse involving the same people and aircraft. They were lucky that it was not.


Ed Cregger

Ditto on Ed's comment. I flew on an AMA Airshow team here in the Midwest for ten years. From county airports to Air Force bases. RULE NUMER ONE:LAND when a man-carrying aircraft is in the area. Absolutly no exceptions. If necessary, run your aircraft into the ground if there is the SLIGHTEST chance of a mid-air.

Any questions?

Sure, I have a question:
What is the numerical delineation of "In the area",
how many miles and what alts?

Cause we have folks flying models on/near airports all the time,
and as Sport alluded to, 'in the area' is subjective isnt it

100' and 1/8mile is obvious,
but how far and far up do you consider "In the area" that all models at/near airports must land?
500' within 1mile? 1000' within 2miles??? What is this 'area' you speak of

I would consider "a FSs first pass over the runway" would explain it to anyone, considering humans were in the FS!!! But of course the guys arguing here put little emphisis on a person(s) being in the FS aircraft...they're more interested in their point of view being correct, than the publics view of modeling..

Simple: If you can see it, it is time to land. If it is close, put your plane on the ground immediately.

The purpose isn't to split hairs like a bunch of lawyers. The priority is to protect life.

I am not sure if this point has been made before, but from viewing the video, numerous people were standing RIGHT ON THE EDGE OF THE PAVEMENT. The width of the pavement at this airport is 50 feet. The span of a typical Cessna single is about 36 feet. No pilot would feel it comfortably safe to land with any sort of obstructions present on the edge of the pavement - let alone people. When there are people or vehicles or animals present on a runway, it is common practice to "drag" the runway to alert anyone on the ground to clear the area.

The pilot of the FS is understandably mum at this time (nor would I ever expect him to make any public statement, for that matter). I believe that his first low pass was to warn those on the ground that he intended to land and to clear off. There were were still people on the runway after his first pass, and he continued around the pattern for a second pass.

There is no requirement for radio communications at this uncontrolled airport. There was no NOTAM in force for the R/C demo flights on an active runway. From the standpoint of the NTSB and the FAA, I'm afraid this will be a slam dunk holding both the operator of the model and those responsible for allowing the model operations at fault.

There isn't doubt here about that. But when the plane is supposed to be in the pattern?

Well you would never fly RC in the Atlanta area. There is almost always an aircraft in the sky.

As common as it may be, it is illegal when people are near the runway, unless you consider flying 500 feet over the runway dragging. There are a few accident reports in the NTSB data base where the pilot was suspended for dragging the field when people were near by. I know there is at least one a construction crew working on the airield andanother when a executive jet flew over an airfield at low altitude. I have been repreminded for flying over a building at about 400 feet when turning crosswind too early.

The first low pass was illegal and the air boss should have told the pilot to leave the area when he did this. To be legal you would have to be actualling landing or taking off, not a low pass, not even a clearing pass.

Look this up in the AIM and other FAA documents. A clearing pass is to be made at pattern altitude.

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

Please site a source for this being "illegal" - from the AIM or an FAR, preferably.


Also, the "air boss" had no authority to direct the FS pilot, nor did he have a reasonable expectation that he would be able to contact him.
(No NOTAM for the R/C demo flights, and an uncontrolled field with no radio requirement.)

<h2><span style="font-size: larger">"</span>Sec. 91.119 &mdash; Minimum safe altitudes: General.</h2>Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

</p>

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.</p>

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.</p>

(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.</p>

(d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface&mdash;</p>

(1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA; and</p>

(2) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (c) of this section.</p>

[Docket No. 18334, 54 FR 34294, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91&ndash;311, 75 FR 5223, Feb. 1, 2010]<span style="font-size: large">"

</span><span style="font-size: x-small"><span><span>A low clearing pass is only legal if there are no people near the runway, so if you are doing this to determine this then it should be done 500 feet above the runway or higher. Also it becomes illegal if you continue to fly far enough from the runway so thay you cannot safely make a landing per paragraph (a). There is no such clearing pass proceedure in AIM other than flying over the airport above the pattern altitude to check for aircraft in the pattern, and flying at pattern altitude over the runway to check for suitability of the landing site to include people. You can easily see people standing or working on the airfield from pattern altitude. If you can't then your doctor should not have given you your medical.


</span></span></span>A competent airboss would have made it clear that the pilot violated the FAR and that another such violation would be reported to the FAA. That is no guarentee, but it would work in most cases. However I do agree that he should not have allowed the RC to fly back over the runway till the plane landed.
</p>

Our RCs, used primarily for entertainment purposes, and manned aircraft should not be used in the same area at the same time. It's that simple. The world is a chaotic place, sure there are regulations, laws, standards, and all those things but how often are those followed to or by the letter? Because people are far from perfect, we need to do what we can to minimize the chance that a mistake will lead to serious injury or loss of life. When dealing with an RC, most accidents will only lead to destruction of the RC and perhaps property, though we still take care to ensure the safety of the operator and other observers. When dealing with manned aircraft we have to have an even more stringent standard for safety, not just due to the fact the aircraft is manned but also the relative size of the aircraft. So taking care to not operate both in the same general area at the same general time seems like a simple matter of common sense.

Of course there are people in the hobby, in just about any hobby today, who seem to want to debate things online ad infinitum. And they are free to do that if they so enjoy it, but I think the lesson here is remarkably simple and it seems like this whole event was ill-conceived and that common sense and a few simple rules should be used to avoid future incidents like this. Because if people continue to mix manned aircraft and RCs in the same space at the same time, it's really just an accident waiting to happen.

"Sec. 91.119 — Minimum safe altitudes: General.

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing..."

I think that in this case a pretty good argument could be made that the FS pilot WAS attempting to land.



"A competent airboss would have made it clear..."

In this case there was no "airboss" with ANY authority.
(no NOTAM filed for the R/C operations)


The title of this thread was "An Incident with Lessons for All of Us"

I think the lesson is: If you are going to operate your R/C aircraft, you need to KNOW and COMPLY with the requirements of the environment where you are flying. In this case I have great sympathy for the R/C pilot as he was invited to fly at this active airport. However, those who invited him to fly did not obtain the appropriate legal clearance (in the matter of filing a NOTAM) to allow him to do so.

A low pass is proof that you are not attempting to land, especially with smoke on. Read the AIM proceedures for an aborted landing.



No airboss has any authority unless he is also ATC. There is no need for a NOTAM for events without aerobatics. In such events anybody can grab a handheld and call themselves air boss. Remember this is a private airfield, not public.


While I don't agree that they were required to get a NOTAM, I do think they should have, if only to close the airfield when RC is flying.

guess the guys at MileSquarePark ama club will never be allowed off the ground then

I cant wait to hear how close it has to be before you should dump your model
... any plane within 1 mile and you have to crash your model just to be safe?


..

Really?
I thought the fact that the FS pilot was in radio coms with the folks STANDING ON the runway would be a better form of communication than illegally buzzing them the first pass,
then intentionally forcing a landing on a runway known to have live people STANDING ON it
.... and for safety he was forcing that landing full throttle with smoke on

Is that what we are supposed to believe?
The FS was just intending to land on & run over the people he sees standing on the runway?
Or was there actually no intent to land ON those people, it was just a low pass from the start without ever intending to kill/land-on the people he knows are on the runway

Legally, I believe that this incident will come down to the matter of a lack of a NOTAM being filed by the organizers of this event.

NOTAMS are issued for any irregularity to the published conditions of an airport - even down to something as minor as an inoperative taxiway light.

Because there was no NOTAM in effect for this event, I believe that any rulings that may come down from the FAA or NTSB will find fault along the lines of an inappropriate use of a remotely piloted model aircraft at a active airport.

I'll revise my comment on what the lesson is here:
If you are going to operate an R/C aircraft, it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to KNOW and COMPLY with the requirements of the environment where you are flying.

100 % correct Silvaire!!

This is a private airport. I have driven by a private airfield on the way to my home town for years. It was basically a farm field with no lighting or marking and a power line right over the middle. The owner apparantly landed and took off under the power line. Do you think he needed a NOTAM? Please understand that requarements for private airports are (at least in some cases)non existant.

Also from the AMA letter.

"On the date of the incident the association hosted a by-invitation-only full-scale fly-in"

So this was invitation only so nobody could land except those invited who could have been told all of the details needed. So I don't see a legal requirement for a NOTAM, but not to say it was not a bad idea.

Gee, "take off and landing." What's that all about? Can't accomplish that at 500 ft.

The word that comes to mind with me, is "importance." And I've seen this a number of times with R/C modelers.
Some just think what they do with their models is more important than what a pilot has to do with his aircraft.

Sensible life long Pilots like myself agree, we cringe when we meet a fellow pilot with an Ego.

The same is with R/C modelers, ego's can be dangerous. Piloting aircraft has risks and so does R/C modeling.

With my life long background in General Aviation, and modeling, I can conclude that there should be no arguments or disagreements here. Investigators are being polite.

Some things are just obvious.

I've learned a great deal from reading these comments.

It just seems to me no one listens. When I am flying my airplanes I can "hear" a FS aircraft before it comes into view. I even hear them when I fly my gas and tuned pipe models. If I hear it before the spotters or other people I am flying with. "Where is the FS I hear?" That tells everybody there is a FS in the area. Then the non flying people at that moment can find its location. They can then let me know if the FS is flying over at a high altitude or lining up on the runway to land. In the meantime I drop to low altitude and get in the landing pattern in case I need to land quick.

I don't know maybe I am smarter than many and have more awareness of what is going on around me when I fly. All I know awareness and being safety minded events like these can be prevented. We have never had a helicopter sneak up on us either. We could hear it coming. A hospital is less than two miles away with a helo pad. So we are "aware" of that possibility.

"Awareness" and "listening" and "Paying attention" to what goes on around you can prevent many problems. When flying near a FS runway you HAVE to pay attention. That is fact.

If your "tunnel vision" is that bad you can't listen when you are flying. Then don't fly at a FS airport you are a danger to yourself and others.

The other day we were flying at a field that is NO WHERE near an airport. However A-10's from a base 100 miles away will do "terrain following excercises" and we know they are low becasue we have seen them before. I heard them coming and landed before they arrived. One of the three flew right over our runway wagging his wings. He knew we were there. He had probably had my plane on his radar until I dropped back below the tree line before he got to our location. My plane was safely on the runway when it flew over.

With screaming two strokes and gassers in the air, and a four stroke being tuned in the pits? Well maybe younger ears could hear that helio, but not mine. In general I agree with you. But to point out that around hear to never fly when you can see an airplane in the air means almost never flying. To not fly when you can hear an airplane, means flying maybe 20% of the time. But not flying when a plane is below pattern altitude means we can fly 95% of the time.

You have very very good ears to hear an A-10 coming. They were designed to be very quite when approaching.

Sport Pilot,
I think I read somewhere in all of the reports that this took place at the FS's home field. He lived there supposedly, and was returning from another airport. He probably therefore was "invited" to it, if he lived there or kept his plane at this airport.
I have attended some of thses loosely supervised, EAA type fly-ins like this before and if anyone wants to fly RC there, they are encouraged to do so by the FS pilots, but we are extremely careful, stay away from the runway and only fly with one or more spotters to keep an eye out for surprise traffic.

Absolutely I can hear them many others can too where we fly. Does not matter how much noise in the pits or in the air as far as models. I am not a spring chicken anymore either with over a half century behind me. Maybe it was my military training. A FS has different sound frequencies than a four stroke or two stroke gas or nitro. You have to learn how to identify the difference.

As far as landing Every time I hear a plane that is just not true. We identify its location and do a "threat assessment" to determine if it is coming near our field. A "possible" is watched until it is determined that it is not coming near the field. We have had days where the air traffic is almost constant all smaller aircraft. Many are flying over at well over 2000 feet and thus no threat. But being diligent in being able to spot the aircraft thus makes everything safer for all.

In many cases you will hear an airplane before you can spot it. We have had up to three minutes to bring aircraft in thus landing everything in the air safely before a FS plane lands.