This is for all of you that think the AMA is an insurance company

This is for all of you that think the UMA is an RC organization

This is for all of you that fly park flyers and don't see a need for the AMA

This is for all of you that think the AMA does nothing but take your dues and misspend it or mis allocate it

This is for all of you that think that the EC and HQ are a do-nothing bureaucracy

READ THIS:

http://www.modelaircraft.org/templat...20comments.pdf

To all of the above: head for e-bay and unload your RC stuff while it still has some value.

To those that support the AMA and have some clue about what it does every day, day in and day out: let's hope they do it again as they have been able to so many times. Get out and sign up some members, we need the strength of the AMA more than ever RIGHT NOW.

JR

Your as nuts as the people you poke fun at if you think the 170,000 members of the AMA will go head to head with the FCC "IF" indeed they do pursue broadband over powerlines and it interferes with out "currenty" frequencies.

We got a slice of the pie over a decade ago. You think the FCC is gonna cave in to 170,000 modelers when they could potentionally provide broadband service to millions - something that has congress pushing for ever increasingly these days.

If (and note I say "IF") they do go ahead and these pans out to be effective/cost effective/competitive form of broadband I would bet that we will be looking at new frequencies REAL soon in this sport.

Progress is progress and it will run over the smallest group for the greater good - if you don't think so I refer you to the THOUSANDS of acres my family lost to the TVA in the last century.

Borzak

Number 1. The post was not meant to poke fun at anyone. It was to make them think and maybe to reconsider the position they have taken.

Number 2. If you read the information posted, you would find that we (RCer's) are not out there by ourselves.

This is not a new concept. I can remember reading about it at least 5 years ago, mabye closer to 10. The third thing that power lines can carry is your telephone service. Testing has already been approved in at least 4 states.

This technology can be made to co-exist with current technologies. The question is how much the FCC is willing to make the power companies spend to make it co-exist.

What makes you think that any part of the radio spectrum would be available if we loose what we have?

JR

I'm hoping that the AMA isn't alone in this. I would think Tower, Horizon, and all the others would step up and put up a fight. All of this BPL crap is a little scary right now. I would like to know where they are testing this stuff and if anyone flies near the affected areas.

Bravo, J_R. Well put.

JR is right and you are right.

The problem is that too many of us stay 'inside the box' on this subject. We already know that our frequency band is under multiple attacks from commercial users looking for a place to put R/C construction equipment (that was the last big thing, but there are others) right in the middle of "our" *HOBBY* (the subject of another rant elsewhere - and it really is germane) band.

Sandy Frank's "AMA - the glue holding modelers together" line needs to be rejected and rewritten to be understood as "Modelers, the glue holding the AMA together" as soon as possible. The 'command' mentality demonstrated in the first sentence is part of what has been hurting the growth of the AMA for years, and WE need to change it to address problems like the BPL issue. This same 'command' mentality is what someone spoke against elsewhere when they observed that the first actions of the AMA are always to infringe on your rights.

Right now there is a serious perception problem about what the AMA is and what it is good for. So the real question becomes what story can we develop that offers the non-AMA member something other than just the insurance tale? Remember we have to 'sell' it to our current membership first, so it has to undo all the damage the 'insurance only' crowd has been encouraged to do by our unwillingness to face the issue seriously and carefully.

For several years I have been speaking of spread spectrum as the only reasonable solution to the risks we take when we fly R/C. I don't think BPL will destroy that option, rather it will increase the necessity of moving that way. However JR is right, we cannot even go there without stronger membership numbers.

guys, every one that thinks BPL might be a good thing, needs to remember last week. do ya really want yer internet to be subject to the same failure rates as power lines? or yer phone.
attractive as bpl might seem, the blackout stuff will put it back on hold, yet again.
however, this is not to say that we, as a group, should not be looking for somewhere else to place ourselves. that is always just good forward thinking.

I read lots of rants about how the AMA should change its sales pitch from "insurance" to something else, but nobody has any suggestions what that sales pitch should be.

When I catch someone telling a potential R/C pilot about joining the AMA "for insurance," I ALWAYS chime in that the AMA is more than just insurance. That's usually replied to with, "Yeah, you get a magazine too..." I always have to explain what else the AMA does, but the potential R/C pilot's eyes just glaze over and they say, "Insurance...yeeeah...good idea..." If you can't sum it up in a 6-word sentence, and if it doesn't have anything to do with them DIRECTLY, it's more than the average person wants to hear.

Matt,

I could have sworn there were several alternatives presented in the last few weeks that would have served as a good beginning. Not that you are all wrong, but WE (you and I) have to change our story and WE need to tell others to do the same. Telling everyone that there have been no suggestions as to something else to say is not going to accomplish the task we MUST tackle.

I was asked to answer a question a few weeks ago. The questioner wanted a non-political answer to the question "What the AMA is good for if not just insurance?" I provided an answer, as you should be able to do. My point is that WE MUST SHARE those answers with many others. We MUST change the appearance of an 'insurance' scam. That cannot be done without some thought and pre planning.

By the way, the answer to the question is that the AMA helps you share your growth in the hobby with others. This hobby/sport is a technological social event and sooner or later most of us go to 'strut our stuff' for others at their flying field. Insurance helps the individual and the club, but the actual services the AMA provides make the social part of the event (non competitive or otherwise) 'happen'.

As a member of AMA, I don't see how the organization helps me share my growth in the hobby.

I have it because if I don't, I can't fly at the field because I wouldn't have insurance.

I have not seen or heard anyone from the AMA except through the mag.. and most of the time I don't agree with them. How would I know if they are working in "my" best interest. Did "they" get us more frequencies ... would it have happened in the normal course of things because of technologies and the manufactures input ... can't answer !

If we were able to get insurance ourselves, how many members would still belong to the organization and for what reason(s). That may be the key question to determine how the people feel.
Anyone complete a poll ? Anyone at AMA want that answer ?

I understand "we" have a great looking AMA headquarters .... but how many of the 170,000 members will use it ? Will they schedule more events for the "average" modeler there ?

Not trying to be smart, but it's only been an insurance org. to me.
And for the price .... it's reasonable .... keep the mag ...

Thats just my opinion ... I could be wrong ! ( Dennis Miller )

BPL is a MUCH larger issue to any ham radio operator, and many local radio operators such as ambulance, rescue, fire... BPL would basically close 80 meters through 6 meters, or at least put S 2 interference on everything. RC model use would probably be able to run as normal, as long as you do not fly under/around lines. for 80 meter ham use, the US using this system would ruin that band WORLDWIDE!!

Ryan
KC0LMO

If BPL is stopeed it will be the HAMs that do it. We could probabaly still fly, but as the last poster said, most of the LF HAM people would be out of business



Matt KGCRJP

Dennis,

The AMA does not help YOU with YOUR growth in the hobby, but it does assist you in showing off for others at other flying fields.

As for the frequency issue, my opinion is that you are wrong since the manufacturers had to spend new $ moving to the narrow band equipment. They hate having to invest more in their existing operations and the AMA used the FCC to force that issue.

The real question is not how often you have seen "someone from AMA", but have your (or your club's) needs been met in a timely manner. Can you easily communicate with your DVP or his assistants? That does not have to be a face to face communications, but the process does have to be free and open in both directions. In my district these days it does not appear to be so.

As for your poll, I don't think anyone wants to address that issue at all for the obvious reasons. I have heard (at several different locations) that if the AMA dropped the insurance portion of the "services" the clubs would leave in droves. Since there are limited definitions available for that word I used, services, that is not a surprise. WE need to change that and it will take the replacement of some currently serving DVP's.

Now when I got to your comments about the HQ building I agree that is a reasonably unimportant issue. However, YOU owe me a keyboard cleaning as I choked on a fresh cup of coffee when I saw your 'suggestion' about events for the "average modeler". It went everywhere! In the future, please be nice when you trundle comments like that one out there.

As far as stopping BPL, I really am not betting on it. My power company just (like 30 minutes ago) changed out the meter for one that sends the usage numbers in to HQ. Know what that means? That is one of many reasons I have been a strong proponent of spread spectrum. The writing has been on the wall for BPL for almost 15 years.

Mr. Jim Branaum;

Sorry you spilled your coffee, but I don't understand that reaction.

I just don't see the "average" modeler using the new facility very often.

It's good for contest and people that go to large events such as giant scale rally's. Does that cover a lot of people? Maybe I'm naive. But I don't know of a lot of people that use this facility, and I belong to a club of over 200 members.

The average modeler that I know about goes to the field a couple of evenings a week maybe, or for a few hours on a weekend.

Out of 200+ members we see the same two dozen or so at the flying site. So 170,000 AMA members means very few "active" members and even less "very active" members that would use the AMA facilities. That leaves a lot of us "average" members in my opinion.

Jim, I have no ax to grind here. I love the hobby, I accept having AMA "insurance". I think it's good for all of us to be covered. I am not into politics ... no time ... want to use my time for the hobby.

If I offended you, I'll say publicly I'M SORRY.

This forum was a rant ... but I can be quiet in the future as most other AMA members are. Opinions are just that .....

As for the frequencies, maybe the manufactures didn't like spending $$$ to go to narrow band, but they would have had to anyway. The airways are crowded and their technology would have failed.

As for the Club/Members needs being met. Our needs seem to be insurance plus a place to fly. The AMA did not provide a place to fly. Now, if they are Very Very active in the securing and keeping of our sites .... that would be the greatest contribution. That we need ... plus a reduction in the noise quotient ( to keep sites).

I also don't think broad band will be stopped.
But the interference can and will either be minimized or eliminated, somehow ... someway. Or ... thechnology will move to other bands. Technology will prevail. It has so far .... look when we only had seven frequencies and AM at that. We are doing well with todays electronic technology.


P.S. send me your keyboard for cleaning, or the cleaning bill.[B]

Matt

You just hit the nail on the head. Not only can it not be done at the club level, sending reading material such as membership manuals and rule books does not work either. The AMA Web Site does not appear to get the job done. Maybe a video tape, CD, or DVD produced by the AMA and sent to new members might be the ticket. I think it needs to be something with video. Maybe the members will watch a presentation on TV in the comfort of home.

Not a high dollar production. Maybe some well-spoken staff member doing interviews with the key people explaining what it is that the AMA, EC, and HQ staff do. A quick view of Muncie at the end. Don't waste the attention span of the member.

Send a copy or two to each club so that they have it available. It could be shown at a club meeting, or given to the press. If the truth be known, most clubs do not have anyone that really knows what the AMA is. Make something that explains the AMA, not another aeromodeling presentation.

Another thing that needs focus is for the AMA to get correct e-mail addresses at re-newal time. The list they have is always poor. Maybe a way to change e-mail addresses on the AMA web page? It seems like a lot of members change ISP's every year or so. Use e-mail for urgent issues where a member response or action may be required. Maybe just sending an e-mail to each new member with a method of changing his e-mail address in the future would work.

There are so many misconceptions that can never be straightened out except by the AMA. As MustangFan shows us, the concept of Muncie is not clear to the membership. The flying site is one entity. The Headquarters Building is another and needs to exist somewhere, even if there was no flying site. The people in the HQ building attend to the business of the AMA, with only a couple of exceptions that attend to the flying site. The third, of course is the Museum, which, again needs to be somewhere, flying site or no flying site (assuming that we want a history of modeling and I think we do).

Anyone have a better way to get the message out?

JR

yeah:

get "ahr nald"
interested in it<G>

I think there are more people running for governor in Calif than legislators in Texas willing to show up at the capital.

On the other hand, if you can recruit him, he might not make a bad spokesperson re: Charlton Heston

JR

Dennis, it is like this. You whipped out that arm twister about the average modeler and I coughed the coffee I was trying to drink rather than choke on it. That kind of made it splatter. No problem, my oldest wanted a supplement to his allowance this week anyway so I will just add it to your bill <G>.

No, you did not offend me and I would prefer to hear your opinions as they clearly indicate some of the problem. I think that many of us tend to stay silent rather than rock the boat because everyone else does. Sorry but (as I am SURE many will attest to) that does NOT describe me.

You touched on a subject that is important to all of us and I have a question, if I may. What do you think the AMA could do toward acquiring and retaining flying fields? This is a subject that many have concerns over and all (reasonable) ears are open to well thought out approaches to the problem. I have had a discussion about something that might be possible with Dave Brown, but it would require some MAJOR changes that I am not sure the membership would be interested in.

I wonder how many of the 170,000 members are "very active" members, meaning those who fly, therefore have much more to lose if we were to lose our frequencies? Those are the members who might bother to publicly speak up to help save our frequencies. Perhaps maybe 20,000?

It appears that we currently don't have a safety in numbers factor, but hypothetically, suppose instead of the current 3000 AMA clubs in existance, we had 10,000 clubs and each club had 500 members who would be "very active". That would present a good and bad situation. The bad thing is each club would have a horrendously over crowded flight line, the good thing would be that AMA would have a very improved safety in numbers factor.

The good, - safety in numbers. The bad - over crowded flight lines. And the ugly - our frequencies taken away. Some choice, but still a choice.

The communication industry has trillions to play with. How much does AMA and the RC aeromodeling industry have? Check related magazines. Tons of pages on trains, boats and cars, but very little on planes. Get the picture?
nascarjoe

I wonder not only of the 170,000 members who might be active, but also how many people who fly that do not belong to the AMA?

I see a lot of posts about fliers who actively fly, either on their own land or anywhere they can try to fly at, but do not or will not belong to the AMA or any other organization.

Now, if the FCC deems it illegal to use the frequencies that we currently hold, wouldn't it affect these, lets say, couple thousand fliers (I'm including park flyers as well)? If they could not be persuaded to join AMA or UMA, could they at least be encouraged to lobby? But how?

You guys are all giving more reasons why an AMA type organization IS important - to voice the stance of (RC) modellers so we don't lose the frequencies. Or if reallocation is required, we are not forgotten. I agree the Ham operators are probably more numerous than us. But we don't want to have our little part of the spectrum given away!

Everyone can go join UMA, and save their $10 per year or whatever over AMA. But then, will UMA pick up the slack in pursuing frequency issues with the FCC? Or having to deal with the security issues (model weights, autopilots, etc) that seem to be brewing in the background? Or keep you informed by sending you a magazine that shows several facets of the hobby?

(Oh, and supply you with a source for insurance...)

What some people here are missing is that WE DO NOT WANT TO STOP BPL. We want to happily coexist with BPL. BPL is good. BPL in its current form, though, threatens to interfere with all signals in the 2 to 80 MHz range, right where our R/C frequencies are.

Stopping BPL would be like standing in front of a speeding freight train and holding up a hand. However, if we, through the AMA, ARRL, etc. can help to get/keep BPL on the right track, everyone will be happy. People will have cheap access to broadband Internet, and we'll be able to fly our planes without being shot down every time someone downloads an e-mail!

MustangFan,

You hate the AMA, and only have it because you're being "forced by an evil monopoly." Do you realize how much you have to lose if the AMA wasn't there?

It seems that there is a constant, small, but constant, battle raging over our frequencies at the FCC. Who would fight it if not for the AMA? The radio manufacturers? R/C is small potatoes for the parent corporations of the manufacturers of our radio equipment. They only make R/C equipment because it's easy money. As soon as the going gets tough, and they have to shell out money to protect their relatively small consumer base in the USA, you KNOW the corporate bean counters at the top will pull the plug. If it weren't for the AMA leveraging the FCC against these radio manufacturers, we'd still have about six channels on the 72MHz band.

What happens when the federal government finally takes a good hard look at our hobby/sport as a whole, and decides that it's a "terrorist threat?" You think Great Planes and Horizon are going to step up to the plate and bat for us? As soon as the going gets tough, anyone near the top will cash out, and that will be the end of it.

See, the people that run the hobby industry could care less if the hobby lives or dies. If it's making money for them, it's all good. As soon as it no longer becomes profitable, or requires too much effort to make that profit, they cash out and go do something else...

The "strength in numbers" is not about how many members will actually speak up. It's about the number itself. The AMA lawyers and lobbyists will do the speaking for us, and use that number to drive home the point that there is a signifigant number of people out there who care enough about the preservation of their hobby that they are willing to shell out $58 to join an organization that is dedicated to just that.

Jim:
How to secure and keep a flying site – I would not even dare say I have THE answer. But, all of us need to be working toward this, whether it is local or national. We must Do “OUR” part with safety, noise etc..

Definition(s): (trying to establish some reference here)
In-Active member – belongs to club – flies maybe the last month of the season – maybe
Average Modeler – one who flies on a weekly basis.
Active Member – Flies whenever possible – mostly local ( die-hard )
Very Active Member – Gung-Ho Fanatic – Active in contest etc. at all cost

I don’t know what kind of image was conjured up when I said “average” modeler. Must have been a sore spot … but if I go with my above definitions, average would extent to Active Member.

Matt:

I have given the wrong image. I do not even come close to hating the AMA. I think it is to all of our advantage to be insured together and to have a strong voice in matters that are common to us. The dues are reasonable considering the total cost involved in the hobby. They could ( maybe should ) be increased, with the AMA being responsible for spending correctly and verifying the spenditures to its constituency. Lets take some examples of cost:
Club Dues – Local Site $120/year –they lease the land from a major OEM
1.8 c.i. 4-Stroke $400
Good servo $30-$40
Digital Servo $100
AMA dues – minuscule – not to be compared – but spend/act responsibly is all that a member requires (correct ?).

All:
Mainly I am reiterating some of the rants I have heard since returning to the hobby two years ago. Some people think that the AMA is not representing the “modeler” as it should, and not spending its money responsibly.

On thing I have noticed is the lack of young people involved locally. Maybe the AMA could sponsor a “Youth Program” as a way to increase the strength in numbers. Introduce a plan of action and a means of implementation. Possibly offer credit/rebates to clubs that sponsor and correctly document the implemented AMA program.

Another area needing support (authors opinion) is safety. Here we could use AMA’s guidance also. Some pilots are “signed off” too early, some inactive pilots seem to think that their skill level has been maintained, some pilots “progress” too rapidly to planes they are not qualified to fly (could be me). This may be a local site issue, but with proper guidelines in place, the clubs would have “authority” to enforce the “rules”. There is more to safety than the 55 lb. Rule.

These are just my thoughts. I have never discussed these at my field or club meetings …. Soooooo … please do not over-react. I will still belong to the AMA, read the Magazine and try to act responsible at the field. I truly do not have an axe to grind.

By the way …. This is the second time I typed this long reply. Seems that I hit a wrong button and lost the first draft completely. Is there a way to save long replys in stages so that all is not lost with a bad input (page change etc.).

BPL is old and has been banned in a couple countries already for the reasons stated above. We don't need it! Broadband over cable can be a lot faster if the people wanted it, paid for it, and the cable companies provided it. DSL can be faster as well.

If you want real, true, fat-pipe broadband, wireless can provide it. BPL is just an experiment in an old concept that will not work out. Those affected by it are too many, from RC and HAM to Police and Fire. I just wish they would let it die.

Dennis,

First is your last. The only way I know to do what you are trying to is to type your replies as e-mail to yourself and then copy and paste.

I like your idea of rewarding clubs who take on AMA 'projects' to open the hobby up to more folks. Now for the hard part, how do we make it work on a local level for younger kids? I mean most teenagers love the hobby until they discover girls and then they are gone.

Meanwhile many 'parents' of younger kids assume that those of us at the flying field teaching will also baby sit their children. I don't know about your club, but most in mine refuse to assume THAT responsibility. If the parent is even slightly involved and supports the kids efforts, that changes dramatically.

I know some of the local guys have taken a C/L project into a school system with out much effect seen after the project was done. That indicates to me that the parental support is the key to whatever task we take on. That might be harder to get a handle on.

Your definitions are not bad at all. I found it funny that you even suggested that many average modelers would ever have the chance to fly at Muncie. That is kind of like saying the American people own the White House. Just try to cook breakfast there! LOL

Your observations about getting and keeping flying fields are on target, and actually speak to something I have mentioned and think we need the AMA to do. I think that if the AMA DVP's should effectively address this issue in their columns rather that speak about Muncie and what is happening there. MA needs to include the EC minutes for every single meeting and the DVP's should respond to membership questions.

Currently the local clubs may not have a clue about how to look good to the powers that be. That frequently leads to the loss of flying fields. Problems crop up and the AMA is contacted late, or worse the activities at the flying field have made the local officials angry. This is more common than many of us are willing to admit.

It occurred to me that the AMA should spent more effort on effective communications between HQ, DVP's and clubs that included some success stories and public relations ideas with examples. We might be able to turn around the current situation. That is one thing I am committed to and have several examples available that the local DVP seems to ignore.