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Finding\Starting a new field

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Finding\Starting a new field

Old 01-04-2011, 07:42 AM
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siko_flyer
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Default Finding\Starting a new field

Hi All,
I thought the AMA area would be the best place to start this.I started flying RC 9 years ago and it was the
funnest,most relaxing thing I have ever done in my life(I'm 47).The last 3 years has been miserable.My home
field has become a battleground between the "fly around in circles" crowd and the "aerobatics,3d,helicopter and
jet" crowd.I fly everything from a stick,pattern planes,war birds,and yes the dreaded aerobatics and 3d birds.
The field is so divided that we park\pit on opposite ends,its really sad.We are considered the dangerous out of
control flyers,but truth be told more accidents seem to happen on the other end.We (the 3d\heli\jet side) are
constantly harrassed and threatened with being banned,there is an eagle eye on every flight we make.That
being said,We have discussed starting another club,as it is quite a drive to the next nearest field (75 miles
or so) that is large enough to handle the 50cc and up birds.My questions are,how have some of you located
your fields,how do you locate the owners of the land,and what exactly does it take to get an AMA charter?
All comments welcome,and thanks in advance.
Siko_Flyer(pronounced Psycho,not sicko,lol,a play on my name)
Old 01-04-2011, 08:03 AM
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yard-dart
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field

Get out and and ride! I'm sure there are plenty places out you way for a good flying field. Once you find an area you like, find the nearest house, stop in, and ask questions. You'll find out who the landowner is and then you can go to them and let them know what you would like to do. That's what I did. The result was us having a superb place to fly. By the way, we do have to lease the land yearly. Be sure to let the land owner know that you are an AMA member, which is your liabilty insurance. That's one of the few requirements to fly at our field.

The only other thing you have to do is decide on whether you not you want a charter, because it's not mandatory unless you plan on having sanctioned events (events recognized by the AMA). We flew at our location for about 3 years before we ever got a charter.

It's not nearly as hard as what you think. If you have any questions, feel free to call me any time, I'd be glad to give you advice.

John Kennedy
(318)381-9244
Old 01-04-2011, 08:06 AM
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littlecrankshaf
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field

ORIGINAL: siko_flyer

Hi All,
I thought the AMA area would be the best place to start this.I started flying RC 9 years ago and it was the
funnest,most relaxing thing I have ever done in my life(I'm 47).The last 3 years has been miserable.My home
field has become a battleground between the ''fly around in circles'' crowd and the ''aerobatics,3d,helicopter and
jet'' crowd.
I fly everything from a stick,pattern planes,war birds,and yes the dreaded aerobatics and 3d birds.
The field is so divided that we park\pit on opposite ends,its really sad.We are considered the dangerous out of
control flyers,but truth be told more accidents seem to happen on the other end.We (the 3d\heli\jet side) are
constantly harrassed and threatened with being banned,there is an eagle eye on every flight we make.
Yep, BTDT... It is unfortunate but that is a very common problem. What you just outlined was the situation here a few years ago as well. It is sad. I hope you get some good info here and of course the next time I see you I'll give every bit of assistance I can... good luck with your thread here... your going to need it! Stay TUFF...



BTW we are going to be flying at the TUFF field today...If you can, come on out... would really enjoy flying with you today. Our club president and many others will be there and we could discuss with you some of the things you are concerned with.
Old 01-04-2011, 08:09 AM
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littlecrankshaf
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field

oops
Old 01-04-2011, 10:50 AM
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combatpigg
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field

Pool your resources and figure out what your club can afford to pay a land owner.
Place ads in the gazettes and even Craigs list that will reach landowners in the rural areas.
There are a lot of non functional family farms that might be happy to make a little money on the side.
Old 01-04-2011, 06:20 PM
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Thomas B
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field

Based on some events attended in the Dallas area and some of the "interesting" rules at the field, I am willing to bet that the OP is talking about the Dallas R/C club field in Seagoville, Tx..........
Old 01-04-2011, 07:14 PM
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field


ORIGINAL: Thomas B

Based on some events attended in the Dallas area and some of the ''interesting'' rules at the field, I am willing to bet that the OP is talking about the Dallas R/C club field in Seagoville, Tx..........


Thats funny and sad at the same time.
Old 01-05-2011, 05:08 AM
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Lifer
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field

Several clubs I have belonged to over the many years that I was relocated yearly by my employer were built on top of closed landfills. The land is usually away from residential areas but has good access roads. It was flat, and unused. Check with your local waste disposal company and ask them about closed landfills and then go check them out.

After that, contact your local AMA AVP and get started with the Flying Site assistance program.

Good luck!
Old 01-05-2011, 05:28 AM
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siko_flyer
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field

Thanks for the tips,and I'll keep checking back for more.As for those trying to guess the club,
I have no response,as that would just be throwing fuel on the fire,which there is no need for.

Hey Little Crankshaft,woulda loved to come fly,but cant drive 100 miles during the work week.
One thing I can say,I have never had anything but a good time at the Tyler field,great group
of guys.If I could find a decent job there I would move back,since I did spend the first 20 years
of my life there.
Old 01-05-2011, 02:02 PM
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field

My advice is assume nothing...... Does the land have the proper zoning and/or designation in the county land use plan? If you are anywhere a major city you would be surprised how far out these plans control land usage. If it is agricultural land will your use change the tax basis? Clubs here in Florida have found that out the hard way when the landowners property taxes doubled or tripled because the three cows no longer were grazing on the land.

Local governments are looking for any way they can to get revenue and what "slid by" in the past may not now.

As for getting an AMA Charter you may find that the landowner is not comfortable without being named an "additional insured" on the AMA policies. That is only available through an AMA Chartered Club. All it takes is five AMA members to "Charter" a club and the cost with the landowner insurance is about $100.00.

Brad
Old 01-05-2011, 05:59 PM
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littlecrankshaf
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field

Unfortunately many people aren't aware that land can be used in a manner that virtually absolves the land owner from liability concerns for that use if for recreational purposes. In Texas, R/C model flying is specifically named. Sometimes scare tactics of liability concerns are (all to often IMO)_ used to sell AMA and or its charters... even by those that should know better...Oh well...


Just for your info Siko, here is some interesting reading:

http://www.recreationalaviationfound...discussion.pdf


http://www.huntingheritage.org/legal...y_to_one=Texas


Good Luck! You'll need it.
Old 01-05-2011, 08:56 PM
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Arbo
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field


ORIGINAL: siko_flyer

The last 3 years has been miserable.My home
field has become a battleground between the ''fly around in circles'' crowd and the ''aerobatics,3d,helicopter and
jet'' crowd.I fly everything from a stick,pattern planes,war birds,and yes the dreaded aerobatics and 3d birds.
The field is so divided that we park\pit on opposite ends,its really sad.We are considered the dangerous out of
control flyers,but truth be told more accidents seem to happen on the other end.We (the 3d\heli\jet side) are
constantly harrassed and threatened with being banned,there is an eagle eye on every flight we make.
I find those in the hobby that put forth such attitudes, and cause such animosity, to be horrible for the hobby (ie, the 'circle' crowd trying
to ban all other stuff). What makes those guys that way? What is the average age of the 'fly around in circles' crowd? Is it really just
the grumpy old guys? Or is there something else to it?


Old 01-05-2011, 10:32 PM
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bigugly
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field

Yes it is the grumpy old guys but not all of them. (55+)

My theory on why they are the way they are is, I think they are jealous of anyone who is capable of making turns in both directions and landing a plane with out bouncing ten times and ripping the gear out. Amongst other things but I think it boils down to that. Its very sad and other wise ruining a otherwise beautiful place to fly.

I personally hate to let them win by flying elsewhere, but its getting real old. They can have their "cub country club"

Old 01-06-2011, 03:23 AM
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Luchnia
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field


ORIGINAL: bigugly

Yes it is the grumpy old guys but not all of them. (55+)

My theory on why they are the way they are is, I think they are jealous of anyone who is capable of making turns in both directions and landing a plane with out bouncing ten times and ripping the gear out. Amongst other things but I think it boils down to that. Its very sad and other wise ruining a otherwise beautiful place to fly.

I personally hate to let them win by flying elsewhere, but its getting real old. They can have their ''cub country club''

I like to fly all sorts of ways and styles. I have seen both sides of this fence though. I remember some guys flying circuits (I was flying circuits just out of respect for those guys) and one guy was flying his heli and wipped accross the runway and almost caused some major crapola! I had already landed my plane because I was already aware of this issue with the heli guy. I have seen him do some strange things before and when he cranks up I land my aircraft.

Needless to state, this event did upset some of the guys flying their circuits and I could see why it did. I guess it begs the question, why we cannot all get along It is one thing to abrupt the standard flying pattern and not be respectful of others flying styles. If 3 or 4 planes are flying and no one is doing 3D, then it is sort of distasteful to jump up in the flight pattern and start 3D flying [X(]

I wish you good fortune finding a field to fly at, land to rent, etc. Keep pressing until you find something. I was fortunate this past year to find another club to join which only has about ten guys that don't fly all that much. I sort of feel alone there, but WOW can I spend some time flying now! Instead of staying all day to get in 10 or 12 flights, I can fly all I want load my car and go home in a third of the time
Old 01-06-2011, 07:14 AM
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siko_flyer
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field

Lets stick to the reason for this thread,How to find\start a new field.
Old 01-06-2011, 12:07 PM
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field


ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

Unfortunately many people aren't aware that land can be used in a manner that virtually absolves the land owner from liability concerns for that use if for recreational purposes. In Texas, R/C model flying is specifically named. Sometimes scare tactics of liability concerns are (all to often IMO)_ used to sell AMA and or its charters... even by those that should know better...Oh well...


Just for your info Siko, here is some interesting reading:

http://www.recreationalaviationfound...discussion.pdf


http://www.huntingheritage.org/legal...y_to_one=Texas


Good Luck! You'll need it.

Yes some of us do know better then to rely on "recreational use" when leasing the land from a landowner........ oh well......
Old 01-06-2011, 05:21 PM
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field

I used to use a big long area in Sou. Calif. that a local land owner had. I used to test my models there. He said "no problem" with a big bona fide club using the property.

Told a local club (who was about to loose their lease on a spot) and in round terms they told me they would rather go out of business than to begin negotiations again. The club had near to like 35 members of which about 25 showed up each weekend.

Good by.


Wm.
Old 01-06-2011, 08:13 PM
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bigugly
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field

The good thing about the DFW area is there are tons of big open fields within 30 min.

Im sure we will find something.
Old 01-07-2011, 07:20 AM
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field


ORIGINAL: bigugly

The good thing about the DFW area is there are tons of big open fields within 30 min.

Im sure we will find something.
Sounds like you guys are spooling up! Great! Just remember, don't poison the water in initial negotiations with prospective landowners with liability talk and stuff about 2.5 million insurance talk right off... That scares the piss out of land owners from the get go... if they ask or have concerns about liability inform them about recreational land use in Texas... then if they are not quite set let them know that you are AMA members with your own liability insurance... and if they are still not satisfied you will have them properly primed for the AMA club and the named land-owner insured route... It really matters the order they get their info... but starting out with liability concerns first and foremost is usually very counter productive. Put the fun aspects of model Aviation first and foremost and build on that.
Old 01-07-2011, 07:38 AM
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field


ORIGINAL: bradpaul





Yes some of us do know better then to rely on ''recreational use'' when leasing the land from a landowner........ oh well......

Yes we do... but we also can see through your thin veiled attempt to infer someone might use recreational drugs... but that someone is not me... poor form IMO for you to do such and should give insight into your credibility or desires to just be a trouble maker here...
Old 01-07-2011, 08:08 AM
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field


ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf


ORIGINAL: bradpaul





Yes some of us do know better then to rely on ''recreational use'' when leasing the land from a landowner........ oh well......

Yes we do... but we also can see through your thin veiled attempt to infer someone might use recreational drugs... but that someone is not me... poor form IMO for you to do such and should give insight into your credibility or desires to just be a trouble maker here...
Now just whom brought up "recreational use" in this thread? And now just whom brought up the possible connotation of other then "recreational use of land"........... The concept of "recreational use" meaning drugs never crossed my mind, that you took it in that way is very telling.

Brad
Old 01-07-2011, 01:09 PM
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field

kinda seems like a no brainer.

Entity A (allegedly not an insurance co)
Will cover the first $2.5mil of liability against a landowner derived from model aircraft flyers on his land

Enitity B (also not an insurance co)
Protects landowners against any liability derived from model aircraft flyers on his land

If Texas law will stop the landowner from getting sued from recreators being on his land
(including by name Model Aircraft)
why would a landowner care if he gets $500k/$1mil/$2mil insurance
when he wont need any of it per Texas law?



Wanna make a landowner comfortable letting Model Aircraft fliers use his land?
Either pay an insurance co to provide the land owner with some $ of liability insurance protecting him (AMA?),
or live in Texas where the landowner cant get sued for recreation(Model Aircraft) on his land
... paying the first $2.mil aint as good as immunity from responsibility


Sikio
,
remind whatever land owners you talk to
about the part of Texas law that makes them immune, and then mention that nobody in your group will fly without at least $500k pilots insurance (via AMA/PPP/USAmA/etc) incase the landowners stuff gets damaged
Old 01-07-2011, 02:14 PM
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field

Interesting provision in the Texas law........

§ 75.003. Application and effect of chapter
(a) This chapter does not relieve any owner, lessee, or occupant of real property of any liability that would otherwise exist for deliberate, wilful, or malicious injury to a person or to property.
(b) This chapter does not affect the doctrine of attractive nuisance, except that the doctrine may not be the basis for liability of an owner, lessee, or occupant of agricultural land for any injury to a trespasser over the age of 16 years.
(c) Except for a governmental unit, this chapter applies only to an owner, lessee, or occupant of real property who:
(1) does not charge for entry to the premises;
(2) charges for entry to the premises, but whose total charges collected in the previous calendar year for all recreational use of the entire premises of the owner, lessee, or occupant are not more than 20 times the total amount of ad valorem taxes imposed on the premises for the previous calendar year; or
(3) has liability insurance coverage in effect on an act or omission described by Section 75.004(a) and in the amounts equal to or greater than those provided by that section.

(d) This chapter does not create any liability.
(e) Except as otherwise provided, this chapter applies to a governmental unit.
(f) This chapter does not waive sovereign immunity.
(g) To the extent that this chapter limits the liability of a governmental unit under circumstances in which the governmental unit would be liable under Chapter 101, this chapter controls.
(h) In the case of agricultural land, an owner, lessee, or occupant of real property who does not charge for entry to the premises because the individuals entering the premises for recreation are invited social guests satisfies the requirement of Subsection (c)(1).

It would seem that if the RC Club entered into a lease where the lease payments exceeded 20 times the "ad valorem taxes" that the liability exemption goes away. Each state is different here in Florida there is no threshold.... if you pay for use, there is no exemption.

Another interesting consideration is section 75.003 (c) (3)...... The lessee/occupant (the AMA pilot) does have liability insurance through the AMA so the "recreational use" exemption may not apply to the RC pilot.

Brad
Old 01-07-2011, 03:03 PM
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field

Hi siko,

All the best to you in locating and securing use of a new flying site. Littlecrankshaf had some good thoughts with pointers to the recreational use statutes in Texas that may be useful to you. Inclusion of model aircraft flying in that law was initiated by some members of the A.R.F. RC Club in Livingston, [link=http://www.livingstonrc.com/]website HERE[/link]. If you are considering taking advantage of that provision in the law and need advice regarding it, contacting that club would seem wiser than listening to some jailhouse lawyer posting from another state or planet.
Good luck and hope to hear about your new flying site soon.
Old 01-07-2011, 10:13 PM
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KidEpoxy
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Default RE: Finding\Starting a new field

well, if we are gonna just start pasting in texas recreation law text,
lets get the important part too:

CIVIL PRACTICE AND REMEDIES CODE
TITLE 4: LIABILITY IN TORT
§75.002. Liability Limited

(a) An owner, lessee, or occupant of agricultural land:
(1) does not owe a duty of care to a trespasser on the land; and
(2) is not liable for any injury to a trespasser on the land, except for wilful or wanton acts
or gross negligence by the owner, lessee, or other occupant of agricultural land.

(b) If an owner, lessee, or occupant of agricultural land gives permission to another
or invites another to enter the premises for recreation,
the owner, lessee, or occupant, by giving the permission, does not:
(1) assure that the premises are safe for that purpose;
(2) owe to the person to whom permission is granted or to whom the invitation is extended
a greater degree of care than is owed to a trespasser on the premises; or
(3) assume responsibility or incur liability for any injury to any individual or property caused
by any act of the person to whom permission is granted or to whom the invitation is extended.

(c) If an owner, lessee, or occupant of real property other than agricultural land
gives permission to another to enter the premises for recreation,
the owner, lessee, or occupant, by giving the permission, does not:
(1) assure that the premises are safe for that purpose;
(2) owe to the person to whom permission is granted a greater degree of care than is owed to a trespasser on the premises; or
(3) assume responsibility or incur liability for any injury to any individual or property caused by any act of the person to whom permission is granted.

(d) Subsections (a), (b), and (c) shall not limit the liability of an owner, lessee, or occupant of real property who has been grossly negligent or has acted with malicious intent or in bad faith.


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