Let's just suppose the AMA didn't provide insurance anymore and said you are on your own. How many clubs would stay with them for the "other benefits". Hmmmmmmmm

jonkoppish said what is iterated over and over again. The AMA is an Insurance Provider. Strength in numbers hopefully gets us a cheaper rate ..... Does it ???

What if they don't post their Insurance coverage because it's not that good and they know it. Then they would have to sell us on the perception that they are not just an insurance provider but much more .... you get all this, but wait there's more ... havn't we heard this enough on TV?

If we must speculate on what insurance coverage we have, aren't we allowed to speculate on why they won't tell us???

As always we will let the people decide ( Bill O'Rielly - The O'Reilly Factor )

See this is what I mean. The good and bad . Who do you belive ?
[sm=spinnyeyes.gif] I will probbaly join just so I can fly with other people. Im in the middle of nowhere so I can fly anywhere really but its no fun.

Very well said.

I never have understood the reasoning of some people who seem to take the approach of "It's not much money, so you aren't entitled to question how it's used". If $58 per year is not enough to allow members to question how their money is spent, just how much is ? $158 per year ? $580 per year ? Can someone please tell me where the threshold is, that permits members to ask how the money is being used, without some others trying to dismiss them as cheapskates ? (BTW, I'm not referring just to posts in this thread, but to the numerous other threads like this that crop up on a regular basis)

Also, for those who think the amount is too small to warrant anyone asking how it is being used ... then (purely hypothetically, so don't start jumping to conclusions) how would you feel if you later found out that 5% of the monies collected by the AMA were used for model avaiation purposes, and the other 95% was used to support some AMA official's drug habit, or was donated to fund terrorism, etc ? Would you still say "Heck - it's only $58 bucks, so it doesn't matter what they use it for ?" Yeah - I know that that's an extreme hypothetical case, but sometimes you have to take an argument to it's extremes to see whether it makes sense. As far as I am concerned, people have a right to ask how their money will be used, and in the end their probing may benefit us all by keeping the AMA aware that it needs to be accountable to the membership.

In my case, I would gladly pay more than the $58 per year, if the AMA provided services that I felt warranted it. Right now, I'm not convinced that they do, but I live in eternal hope of improved insurance coverage, better flying site support, etc.

Later,
Gordon

Gordon Mc

Why don't you know how the money is spent?

JR

Your AMA dues were raised $10 for the year 2003 and until they will be raised again.
I have questioned this one item several times on the forums and also from AMA. NO ONE will address the question other than JR who runs and sticks his nose into the HISTORICAL documents called auditor's report, which is, IMO, about as valuable as the last toilet flush. Makes for a temporary good feeling but the same old stuff will come back again.

Now look at an issue of "Model Aviation" for 2003 after about the Mar. issue. (Any issue prepared in 2003)
Look on page 6 in the fine print on the lower left first paragraph beginning with "Model Aviation..." At the end of that paragraph you are informed, "$18 of the dues are for the subscription." Now look at a 2002 issue of MA and you find that figure was $12.

Regardless of how Holland thumbs his PAID-HELP OUTSIDE-AUDITOR's reports, SIX, that is 6, dollars of your $10 dues increase (SIXTY PERCENT) was allocated to the magazine which is now more colorful, and more of a carnival so Mr. Hunt can present his ideas of how a magazine should be done, from his home rather than in the office.

Insurance is not AMA's problem. Insurance makes a good shield for all that is going on otherwise. Until I have an opportunity to find out -- other than being told by someone -- I will never be sitting on the perch squawking, "Slip and Slide, Slip and Slide." If I am not afforded that opportunity then so be it. If I am afforded that opportunity and I find myself wrong, then I will be the first to say so.

I think you have touched on another reason why anybody joins anything. Some would say the real reason.

Why do you think people join fan clubs of sports teams? Do they sing at a game because they think their fan club dues have been spent wisely, or that their team's players are that bit better off as a result ? Nope, they sing because they get a lot out of being proud to be associated with their team. If, say, a Lakers fan met another Lakers fan in Rome, do you think they'd feel good because they have met somebody else who has contributed some money to their cause? Nope, they would feel good because they have met somebody else with their interests at heart.

I was at the show in Pasadena earlier this year, and saw a man buying his young son membership to the AMA. The boy was beaming all over his face. almost certainly because he had suddenly become a member of something he enjoyed. He'd really arrived. I can assure you he didn't do it because he could get millions in insurance, or entry into a competition.

Nobody here has yet mentioned that reason for joining. Its because of the pleasure derived from being a member of a club, gang, group, team, whatever you want to call it, that you approve of.

You can analyse where that money goes to until the cows come home, but it won't change the fact that we, like golf club members (who largely pay a fortune to 'play' in the 19th hole, not the other 18), or big sports club members who take a perverse pleasure in paying over the odds for a colored T shirt, (if it's the right color!) are creatures who take pleasure in belonging to a crowd with similar interests. Don't you remember the first time you got your driving license? Did you want to show it to everybody because the admin costs you paid to get it were a good deal?

The definition of a cynic is they know the price of everything, but the value of nothing. Cynics spend their time analysing where their money went.

I am a member, and gladly pay the tiny fee because I like to be associated with other RC flyers. They're a nice bunch.

David C.

Hi Gordon

It looks as though the punch line to my question is out.

The AMA Financial Report is in the AMA Member's Only Section. It is for the most current year.. 2002. along with the prior year, 2001 for reference. The only way to have a more current audited statement would be to have a crystal ball. Some have admitted to not being accountants. To some of them, the figures have no meaning. Marc, the President of RCU, asked a Financial Analyst to make a review of the 2001 Financial Statement last year. The result of that was published here on RCU. With the changeover, it may be necessary for you to ask Marc for it's current location. If, on the other hand, you have ever had accounting 101, you can probably make sense of the 2002 document on the AMA site. It is really not that difficult if you have even a basic understanding of accounting and you already know that accounting is an historical endeavor.

While you are there, take a look at the costs and expenses of Model Aviation Magazine. MA is exclusively owned by AMA. If you notice on p. 6 that was pointed to in a prior post, you will find a statement to that effect. Simply, it makes no difference at all which pocket you put your own money in, as long as it is all yours, and can be accessed as needed. I am relatively certain that you are aware of that concept, but, it does seem to be lost on some.

Perhaps those that have access to a crystal ball, that looks at the future, might want to use it to determine what the statement for 2003 will look like, after the year is over, and share the vision with us now. Some seem to think the EC is in possession of such a device. I assure you they are not.

JR

nicely put Gordon. Here is my opinion. 99% of people know just about nothing about Insurance. If the insurance company, agent, or sponsor can keep it that way, it's all in their favor. Why? Its called fear. You put fear into people, tell them what is going to happen to them (one in ten million chance of it happening) but you make it sound like it will. Then you tell them what they need which isn't always true, and then you sell it to them.

You see Gordon, they like dumb people, people that don't ask questions and just do what they are told. "just send us the money and you will be ok" "I'd send you a copy of the policy, but you wouldn't understand it". They think were stupid! Call the AMA once and talk to somebody like your a new perspective member. They will tell you right away how much you need the insurance. They don't tell you that your homeowners coverage will more than likely pay any claim you have WORLDWIDE! and no restrictions on where your flying. Yes thats right, you don't have to be at an AMA field, heck you can be flying in a farmers field if you like.

Oh but don't worry, they will tell you more about your AMA insurance the day you have a claim, thats the day you learn what you have. You learn your insurance is secondary. you will also learn if there are any exclusions that make your situation not covered. Personally I kinda like to know ahead of time.

Today I was delivering a FarmOwners policy to a local dairy farmer. Just for the heck of it I opened the policy and read the Section ll liability. I had to laugh even the farmer is covered for model airplanes. His liability limit was 500,000. He like many others feels perfectly comfortable driving his tractor, manure spreader, ect ....down the road. Dont you just love those sloooooow mooooving farm vehicles! I can't imagine needing 2 million dollars worth of coverage for flying a model, if your on the road with your farm equipment and carry 500,000 for that peril.

As long as they can keep the fear in modelers, as long as they can keep you dumb it's really in their favor.

I'm not dumb and I'm not happy about what they are doing.

John

Referring to who?

Well, that sentence has written off hundreds of thousands of people in one go.

-David C.

I think you'll find the premium for 2 million isn't going to be much more than one for half a million. Insurance is all a matter of actuarial risk, and the risk of having to pay out, say, 100K is hugely more than having to pay out 2 million.

Let's see what we are really talking about here.

I'm sure it's not the full $58 that people are moaning about, as even the tightest person would concede it isn't going to be free. Maybe, say, $38 is a fair figure? If that's the case then we are really talking about $20 being the excess figure.

This must be about the most talked about $20 in the history of the leisure industry!

-David C.

G'day J_R - long time no chat...

Actually, I was not complaining that I do not know how the money is/was spent - I was simply standing up for the right of people to inquire what they get for their money without being put down by those who seem to think that it is somehow sacriligious to ask.

Gordon

I am in agreement. I will take some of the credit or blame in this case. I submitted to the Publications Committee the suggestion that the Financial Statement be added to the items in the Member's Only section. In a matter of days, the idea was approved and it was put there. For all I know, the idea was already in the works. As I have often said in the AMA Discussion Forum, the only stupid question is one that is not asked.

I do get upset sometimes when the information is available and I even supply a link to it and it is not read, yet the rants continue. It sometimes appears that people would rather vent and post bs then to get the answers to the questions they asked.

I am not referring to you, Gordon, and I am not talking about the actual insurance policy, which I do believe should be in the Member's Only section as well.

I do believe that most members will not read it, or if they do, will not understand it. If Carl would produce a FAQ to go along with the posting of the policy, it would go a long ways to a better understanding of the coverage.

JR

one thing that any well run organization will have, is an estimated budget for the current operating year. what some have refered to as a crystal ball that can "see" the future.
why is this not published for member perusal?
i know that we "have" to publish ours for the 2 theater groups, 501c3, that i am involved with.

mongo

My wife is a financial analyst for a multi-billion dollar company. Her group makes a forecast at the beginning of the year and spends the rest of the year updating it to reflect what is real. I have often told her that her MBA should have come with a crystal ball. Not surprisingly, the beginning projection has little relation to the final Financial Statement.

If you want to know how the money is spent, you have to look at the Financial Statement. If you want an educated guess, that contains projections and assumptions of what might be, I suppose you would desire a budget.

Personally, I would prefer to have several years of statements that show a pattern of what has been, rather than what might be. That is what audited Financial Statements are for. It is the same reason I think the insurance policy should be posted. I tend to prefer fact rather than speculation. At the same time, I would suspect that if you were to go to Muncie and ask to see the most current projection, it would be shown to you. If you prefer the guesses, fire away, the forum is yours. Yours guesses are probably as good as anyone else's. Maybe you have a better crystal ball.

JR

mongo

Here is a little trivia test for you. Do you know who made the following statement while seeking the position of CFO of the AMA? Hint: it was taken from the context of a campaign statement.

"I have several financial people at my disposal all ready to give me the information I need to present a true factual picture of AMA’s financial position.

In no way do I even pretend to be a financial wizard."

JR

My last comment on this, so as not to get thread off track, but..

They are both very much like each other,

Both are made up members who have a national organization that promotes there hobby to people who are otherwise uninformed about it.


By the way, I agree with you, the $58.00 is not to much.

Actually, it sounds like he joined because your club CHOSE to be a sactioned AMA field.

Your club could go out and get there own insurance, then the new member wouldn't "have to join AMA for insurance" as you put it.

The fact is, that AMA chartered clubs only allow members of the organization to fly there on a regular basis. Kind of like joining a country club or a fitness club.

IKARAS1
Good for you,do your thing and enjoy yourself.
Like I said before ....send in the 58 bucks and be done with it !

Regards
Roby

58 bucks is not a lot of money, who said it was? I'll try to explain this one more time for those that don't get it. When you don't know what your policy covers and does not cover, it's not the 58 bucks that you spent that can kill you. It's finding out that somthing you thought was covered is not covered. Thats when it gets expensive. When your looking at a lawsuit and the AMA says "sorry according to our policy you broke this rule, that rule, you did this you did that, this wasn't here or that wasn't there, or you didn't have the number here or there, or it was too fast or too slow, wrong time of the day, the person was standing in the wrong spot and on and on and on.

In one the the last AMA magazine issues there is a tiny little article about fuel tank over fill, how it's polution if you over fill your tank and let the excess gas go on the ground. The AMA says this is polution. I totally agree! I have been saying this at club meetings untill I'm blue in the face. The AMA says "Polution is not covered" And it's pretty standard language I have no problem with that. Here is the problem Untill now I had no way to convince some of the people to stop overfilling onto the grass. Finally now I can say LOOK!!!! it's polution and it's not covered!!!! If someday we are required to clean up the spilled fuel, our club will have to pay, and I don't thinkk polution cleanup is cheap. Now they understand!

It's nice that the AMA told us about this one exclusion very nice indeed, but if telling us one exclusion is good, then certainly telling us all of the conditions and exclusions would be better. We have meetings each month, this is the kind of stuff we can talk about!

I'll say it again

58 bucks is NOT alot of money, but finding out you don't have coverage for something you thought was covered IS EXPENSIVE.

I would rather the AMA gave us no coverage at all, then to give us coverage and not tell us exactly what it is, and give us a copy of the policy.

At least if they told us there was no coverage we would then go out and seek coverage from a company that will give us a policy in language we can understand. INSTEAD OF THIS BLIND FAITH THAT WE NOW NAVE. We could call the company or agent, they are always willing to explain if you don't understand. I do this with my customers all the time. They ask a guestion, I say "get your policy and I'll help you" I refer them to the page and we read it together. Somebody keeps implying that we modelers can't understand something in writing, that it's better for us not read the policy. like a mushroom we are best kept in the dark. This is an insult to all modelers including me.

58 bucks is not a lot of money, but if the result is blind faith in something you think you have, only to find out someday that the rumors you heard were not true and you don't have coverage you thought you had, then even one dollar of dues was expensive because your blind faith just got you in a world of hurt.




John

just give us a copy of the policy and be done with it!

I must be missing something here. Could you put me right please?

You mention that 'dumb people don't ask questions' and that's why policies aren't sent to those who pay for their AMA benefits.

You also mention later in your post that the insurance limit is 2 million.

I looked at the details in the AMA site again just now, and they say the coverage is 2.5 Million per claim, with a 15M maximum.

Which is right, (2M or 2.5M?) and I can't understand why the details on their website aren't enough to satisfy the question 'What coverage are we paying for?'

I'm open to suggestions, as the thread has served to confuse a subject I genuinely thought was simple!

-David C.

No, he joined our club because he wanted to learn to fly and we were the local club that will can/will help him!!

According to our agreement with the facility that we fly at, everyone must have insurance in case of an accident and to eliminate the liability of the VA center..... As we chose the ama to cover the insurance requirements for our lease, we told him that he must join the ama for that reason. Since it is an ama sanctioned field, everyone that flies there per the ama must be a member of the ama. Now whether this is because the ama wants to make sure that everyone flying at the field has insurance coverage or that's it just an easy guarantee of extra money is another subject.....

I think we've kind of got this thing backwards. We didn't find the ama then decide that it was a worthy cause, then go and create a flying site/club for airplanes, jets and helicopters so that we could further the ama. Thru the ama we obtained the insurance required so that we would be allowed to pursue our interest in flying which allows US to create interest thru the neighborhood and city about aviation. The people involved in the hobby are the ones which give life to the r/c community, not the organization. I think if the ama were to fold (no I don't want this to happen!!) that another organization would take it's place. I also think that instead of competing against or filtering (ie, not allowing to participate in competitions etc) other organizations involved in the hobby, the organizations should be working together if what they really want is just to promote the hobby!!!! Jon

$58 per person is still $10 million dollars, and $10 million dollars to me is a lot of money.
If the AMA can't use it responsibly "for the people" then lets find someone who can.

The only reason the AMA has any power is because of "The People" ... strength in numbers.

If the numbers go elsewhere, then they cease to exist.
Many company's have gone out of business over the last 5 years because of "creative financing" and bad business policies.

If another group can replace the AMA even for the same dues, and "The People" go for that group because it is a better organization, then all clubs would require an XYZ card to fly there. It's not the dues in question here as much as how well are they serving their members.

I ask some members in my 225+ club about the AMA ... response "They're a joke"

If I didn't like my doctor or dentist, I would hire someone else.
For $10 Million we can hire someone else.
The problem ... get everyone to go along .... finding a better organization and getting the word out.

Another solution ... put pressure on the AMA to change their ways.
jrjohn ... keep the pressure on ... someone needs to start the ball rolling.
new officers (if you get in) ... keep the pressure on ... ask for accountability.

Oh, and the new building and such ... sell it to finance the new organization .Who owns it anyway?

I don't get this. I just looked in their website and found easily enough information to make me happy to spend my measly $58 with them.

What, exactly is it you are not happy with the AMA about? As far as I can see, all the details you have been asking for are there for all to see, just like any other organization. Details on insurance, balance sheet details. Are you suggesting the auditors are at fault for saying the accounts are accurate?

Why would another group of people, who happen not to call themselves the AMA be any better?

Could you spell it out to me?

Thanks.

-David C.

First of all David, I'm sure your right about the policy being 2.5 million. You underscored my point, I don't have a copy of the policy and I don't know the exact wording of the insurance contract. If I had a policy to refer too, I'd have know it was 2.5 million. Yes they tell you on the web page, but what good is it to know the policy limit if you don't know the policy conditions, definitions and exclusions? 2.5 million for what????

Mustang, you are totally correct, the AMA needs to get it's act together and start helping we the members. If we go elsewhere, they have nothing but I nice expensive building with a pond out front. The AMA is definatly leaving the door open, my guess is that somebody will walk through sometime in the future

John