I have been reading some of these threads for awhile now and keep wondering "why should I join"? It seems that most people only join for the insurance because there is nothing better out there. You cant join many clubs, with out AMA, you cant fly in competions without AMA, etc. I may be wrong but thats just the way it seems. Seems like everything you read has to due with AMA insurance. Do they set up booths at hobby shows to get more members, tell people they are more that just insurance? What benifits justify the $58 a year?

Have you checked their website?

It's something like www.modelaircraft.org

Lots of the information you seek there.

Good luck
Dave Olson

Yes I have checked the web site. But why do so many people still seem like its not worth it ? I have seen many posts that state if it wasnt for the insurance, themselves or their club would say no to AMA. To me it sound like the big shots dont do much for the little guy. Why hasnt anyone come up with something better? Or is it the "old timers" are just set in their ways and nobody is will to fight to change things?

There are some of us old timers that do want change and are doing what we can to do that. Back in '79-82, when I was your District VI VP I worked for change along with the late Earl Witt one of the couple really good AMA Presidents. We didn't accomplish that much yet what we did certainly had long range results.
Now at age 67, I am trying again to get into a position to again work for change in AMA directions, as I also tried last year.
Unfortunately the *young and smart* don't want to hear of politics, but just play with their toys.
That makes those *Old-Timers* without vision the absolute monarchs of the "status-quo".
There is a large amount of information within this forum, however very difficult to decipher at a glance. If you want to learn, then give the various threads some serious study.

If you don't join you will not get to fly or be a member of a club, it makes no difference how old you are thats life ! Change have to be made but us old crow can't change a lot of the younger sets mind and way's
PS You can fly but not AMA.

Actually, if they are doing their jobs properly, you wouldn't hear a lot about them- things would be smooth, and everybody would know what has happened. That is the ideal. Nothing works that way.
That said, there are large numbers of folks who can't stand rules of any kind, who don't believe that anyone has the right to interfere with their "fun", and that they should be able to do as they wish, at any time.
There are also large numbers of people who don't want to be bothered by rules, politics, or details. The hobby is flying-or rather, making holes in the sky- without the mess and fuss of actually modeling.

Why should you join?

For the same reasons you have RC as a hobby perhaps?

It's debatable how much, but AMA does a lot for us, and, put simply, they need support. We can't always leave everything to other people then enjoy the results of their work.

Is that a good enough reason?

-David C.

You need to ask yourself the question,,, What type of insurance do I have now that will cover an accident (property damage)or injury to a person that I caused while flying my plane?



BV

Rather, you should ask- Do I want more from the hobby than just a place to fly and insurance? If so, join. If not, please yourself and buy separate insurance. Or trust your homeowners insurance.

And so, my fellow RCer's: ask not what your AMA can do for you-- ask what you can do for your AMA.

Thank you Roger.

Your response is the correct one but it really is hard for many folks who believe the AMA is insurance only to see, understand, and believe.

For years we have told people that insisted on discussing the insurance coverage that the reason to do it the AMA way is logistical. You know, we know the insurance is good and cannot be canceled for non-payment like car insurance and it has a pre defined expiration date with well and widely published conditions and exclusions. Well that is only 1/2 the story.

The rest of the story is a little more removed from view than most will admit to because many do not see traveling and visiting other clubs even though the raw numbers of events and attendance indicates that a great many do. Getting AMA to join any given club is only the tip of the iceberg of what you are really getting into. Almost any club that has any kind of an event (competitive or otherwise) is probably going to ask to see your AMA card to let you play with them. Even as a visitor, you have to play by their rules which probably say "AMA member".

Since I know that you have recently relocated, I suspect you have some fresh experience in this very subject.

Are you a Berliner too?

-DC

\

Not only relocating, but visiting, too. I can visit my in-laws in Kansas, and KNOW that I will have a place to fly-a safe place. I can got to www.modelaircraft.org and find a club contact, and all I need is an AMA number- Instant guest! In fact, I have done this with the Wicjitas, KS, group, the Temple Texas club (who went WAYYY out of their way trying to find someone to open the gate and fly with me on a weekday morning!), and the Kennedale and Oyster Creek, Tx clubs, as well as 4 or 5 clubs in my new home in Ft. Worth. All I needed was an AMA number. I will join 1 or more of the Ft. Worth clubs, as all have been friendly and helpful.
As an AMA member, you ARE a member of a much larger fellowship- the modelers!
Roger

You generally see the same people *****ing and griping about the AMA costs and that insurance shouldn't cost that much. But they forget the AMA is an organization that promotes model aviation, not an insurance company. The insurance is a benefit of membership. Some of these people can be classified as part of the "instant gratification society". Others I am not so sure about, like the guy that will spend $5000.00 on his jet or giant scale plane, but still complain that AMA dues are expensive!

There are options if you don't want to support the hobby through AMA. You can purchase some land and get insurance. Others have done this.

I personally like to be part of an organization that promotes model aviation(all aspects), and be able to have the camaradarie of my fellow modelers while I fly.

See the postings for "interesting information" in this forum.

Jetts

The AMA loves to tell you it's the insurance that you need so bad, but in reality, it's rare that they will pay a claim for most people. The AMA insurance is secondary only!! If you have personal liability ie.... Homeowners,condominium or renters insurance, You more than likely have coverage for bodily injury or property damage done with your airplane by you or members of your imediate family living with you, and the coverage is worldwide! Not just at an AMA field.

If everybody understood what the AMA really covered, they might wonder what they are paying 58 dollars a year for. Have you ever noticed they don't give you a policy!! I called and asked to see the field policy, I was told by the AMA that they don't have it! The they told me that when they do get a copy, we will have to pay 5 bucks to get a copy even though we paid the premium for this contract. The AMA could be in for a little surprise if they don't start handing out copies of the insurance contract to each of it's policy holders.
Our club of 50 members sends nearly $3000.00 per year to the AMA. Its crazy because our club could sure use that money, maybe not as much as the AMA needs it, hey they have that nice new building, to pay for, salary's for all those employees, health Insurance, maybe some retirement plans, dinners, lunches, drinks, cars ect.....
I've heard that some clubs are dumping the AMA and putting the dues into club kitty. Like I said above, you alreay have personal liability. Every year instead of paying the AMA, you can simply call your insurance agent and ask him or her to issue a certificate of insurance to your club proving you have personal liability. Then your club can go out and buy premisis liability for the field, I checked into this already. The AMA told me it will cost 1,000 to 10,000 per year for this policy WRONG!! $300 dollars per year! they will name your landowner as additional insured. You will get a copy of the policy and so will the landowner. (unlike the AMA) What could your club do with the other $2700 dollars, I have some good ideas

jr

$58 per year?

About $1 per week? I bet you've got that amount kicking around in your car at the moment, and about 5 times that rattling around in your pockets.

Is that too much to pay for the representation we all directly benefit from?

See other threads in RCUm and elsewhere for what the AMA does for the hobby as a whole.

David C.

jrjohn,

There may be a time and place where you would want to have an unproven insurance policy issued by an unknown insurance company, but I can't figure out when or where that might be. Probably I am not into the high risk adventures that many take.

The common errors many make has to do with visitors and when YOU go visiting. Your homeowners is portable, but it is hard to prove you have it or that it is not canceled for any number of reasons, or that it will even cover model aviation. That might give you a problem at another field, but the AMA 'ticket' takes care of that.

The approach most take at first is that the AMA is not necessary, but this forum is direct proof that the hobby is a social activity. That means that significant portions of us travel and almost all clubs have reason to ask for 'proof of insurance' that I see as an AMA card. Your approach denies the social aspect of the hobby.

As for your initial implication that the AMA will rarely pay on claims is incorrect. I know of several different claims that have been paid.

jr

That's pretty interesting. I do have a couple of questions.

What are the limits on the premises insurance? What, exactly, is premises liability insurance, I have never seen that term in reference to insurance. What are the limits on each of your club member's homeowners insurance? How will you address the situation where a club member does not have any homeowners, or renters, etc. insurance? Who is going to make sure each day that the member's all have their insurance up to date and that it has not lapsed? Assuming you have your club meetings somewhere other than the field, who covers the club for those? Does your club allow others to fly there? Who will check all of these insurance policies for status on Saturday and Sunday when the Insurance companies are closed?

It could be your on to something, if you really have the answers.

JR

Jim, there is a good example of one that was paid several years ago, posted in this very forum titled 1.3 mil award to control line accident victim:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/1%25...1024370/tm.htm

JR

Jr I'll be happy to lay it all out for you.

1. Premises Liability will cover the club and land owner for bodily injury or property damage at the described location. (this insurance will be primary, not secondary) If you have never seen the term "premises liability" I know I'm talking to a newbie, so I'll try to make this easy to understand.

2. The limit I suggest being 1,000,000 per occurrence Most people don't cover themselves for more than 500,000 while driving a car. I think we can all agree you have a much greater risk of hurting somebody on the road, then you do at the flying field.

3. As far as the personal liability, I feel 500,000 is adequate It's rare that people have more than that limit for their personal liability, unless they have a personal umbrella. This insurance is also Primary, Not secondary as is the AMA insurance.

4. Club members that have no personal insurance? We don't have any in our club, and I'll bet you don't have any either. Who doesn't have a Homeowners policy, renters policy, or condo. Or live with a parent that has the same. As I said earlier, even a child is covered on the parents policy as long as he is living at home, or even away at school.
I find Modelers to be very responsible people, I don't think we have any street people flying in our club.

5. How do you make sure members have insurance? Very easy, we do this for business insurance all the time. As an Agent, we Issue a certificate of insurance to the party requesting it, lets say its the club secretary. The certificate can be issued with an "until canceled" date. If the policy then cancels for whatever various reason, a cancellation is sent to the club secretary. Easy as pie!

6. Off premises Meetings. Not a problem, additional locations can be named on the policy at no extra charge.

7. who will check insurance policies? this question does not apply. as I said earlier, a certificate will be issued by the insurance agent of each member. It will state the coverage amount and either good until canceled or an expiration date. Nobody will ever have to look at a policy.

This has been going on in the business world for ever. When somebody hires a subcontractor, or work with the same, we always have to issue a certificate to the business showing the contractor has prescribed limits of liability in areas such as but not limited too. General Liability, Commercial Auto, Workers Comp ect.....

Someone else said something about 'who wants to trust an unknown or unproven insurance company.' Lets just say this, Any insurance company doing business in the USA is proven. They jump through a lot of hoops and are regulated by the insurance commissioner of that state. They will even give you a policy!

Here's the beauty of working with a local agent or insurance company. First of all you have somebody that will give you personal attention, the agent will be responsible to you, not some person on the phone that you don't know. Second.... You will actually get an Insurance policy, YES an insurance policy! How many clubs have ever received a policy from the AMA for their Premises liability? Have you? (they may call it the "Charter policy" I called the AMA and asked why we don't get a copy, I was told we would not understand the language. OH MY GOD, this man had no clue. I was then told if we had a claim were just to send it in, and they will tell us if it's covered. I had to laugh about that one! How the heck can a club know whats covered or how to safely run the club if they aren't given an insurance policy so they know what's covered, UNREAL!!

When I told the above problem to a gentleman at the AMA who's name will remain anonymous, and I explained that each club purchasing Insurance deserves a policy and that it may even be the law that they receive one is some states. He told me I was wrong, and they didn't have to send out anything. Real nice, they tell you how important the AMA insurance is, but they don't send out a policy unless you actually request a copy and pay extra for it. Why couldn't they just post it on the website in an area reserved for members? Crazy huh.


Talk about an UNKNOWN Policy!!

Ya your right, I'm on to something.

Regarding the one dollar a week, yes it's not a lot of money, but give one dollar additional money to your club each week by every member. That's a lot of money!

Next........

jrjohn

Well, let's see. First off, what you described is Property Damage coverage, not Public Liability coverage. Perhaps you should get a quote on Public Liability coverage and see if your numbers remain the same. Property Damage is what I thought you described in your first post, but, I wanted to be sure.

2. The second issue is that the AMA coverage consists for three policies. The first is the coverage for members. It is secondary unless the member does not have other coverage. In spite of what you think, there are a lot of younger adults that rent and do not have any coverage. They are essentially judgment proof, so why should they? For those that do not have other coverage, the AMA policy is, of course, primary. Oh.. and let us not forget that the AMA policy is for $2.5 million.

The second of the three is a policy that covers the club for liability, which is primary. Since over half of the claims made to the AMA are of a "trip and fall" nature and have nothing to do with flying, this is extremely important. Again, the coverage is for $2.5 million.

The third, and probably the reason most clubs choose to associate with the AMA is the landowner coverage. This is a full blown liability policy. Not secondary, but primary. Again, it is in the amount of $2.5 million. I am not sure about your land owner, but, I KNOW that the one my club has sure as heck would not accept a reduction in coverage. And I know he would not accept Property Damage instead of Public Liability coverage.

3. You may feel that 1/2 million or 1 million is enough, but the guy that collected 1.3 million in the suit documented in this forum might well own everything you used to if that was all you had.

4. I am astounded that the average folks in WI carry $500,000 on their cars. I am in CA and the typical amount is $15,000 PD and $30,000 PL, while those that are more concerned might carry 100/300.

Homeowners policies in CA are typically 100/300 with some adding an umbrella for a million. Oh.... You might want to look in the jet forum, there is a thread there where a fellow has NO coverage under his homeowners coverage. Maybe you had best get all of your club members to request a statement that they are covered under their primary coverage from their insurance company, and not just from their agent.

It also surprises me that an agent in WI would write a policy with additional sites at no additional charge. The agents here in CA would not.

5. Insurance companies doing business in CA must give a 30 day grace period. Only after that grace period has ended would you then receive notice that a policy was no longer in force. Typically, you would not receive that notice until 45 days after the insurance had lapsed. The ONLY way to check to see if the policy is in force today is to call the insurance company today, at least here in CA. If that is the case in WI, and I believe it is, you have a problem.

6. Although local agents are very nice, most do not have the power of an agent to verify or commit the company to anything. Even the application for a policy is subject to the companies approval. Their agency powers are extremely narrow, in most states.

7. You are correct. The AMA has not yet received the written policy from the new insurance company. I am sure you are aware that the previous policy was a manuscript policy and that all the terms and meanings of that are beyond the comprehension of the average modeler. When your club received it's site coverage and the landowner his, the AMA wrote the coverage under the manuscript policy. You, of course understand this, but the average membeer and even the average insurance agent might not.

8. Of course, all of the other things, like being able to fly at an AMA chartered club, or in a sanctioned event are not important to any of your members, so that point is moot. We will also let the fire, theft, health coverage slide because it may be secondary.

Oh, the name you are looking for had best be that of Carl Maroney. If not, you need to call the AMA again and ask for him.

JR

Jr, it's difficult to talk or write to you on this matter, the main reason is, You don't understand Insurance terminology because of this your taking words out of context. I didn't just say "Property Damage" I tried to make it easy for you to understand so I said "bodily injury and property damage" This is public liability.


You have no clue what a certificate of Insurance is, nor do you understand the Agent Company relationship. If you understood what a certificate of insurance does, you would understand that the certificate holder is given ample notice of a future cancellation.

You talk about the low limits of insurance in CA. I assume you also have these low Limits? And if so, why then is it so important for only one small segment of your life to have such high limits for your wrongful doings? I'll for sure admit that CA and it's people are different, you guys make the news for crazy things on a daily basis.

If you are correct and people in CA don't have any insurance, then yes, I think the AMA is a wonderful option for you. have at it!

Jr, I will not be able to take the time to educate you on insurance, I have over 25 years in the business including Home office underwriting, and sales. I'm a licensed professional. You can say what you want, but so far you have shown me nothing that would lead me to believe you have any knowledge in this area.

I still get a kick out of the "we don't send you the policy because you wouldn't understand it" Lets go to court with this one for a second. Here it is....... A certain club has a terrible bodily injury claim that is not covered by the AMA for what ever reason, lets say it came under a policy exclusion. The club and injured party sue the AMA claiming they though it was covered. The Judge asks Your Carl friend why they didn't send a copy of the policy to the insured (club) Carl tells the Judge, "your Honor, we didn't send them a copy because we didn't think they would understand it!

OH my God I can just see the look on the Judges face when he hears that. I think we could go for a sumary judgment!

I have noticed one thing about arguing with people that don't have the appropriate knowledge in the area they are discussing. they will try to drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. I won't let this happen, unless you can talk or write intelligently about this subject, I will not have time to educate or help you any further. I guess your first message was not sincere, Your not looking for a better way or to help your club, your just looking for a fight.


Oh by the way, funny you should mention the name Carl.....

well, jrjohn, I am licensed in the State of Calif with causality and life licenses. So much for your conjecture. I have had the licenses for close to 40 years.

The rest of your comments come as close to a bluff as I have seen on here. Your club and your landlord did get a copy of the coverage, if the club chartered this year.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT A MANUSCRIPT POLICY IS? IF so. please explain it in terms that all of the readers here can understand. If not, go do some research.

JR

Fruther, let me give you a clue. The AMA is not an insurance company.

JR