An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
10-20-2010 | 10:00 AM
#101
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From: newbury,
OH
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
KidEpoxy,
I never saw anything credible that the RC pilot REFUSED to yeild, but that he was caught unawares and didnt have enough time to complete his attempt to yield.
I never saw anything credible that the RC pilot REFUSED to yeild, but that he was caught unawares and didnt have enough time to complete his attempt to yield.
I'm not even going to waste my time anymore posting with ANYONE who cares more about who was right than a life could have been lost. I just want to know if it's one of the RC guys defenders or family were in the FS plane, who they would blame...Lets just hope another incident never happens.
10-20-2010 | 10:09 AM
#102
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
The correct decision (admittedly in hindsight) was for the RC pilot to land and clear the runway after the first pass. Thats why I say I don't care what the pilot was doing on the second pass.
10-20-2010 | 10:11 AM
#103
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
I wasn't there but if the accounts that say the FS made an earlier pass over the field are true, THAT shoots down your statement above. The RC guy should have landed IMMEDIATELY! end of story....If he had, he would still have his plane.
10-20-2010 | 10:12 AM
#104
My Feedback: (102)
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Sport Pilot, perhaps you should read it again. Does it matter if it was a go-around or a low pass? Not really. If there is an airplane in the immediate area, you need to land. That is the take home message. Any time there is a full scale plane in the area, you never know the intention of the pilot, or what might happen to him, so you need to clear the area. It is plain and simple, they have the right of way.
10-20-2010 | 10:16 AM
#105
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: 3dsky
I have to agree with Airplane400’s response to jeffee. It was my first response to the video, and I cannot type what my true feeling are here. This incident gives another reason to hate guys that fly 3D. 3D pilots just hang in the way over the runway, this time it just happened to be a full size active runway. I do not care what the Air boss said the RC pilot should have seen that the plane was coming down the runway and held off flying until the FS landed, the FS was landing so why would you take up the RC planeThe guy shooting the video had time to film the FS coming down the runway. ? Sorry I do not see how this made sense.
I watched the video on the Corvette car club web site and I also read news reports and like most reporting everyone puts there spin on it and it never looks good to the public. “Toy airplane hits Full Size plane” No matter what comes out of the investigation the public will never read what officially happened and who was at fault.
The RC pilots that think risky demo flying helps sell the sport to the public will never help us keep fields or our right to fly RC. I think the risky full size flying that we see at air shows also is a bad idea, and it puts that activity at risk also.
Thank God that no one got hurt.
I have to agree with Airplane400’s response to jeffee. It was my first response to the video, and I cannot type what my true feeling are here. This incident gives another reason to hate guys that fly 3D. 3D pilots just hang in the way over the runway, this time it just happened to be a full size active runway. I do not care what the Air boss said the RC pilot should have seen that the plane was coming down the runway and held off flying until the FS landed, the FS was landing so why would you take up the RC planeThe guy shooting the video had time to film the FS coming down the runway. ? Sorry I do not see how this made sense.
I watched the video on the Corvette car club web site and I also read news reports and like most reporting everyone puts there spin on it and it never looks good to the public. “Toy airplane hits Full Size plane” No matter what comes out of the investigation the public will never read what officially happened and who was at fault.
The RC pilots that think risky demo flying helps sell the sport to the public will never help us keep fields or our right to fly RC. I think the risky full size flying that we see at air shows also is a bad idea, and it puts that activity at risk also.
Thank God that no one got hurt.
I don't really care for 3D, boring. But I don't see why hovering over an active FS runway is a problem as long as there is a set time for this, the FS pilots are informed, the air boss is competent, and the pilot has a spotter. I can see how the pilot might have thought he was OK as both the air boss and video photographer could act as spotters, but because they were not a DECICATED spotter they did not do a proper job.
10-20-2010 | 10:19 AM
#106
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: bkdavy
Why is everyone ignoring that, according to Rich's investigation, the collision occurred on the 2nd (second) pass made by the biplane. Everyone on the ground had to know the biplane was in the area. Everything after that is intentionally accepting a risk they weren't adequately prepared to handle.
Brad
Why is everyone ignoring that, according to Rich's investigation, the collision occurred on the 2nd (second) pass made by the biplane. Everyone on the ground had to know the biplane was in the area. Everything after that is intentionally accepting a risk they weren't adequately prepared to handle.
Brad
10-20-2010 | 10:22 AM
#107
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
It doesn't matter how many times the FS pilot went around the patch, he has the "right of way", so to speak, and it was up to the spotter or air boss to let the rc pilot know where the FS was at all times.
10-20-2010 | 10:22 AM
#108
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From: Athabasca,
AB, CANADA
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
That is correct Tinner,
The law cannot protect in all instances, like I stated in my previous post common sense was left at home.
People like that deserve to loose his RC plane.
It is a 'privallage' to fly at a FS field. Some of you think it is a right. You got it all wrong.
The law cannot protect in all instances, like I stated in my previous post common sense was left at home.
People like that deserve to loose his RC plane.
It is a 'privallage' to fly at a FS field. Some of you think it is a right. You got it all wrong.
10-20-2010 | 10:24 AM
#109
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From: newbury,
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RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
100% correct Doc!!!
There is a live human being in a FS aircraft. NOTHING, NOTHING is worth more than that persons life, especially the RC guys stupid plane. If the FS pilot had crashed and died I guess he would still be at fault in some peoples eyes. I personally find it inexcuseable for ANYONE to devalue a human life so much, and question the right of a "toy" over a human. Some people sicken me...
There is a live human being in a FS aircraft. NOTHING, NOTHING is worth more than that persons life, especially the RC guys stupid plane. If the FS pilot had crashed and died I guess he would still be at fault in some peoples eyes. I personally find it inexcuseable for ANYONE to devalue a human life so much, and question the right of a "toy" over a human. Some people sicken me...
10-20-2010 | 10:25 AM
#110
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: DocYates
Sport Pilot, perhaps you should read it again. Does it matter if it was a go-around or a low pass? Not really. If there is an airplane in the immediate area, you need to land. That is the take home message. Any time there is a full scale plane in the area, you never know the intention of the pilot, or what might happen to him, so you need to clear the area. It is plain and simple, they have the right of way.
Sport Pilot, perhaps you should read it again. Does it matter if it was a go-around or a low pass? Not really. If there is an airplane in the immediate area, you need to land. That is the take home message. Any time there is a full scale plane in the area, you never know the intention of the pilot, or what might happen to him, so you need to clear the area. It is plain and simple, they have the right of way.
There is no rule that the RC plane land just because there is a FS plane 500 feet above him. It only says give right of way. That said model RC aircraft and FS aircraft have operated safely at a distance a lot closer than 500 feet.
10-20-2010 | 10:31 AM
#111
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
The incident happened on the second pass. Once the RC pilot knew there was FS activity he had no business being in the air. The airboss failed first by telling the RC pilot it was OK and the RC pilot failed by not telling the Airboss he was crazy. And finally, the FS pilot failed for not yelling into the radio to clear the runway!
But as you say, in the end the NTSB/FAA are the ones who will pass actual judgment. All the AMA has done is try to pass along the facts they obtained from actual interviews and a visit to the site.
I doubt the NTSB is going to put much fault with the RC pilot. They usually blame the pilot.
10-20-2010 | 10:32 AM
#112
My Feedback: (102)
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
There is no rule that the RC plane land just because there is a FS plane 500 feet above him. It only says give right of way. That said model RC aircraft and FS aircraft have operated safely at a distance a lot closer than 500 feet.
There is no rule that the RC plane land just because there is a FS plane 500 feet above him. It only says give right of way. That said model RC aircraft and FS aircraft have operated safely at a distance a lot closer than 500 feet.
Several years ago I was flying, by invitation is at a similar event. I had a dedicated spotter with me, and there was an airboss with radio contact for the FS operations. A pilot decided it would be fun to divert from the runway and fly over the R/C crowd which was about 500 yeards from the active runway. I was flying a large scale P-47. The airplane was making its approach just as instructed, then suddenly turned right and headed in our direction. I was at about the same altitude as the Cessna, which by the way was carrying several children for an EAA Young Eagles flight. I dove for the ground, and immediately landed. Luckily my plane was not dmaged, but I did not think about that in the instant it happened. The first thing that went thru my mind was I DID NOT WANT TO HIT THAT FULL SCALE plane, irregardless of who would have been at fault. After he landed the airboss gave him an ear full, but I decided right then that at no time do you fully know the intention of the FS plane in the area, and they may or may not see you. Most FS pilots consider these to be toys (which they are), but they do not associate the size and power of these models, and realize the danger. They always have the right of way, and if you are operating in the area with them, you had better be prepared to either ditch your plane or land immediately if you do not know what they are doing.
10-20-2010 | 10:37 AM
#113
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
That 40-percenter didn't just get there in the path of that Bipe for no reason, it took a lot of stupid moves and bad decisions to get it there.
10-20-2010 | 10:52 AM
#115
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Not only that, but the FS never had to think about it, he always had the rights to that air.
10-20-2010 | 10:58 AM
#116
My Feedback: (19)
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
There is no rule that the RC plane land just because there is a FS plane 500 feet above him. It only says give right of way. That said model RC aircraft and FS aircraft have operated safely at a distance a lot closer than 500 feet.
ORIGINAL: DocYates
Sport Pilot, perhaps you should read it again. Does it matter if it was a go-around or a low pass? Not really. If there is an airplane in the immediate area, you need to land. That is the take home message. Any time there is a full scale plane in the area, you never know the intention of the pilot, or what might happen to him, so you need to clear the area. It is plain and simple, they have the right of way.
Sport Pilot, perhaps you should read it again. Does it matter if it was a go-around or a low pass? Not really. If there is an airplane in the immediate area, you need to land. That is the take home message. Any time there is a full scale plane in the area, you never know the intention of the pilot, or what might happen to him, so you need to clear the area. It is plain and simple, they have the right of way.
There is no rule that the RC plane land just because there is a FS plane 500 feet above him. It only says give right of way. That said model RC aircraft and FS aircraft have operated safely at a distance a lot closer than 500 feet.
Of course, common sense would have given him at LEAST one spotter , and rules discussed before the flight to accomodate this unprecendented incident where a Full-Scale pilot comes home to the planned Full-Scale Fly-In fundraiser with his biplane and wishes to do a fly-by or two, maybe even throw in some smoke, and then land.
Think I'll do a video commentary.
~ Jim ~
10-20-2010 | 11:04 AM
#117
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: wahoo
<span class=''Apple-style-span'' style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''>Gerry,
</span>
What blackens our eye (the way I see it) is the fact that fellow enthusiast in this great hobby are persecuting the model pilot for the fact that he was flying 3D. I mean come on guys .. He was in fact INVITED to do that.<div> </div><div>There is plenty of blame to go around here so singling out the RC pilot is an error. </div><div> </div><div>The AMA report stated<font color=''#FF0000''> ''The FS </font><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><font color=''#FF0000''>arrived at the airpark and made a low pass down the runway.''</font> RIGHT THERE THE 'AIR-BOSS' SHOULD HAVE GROUNDED THE RC PLANE. PERIOD !!! </span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''>
</span></div><div><font size=''3'' face=''Verdana, Arial''><span style=''font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;''>It goes on to state <font color=''#FF0000''>''T</font></span></font><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><font color=''#FF0000''>he biplane then flew around the traffic pattern and was presumably setting up for a landing. The RC pilot brought his aircraft back to the runway and continued his 3-D (hover) demonstration.''</font> WHY ? AGAIN THE 'AIR-BOSS' SHOULD'VE HAD THE RC LAND.</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''>
</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''>Continuing with this drama it states<font color=''#FF0000''> ''</font></span><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><font size=''3'' color=''#FF0000''>As the biplane came around, the pilot apparently aborted his approach and decided to make a </font></span><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: medium; color: rgb(255, 0, 0); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''>second </span><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><font size=''3'' color=''#FF0000''>smoke-on, low pass down the runway.'' </font>FIREWALLED I MIGHT ADD. Now after the FS pilot made one low pass and knew there was a crowd and he still made the obvious choice to <font color=''#0000FF''><b size=''4''>SHOWBOAT <font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>and continue his own personal demo. So for all those that believe that the only ''showboating'' is done by those that choose to fly a ''stalled'' RC aircraft, the evidence clearly shows otherwise. </span></font>[/b]</font></span></div><div><font size=''3'' face=''Verdana, Arial''><span style=''font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;''>
</span></font></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><font color=''#0000FF''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>So right there you see bad judgement in all the </span></font>[/b]</font></span><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal; ''>parties</span></font>[/b]</span><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''> involved.</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>1: The air-boss </span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>2: The FS pilot and finally</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>3: The RC pilot</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>
</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>And for everyone that stated the RC pilot needed a dedicated spotter (while this may be true), the modeler did in fact have one that I personally would feel very comfortable listening to and I'll quote it right from the AMA report.</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''><font color=''#FF0000''>''The air boss elected to proceed by communicating with the full-scale aircraft through the use of a handheld transceiver while standing at the runway’s edge, to verbally communicate with the RC pilots during the flight demonstrations.''</font> Now who better would know the intentions of the FS pilot, a dedicated spotter or someone in direct communications with him ??? </span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>
</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>Now granted if this was a full on AIRSHOW with multiple aircraft and multiple demo's then I would have to agree with a dedicated spotter as the air-boss would have his hands full. But with only one SCHEDULED demo (42%) and one incoming FS (not scheduled) I don't see the problem. What I don't see is the intentions behind why the air-boss chose to allow the RC to continue his routine with a FS plane in the area. </span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>
</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>We may never know.</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>wahoo</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><font size=''3'' face=''Verdana, Arial''><span style=''font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;''>
</span></font></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>
</span></font>[/b]</span></div>
<span class=''Apple-style-span'' style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''>Gerry,
</span>
What blackens our eye (the way I see it) is the fact that fellow enthusiast in this great hobby are persecuting the model pilot for the fact that he was flying 3D. I mean come on guys .. He was in fact INVITED to do that.<div> </div><div>There is plenty of blame to go around here so singling out the RC pilot is an error. </div><div> </div><div>The AMA report stated<font color=''#FF0000''> ''The FS </font><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><font color=''#FF0000''>arrived at the airpark and made a low pass down the runway.''</font> RIGHT THERE THE 'AIR-BOSS' SHOULD HAVE GROUNDED THE RC PLANE. PERIOD !!! </span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''>
</span></div><div><font size=''3'' face=''Verdana, Arial''><span style=''font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;''>It goes on to state <font color=''#FF0000''>''T</font></span></font><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><font color=''#FF0000''>he biplane then flew around the traffic pattern and was presumably setting up for a landing. The RC pilot brought his aircraft back to the runway and continued his 3-D (hover) demonstration.''</font> WHY ? AGAIN THE 'AIR-BOSS' SHOULD'VE HAD THE RC LAND.</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''>
</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''>Continuing with this drama it states<font color=''#FF0000''> ''</font></span><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><font size=''3'' color=''#FF0000''>As the biplane came around, the pilot apparently aborted his approach and decided to make a </font></span><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: medium; color: rgb(255, 0, 0); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''>second </span><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><font size=''3'' color=''#FF0000''>smoke-on, low pass down the runway.'' </font>FIREWALLED I MIGHT ADD. Now after the FS pilot made one low pass and knew there was a crowd and he still made the obvious choice to <font color=''#0000FF''><b size=''4''>SHOWBOAT <font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>and continue his own personal demo. So for all those that believe that the only ''showboating'' is done by those that choose to fly a ''stalled'' RC aircraft, the evidence clearly shows otherwise. </span></font>[/b]</font></span></div><div><font size=''3'' face=''Verdana, Arial''><span style=''font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;''>
</span></font></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><font color=''#0000FF''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>So right there you see bad judgement in all the </span></font>[/b]</font></span><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal; ''>parties</span></font>[/b]</span><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''> involved.</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>1: The air-boss </span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>2: The FS pilot and finally</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>3: The RC pilot</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>
</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>And for everyone that stated the RC pilot needed a dedicated spotter (while this may be true), the modeler did in fact have one that I personally would feel very comfortable listening to and I'll quote it right from the AMA report.</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''><font color=''#FF0000''>''The air boss elected to proceed by communicating with the full-scale aircraft through the use of a handheld transceiver while standing at the runway’s edge, to verbally communicate with the RC pilots during the flight demonstrations.''</font> Now who better would know the intentions of the FS pilot, a dedicated spotter or someone in direct communications with him ??? </span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>
</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>Now granted if this was a full on AIRSHOW with multiple aircraft and multiple demo's then I would have to agree with a dedicated spotter as the air-boss would have his hands full. But with only one SCHEDULED demo (42%) and one incoming FS (not scheduled) I don't see the problem. What I don't see is the intentions behind why the air-boss chose to allow the RC to continue his routine with a FS plane in the area. </span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>
</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>We may never know.</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>wahoo</span></font>[/b]</span></div><div><font size=''3'' face=''Verdana, Arial''><span style=''font-size: 13px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;''>
</span></font></div><div><span style=''font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ''><b size=''4''><font color=''#000000''><span style=''font-weight: normal;''>
</span></font>[/b]</span></div>
I think that the fact that the guy was a 3D pilot is irrelevant. It could have been a jet, or a 1/3 scale P-51 or a turbine chopper. IF you are on top of an active runway, and there is a FS aircraft in the air, well, common sense would dictate not to fly.
The 3D pilot was a modeller, and as such he will be seen by the general population that has no clue what 3D piloting means in the first place, so, again, the black eye was had by our hobby in general...
Gerry
Gerry
10-20-2010 | 11:30 AM
#118
Joined: Jun 2009
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From: omaha,
NE
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
I agree, but a go around should be done at altitude, apparently the pilot was made aware of the RC plane and confirmed he was makeing a proper go around which would have been well out of the way. Notice the AMA did not say the pilot should have quit when the FSmade his first pass, but blamed him for not having a dedicated spotter. But most of the blame was to the decision to operate FS and model aircraft at the same time.
.
I doubt the NTSB is going to put much fault with the RC pilot. They usually blame the pilot.
The incident happened on the second pass. Once the RC pilot knew there was FS activity he had no business being in the air. The airboss failed first by telling the RC pilot it was OK and the RC pilot failed by not telling the Airboss he was crazy. And finally, the FS pilot failed for not yelling into the radio to clear the runway!
But as you say, in the end the NTSB/FAA are the ones who will pass actual judgment. All the AMA has done is try to pass along the facts they obtained from actual interviews and a visit to the site.
I doubt the NTSB is going to put much fault with the RC pilot. They usually blame the pilot.
Sport- You keep saying a "go-around" should be done at altitude. I think that kinda defeats the purpose of a "go-around." A "go-around" is used when something is preventing the aircraft from landing safely on the runway of intended use. So a "go-around" can be executed at one foot. Although in this case it does not really matter what the Biplane pilots intentions were, common since saysRC airplane should land at the first sign of full scale activity
10-20-2010 | 11:53 AM
#119
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: TexasSkyPilot
Gee, then. Do you think it had to be in writing that he move his RC aircraft off of the runway until the all-clear was given? Common sense would have it grounded. Having it in the air at all created an element of risk.
Of course, common sense would have given him at LEAST one spotter , and rules discussed before the flight to accomodate this unprecendented incident where a Full-Scale pilot comes home to the planned Full-Scale Fly-In fundraiser with his biplane and wishes to do a fly-by or two, maybe even throw in some smoke, and then land.
Think I'll do a video commentary.
~ Jim ~
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
There is no rule that the RC plane land just because there is a FS plane 500 feet above him. It only says give right of way. That said model RC aircraft and FS aircraft have operated safely at a distance a lot closer than 500 feet.
ORIGINAL: DocYates
Sport Pilot, perhaps you should read it again. Does it matter if it was a go-around or a low pass? Not really. If there is an airplane in the immediate area, you need to land. That is the take home message. Any time there is a full scale plane in the area, you never know the intention of the pilot, or what might happen to him, so you need to clear the area. It is plain and simple, they have the right of way.
Sport Pilot, perhaps you should read it again. Does it matter if it was a go-around or a low pass? Not really. If there is an airplane in the immediate area, you need to land. That is the take home message. Any time there is a full scale plane in the area, you never know the intention of the pilot, or what might happen to him, so you need to clear the area. It is plain and simple, they have the right of way.
There is no rule that the RC plane land just because there is a FS plane 500 feet above him. It only says give right of way. That said model RC aircraft and FS aircraft have operated safely at a distance a lot closer than 500 feet.
Of course, common sense would have given him at LEAST one spotter , and rules discussed before the flight to accomodate this unprecendented incident where a Full-Scale pilot comes home to the planned Full-Scale Fly-In fundraiser with his biplane and wishes to do a fly-by or two, maybe even throw in some smoke, and then land.
Think I'll do a video commentary.
~ Jim ~
10-20-2010 | 12:01 PM
#120
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Sport- You keep saying a "go-around" should be done at altitude. I think that kinda defeats the purpose of a "go-around." A "go-around" is used when something is preventing the aircraft from landing safely on the runway of intended use. So a "go-around" can be executed at one foot. Although in this case it does not really matter what the Biplane pilots intentions were, common since says RC airplane should land at the first sign of full scale activity
10-20-2010 | 12:07 PM
#121
Senior Member
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From: San Antonio,
TX
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
TSP-
Gee, then. Do you think it had to be in writing that he move his RC aircraft off of the runway until the all-clear was given? Common sense would have it grounded. Having it in the air at all created an element of risk.
whats this?
Someone can give an 'all clear'?
Just who would be giving that clearance, mayhaps the guy that JUST GAVE IT to the rc pilot in the first place?
You state you wanted the RC guy to wait for an All Clear,
I ask: Since he was already given one, what more do you want?
Maybe what you really wanted was someone, ANYONE, to change that rc pilots status off of the all-clear to something more like "Incoming, clear the active" or "Look Out!!! Dump It NOW!!"
Sure seems the rc guy should have been told to clear the active and stay behind the HoldShort line
till they active was cleared by the airboss
So,
a) Who would be the one giving the All-Clear
b) Didnt the rc guy already have that, when the airboss radioing the FS gave the rc permission to start his show
There is no rule that the RC plane land just because there is a FS plane 500 feet above him. It only says give right of way. That said model RC aircraft and FS aircraft have operated safely at a distance a lot closer than 500 feet.
Gee, then. Do you think it had to be in writing that he move his RC aircraft off of the runway until the all-clear was given? Common sense would have it grounded. Having it in the air at all created an element of risk.
Someone can give an 'all clear'?
Just who would be giving that clearance, mayhaps the guy that JUST GAVE IT to the rc pilot in the first place?
You state you wanted the RC guy to wait for an All Clear,
I ask: Since he was already given one, what more do you want?
Maybe what you really wanted was someone, ANYONE, to change that rc pilots status off of the all-clear to something more like "Incoming, clear the active" or "Look Out!!! Dump It NOW!!"
Sure seems the rc guy should have been told to clear the active and stay behind the HoldShort line
till they active was cleared by the airboss
So,
a) Who would be the one giving the All-Clear
b) Didnt the rc guy already have that, when the airboss radioing the FS gave the rc permission to start his show
10-20-2010 | 12:32 PM
#123
My Feedback: (102)
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
Good point![img][/img]
b) Didnt the rc guy already have that, when the airboss radioing the FS gave the rc permission to start his show.
10-20-2010 | 12:45 PM
#124
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
I can't believe what I'm reading.
With 30 years of GA behind me and five ratings, one being commercial, and another commercial seaplane, not to mention I haven't flown an aircraft in 15 years, I guess I'm forgeting things.
I don't have time or the energy to look it up, so I'm going to ask.
Where does it say, that a pilot who aborts his landing, has to climb to pattern altitude for the next approach?
A simple question from an old timer, and not much to ask.
I'll sign this as a life long aviator who has forgot a lot. That's for sure. [sm=bananahead.gif]
With 30 years of GA behind me and five ratings, one being commercial, and another commercial seaplane, not to mention I haven't flown an aircraft in 15 years, I guess I'm forgeting things.
I don't have time or the energy to look it up, so I'm going to ask.
Where does it say, that a pilot who aborts his landing, has to climb to pattern altitude for the next approach?
A simple question from an old timer, and not much to ask.
I'll sign this as a life long aviator who has forgot a lot. That's for sure. [sm=bananahead.gif]
10-20-2010 | 01:02 PM
#125
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
And he had it until the full scale plane showed up....
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