JRJohn,
To your knowledge, has there ever been an rc airplane related claim to an insurance company other than the AMA when the AMA was not the secondary carrier?

Wouldn't it be an uphill battle to convince and educate them about the law and rc airplanes and how that applies to coverage after the fact? As the secondary wouldn't the AMA handle that aspect of the case for you saving you possible legal fees in fighting your carrier for coverage. I may not be as experienced as you in insurance but I've had a lot of experience with high liability businesses and a company that specializes in a particular field will serve you much better.

I think it's a heck of a lot easier to just join the AMA and I don't believe they are looking to deny coverage.

BasinBum

You are missing the point. The AMA is not an insurance company. The AMA is the insured. They are in the same position as an employer. You are provided insurance as a condition of your membership under a master policy, as is your club, and your landlord (yes, even the City of Los Angeles). Just as an employer generally does not supply the actual policy to it’s employees, but instead substitutes a general description of the coverage, the AMA does not need to supply the policy to it’s members. Apparently jrjohn is under the same misconception. I have neither the time nor the desire to educate him further. You, on the other hand, have my attention.

JR

Interesting thread.

JR,

Thanks for keeping things straight here for those of us not in the insurance racket...um I meant business

JR-
Why does AMA control the terms of coverage if it is not an insurance company?
By "terms of coverage," I refer specifically to the AMA Safety Code, which must be complied with as a condition of coverage, and which is controlled by AMA rather the entity that you recognize as an insurance company.
Frankly, I think the 'not an insurance company' argument is quibbling over semantics. The SIR is $250K, so claims up to that amount are backed by AMA reserves. Without having actual claims data available, I strongly suspect that the vast majority of them are for amounts below that threshold. In those cases AMA judges the merits of the claims and decides whether to pay or not.
I think it even the consensus of the EC is that most members join AMA for the insurance, either because they think they need it or somebody else requires that they have it before granting them access to flying sites.
Without the insurance business, AMA would probably fold.
What then is lacking from AMA's business that makes it not an insurance company?

Abel

J_R, you really surprise me. 40 years in the business and you didn't know what premisis liability was, Hummmmm.........

First of all I never called the AMA an insurance company. please copy and paste where I said that. They do however hold the master policy, they are the people that make all the decisions about the insurance, we the clubs and members are who their decisions effect. Clubs and Members pay the AMA We have the right to know what we have bought. The AMA is or only contact, they need to send us a copy of the insurance policy so we may ascess our liabilities and structure our club accordingly.

Thanks for using my line about me not wanting to educate you. I'll take that as a compliment.

To the readers.... Throughout life you will always have people telling you what you can and can't do. They usually have an ulterior motive for their position. Don't let anybody define your abilities to accomplish a particular task or goal. Only when we ask questions, only when we reach out and look for a better way will we truly have a chance to go foreword. Our country was founded on this spirit.

when somebody has so many reasons why something can't be done, even going to the extent of taking words out of context or showing so much hatred for a new Idea they loose the ability to think with an open mind. I know it's difficult sometimes in life to accept change, new ideas or concepts are often difficult to digest. Many people take the path of least resistance. Unfortunate indeed, as they are like a ship without a sail, drifting wherever the wind blows them.

The AMA needs to get a copy of the Insurance policy to each club. We modelers are not as dumb as J_r wants you to think, we can read, and if we can't we will have the option to find somebody who can. Manuscript or not, just send it out, or put it on the internet whats the big secret ??

Accordinging to the AMA they have not sent a policy to each club, where did you get that info?? Please J_R before you make spacific statements make sure they are accurate.

John

Able

To do business in a state, an insurance company MUST be certified in that state. In CA that process takes place through the office of the Insurance Commissioner. That alone makes it illegal for the AMA to SELL insurance here, or in most states. Since I do not know the law in every state, I can not say all states. This difference is one of the concerns of activating a captive and the reason it must be a separate corporation.

This thread has turned into a legal discussion as opposed to one that discusses the fact that insurance is the engine that drives the AMA. Look upon the AMA as paying the deductible of $250,000 for it's members claims. Although technically legally not correct, the concept is correct. The Safety Code is factored into the rates the AMA pays for insurance by excluding certain actions. That is why you and I, EC and a bunch of other people keep an eye on the Safety Code.

In discussing the coverage on forums such as this, NORMALLY, it makes little difference if the AMA is VIEWED as being an insurance company. Yes, it is semantics and of little practical difference unless used in a legal debate, which is what this turned into. Legallly, things like a "site certificate" have a very different meaning than a "site policy". They are related back to the manuscript policy which jrjohn is going to explain to all.

JR

Well ... let's see here ...

quote
"I know of several claims paid by the AMA"
several .... 170,000+ members and several claims !
170,000 times $58 = almost 10 million dollars per year ... and several claims.
They don't have an insurance policy to share with us that states the coverage?
We must pay $5 if they procure a copy "for us" 170000 time $5 = $850,000

Soooooo ... We don't really know what our $10 million dollars are for.
Maybe the person that said Expensive buildings, Health Care for Muncie, Retirement, Cars, Lunch's, Trips, Golf, and other benefits for the few is correct.

They are working in "Our Best Interest" ... and the world is flat .. correct?

But ... Just pay the $58 , get our cards, and enjoy the hobby. Somewhere, somehow, I'm sure the AMA does something ... but if it's not doing insurance, do we need them?
But if people have been trying since the 1970's to change the AMA unsuccessfully, what can we really expect.
Remember ... the officers and such are NOT experts at some of the things they get involved in (such as insurance), they are hobbyist or 'volunteers" ... so they will need to hire the experts, then expenses rise for all the activities. Let's get a detailed accounting of the expenses and see what our $10 million buys us.

But in the meantime, we will just let them say " we do more for you than insurance" without adequate proof, pay our $58 to get the unspecified insurance (warm fuzzy), fly our "Toys", and have fun. All the while being criticized that "WE" do not care enough for "Our" organization.

If we didn't use our toys, then the AMA wouldn't exist .... correct?

jrJohn ... your allowed your opinion just like J_R. Doesn't appear like anyone connected to the AMA has the whole story ... and the AMA isn't talking!

P.S. our club sends the AMA over $13,000 per year.

Simple..............for the most part,you have to if you want to join
a club and fly at that facility, or particiapate in most local events.

Seems strange that when I shoot my bow ,use my R/C boats and cars,
shoot darts,fly my kite,ride my go-cart.or launching rockets I don't have to join anything.
but as soon as I have a model airplane in the air ......look out !

A good example "might be" when I play,(not often now)baseball.
As a good short stop,it's my job to get the ball to 1st as quickly as
soon possible, so I rocket the ball as best I can for the out.
Think about that.....I am throwing a hard device as hard as I can
on the hopes that ,1 the other guys catches it and 2, I don't hit the runner.
I suppose it could be considered a bit more of a risk than the park flyer
I use that some are convinced "needs coverage"

If 58 bucks gets the job done,then so be it ,it will never end as long
as we are caught up in our underware.

Roby

Roby

First, my reply was to BasinBum with reference to realizing that the AMA is an insurance company, and I stated you were APPARENTLY under the same misconception. I deduced that from your repeated statements that the AMA had a DUTY to send out a copy of the master policy. You seem to have backed down from that position.

Now, as far as access to the policy, I agree. I have asked several people at the AMA, in the past, to have Carl do two things. One is to publish the policy in the member's only section on the AMA web site and the other is to have him write and publish a FAQ with all the questions that come up again and again on fourms such as this, about the coverage. It seems that doing so would allivate concerns for folks such as you and I. On the other hand, I can see the need to charge $5 for a copy of the policy if it is mailed out. That probably does not cover the time and materials to make the copies. If there is actual resistence to these ideas, I have not found it amoung the people I contacted. It just does not get done.

jrjohn, I also see that you are sliding toward making this personal and attacking. It might be wiser to do the research and find out what a manusctipt policy is and explain it to everyone. You might learn something. You certainly seem to be backwatering on your claims. I still have not seen any quotes from you on comprable coverage. You still have not explained what you would do with claims that exceed your personal coverage. It's easy enough to say "this is the way to do it" and it is quite another to be able to back it up.

Oh... has it occured to you that "premisis coverage" might be a local term to your area? That was the reason that I asked exactly what you meant in using it.

JR

J_R
Who threw the first stone. (Not personal, but it takes two to have an argument)

I have read many post on RCU, and it seems like a few people think that their opinion and/or information is the best and only.

We want proof ... not speculation.
There seems to be little proof, but many auguments built on what we want things to be not what they are. Seems to be an american thing right now ... I call it MBA jargon. No real evidence, just speculation and quaint sayings.

Input ... more input ( Johny Five in Short Circuit )

Dennis (MustangFan)

If you really want to know how the money is spent, go to the Member's Only section on the AMA site and look at the Financal Statement. It is there. It also get published, piecemeal, in Model Aviation Magazine.

Be careful in making claims in this forum. Anything that is ambigious will draw attention. Your claim that your club pays the AMA $13000 a year is a good example. If what you meant to say was the members OF YOUR CLUB pay that amount in individual dues, it is not the same thing. Your club sends the AMA less than $200 per year. The casual reader in this forum takes everything at face value.

The AMA is talking. If you really have a question about insurance, call Carl Maroney and talk to him at AMA HQ.

Now my turn.. a question for you. What do you mean when you say "But if people have been trying since the 1970's to change the AMA unsuccessfully, what can we really expect." I see that again and again, and no one ever explains what it is that they want to see changed or what they percieve did not change. What people? What changes? What attempts were made and how?

JR

I agree, interesting thread. Since we have, from my point of view anyway, two insurance experts, I have a question:

Our club officers recently decided to get something which I (not an insurance expert) will call "club officer insurance". In light of their homeowner coverage + the second form of AMA coverage that J_R describes, does this seem necessary? Or is everybody a little paranoid these days? I think it was something like $700 per year for all the officers, I don't know the policy limit.

(I'm not judging them, I'm sure they had good reasons, I'm just curious about other opinions.)

Roby

I know this will draw another shot or two at CA, and maybe rightfully so, but.. what happens in CA has a way of working it's way around the country.

I had to jion an archery club to use my bow. My crossbow has to be registered with the sate as an assault weapon. In my community, there is an ordinance prohibiting ANY RC device in a park, the school district has done the same. Go-karts are illegal almost everywhere except on tracks or private property. You can't even take them out in the desert and run them (environmental damage to the snake trails, I guess). Carrying a bat to the park is illegal. It to is an assualt weapon, as are the weights women hold in their hands when they go for a walk. Once there, I guess they still let you play baseball with the bat. Model Rockets are prohibited almost everywhere (fire danger and liability). We do still get to play darts or fly a kite. Isn't that wonderful? So... it's not just model planes here, it's almost everything that you have to pay to do, in some way.

See what you have to look forward too?

JR

Mike in DC

First, let me clear something up. I an not an insurance expert. I know something about some very limited areas. The only "experts" on the AMA policy are the agent that sold it to the AMA, the insurance company itself, and Carl Maroney. I hate to admit that even Carl does not know everything there is to know about the policy.

Part of the answer to your question is a question. Is your club incorporated? If not, it is probably prudent to have the policy. If it is incorporated, the AMA has dropped some coverage for clubs, i.e. slander and libel, as well as not abiding by club by-laws (particularly in the area of expelling members without due process). Depending on the nature of your club, such insurance still might be wise. Only your club can make that decision.

The fact that half of the claims are non-model related "trip and fall" claims makes a lot of people edgy, me included.

JR

Mr J_R

See the 4th post in this forum from HossFly ....
"As District VI VP ....."
He tried to make changes in the 70's without success.

See JrJohn's post ....
He stated " Our Club of 50 members send nearly $3000 to the AMA"

Our club of 225+ members send over $13,000 to the AMA.
Thats all I wanted to say to put things in the same proportion as jrjohn did (valid points I must say). Semantics, Semantics .... people can read into anything what they want sometimes.

As for Carl Maroney ... I personally don't need any info. I just pay my dues and take my chances. $58 is just the cost of doing business. Factored into the actual cost of my adventure, it is just the cost of a mediocre servo.

What I don't have illusions about, is the AMA being anything they aren't ... no matter what their justification is. It's just legal/political jargon to the people that are out to enjoy this adventure. Most of what the AMA does seems to be an illusion to them!

Just looking on the various forums you can see this attitude from many including those presently running for office. They say "things must change" ... what things ... ask them, it's their platform. One big one is lack of communication, another is getting the organization back to the people.

These two things alone don't say much for the organization.

I'll try and take your advice and watch how I say things.
But if I am not clear, "you have to ask me nicely" (Jack Nickleson - A few Good Men), then I will explain nicely.

State opinions but don't attack each other ... I wish humanly this was possible.

Oh ... to answer the question "Why Should I Join"
Asking the members at our club, the answer is always "For the Insurance" ... for whatever it is worth.

To JR
Thanks for the responce.
Like I mentioned before, I pay the 58 bucks and be done with it if that's
all it takes. Then I can focus on the good stuff and not dwell on the crap.

Roby

Mike-
I'm certainly no authoritative source on such things, but I would deem such coverage necessary for myself, and I suggest you might pose that question to Carl Maroney. AMA officers, and I expect some employees, are covered by just such a policy (which we hoi polloi pick up the tab for of course). It is beyond the scope of coverage we get from AMA in either individual membership or club charter, but Maroney is surely aware of it and likely is covered by it himself. I guess I fall in the 'little paranoid these days' category. I detest lawyers and certainly don't want to hand them any opportunity to go poking their greedy hands around under my mattress. I won't take on club officer duties any more because I don't have the liability risk covered by such a policy. I'm uncomfortable with being a club instructor for the same reason, though I have not dropped that role yet. I can't imagine why anyone would expose himself to the liability risk that a CD has hanging over his head.
Good question, and if you do find some answers, please post.

Abel

. and you have to pay a fortune to play golf, even in a public course, pay to race cars of all descriptions, pay to fly full size aircraft of all descriptions, pay to moor a boat in a public marina, to go to the theatre, movies, concerts, football, baseball, cricket, rugby, all over the world.

I can't see why a mere $1 dollar per week is so frequently an issue to RC people.

I get a strange pleasure in knowing I belong to an organisation like the AMA (I also used to belong to the SMAE, the UK equivalent, when I was in the UK), knowing I am actually contributing something small to the welfare of the hobby, and don't mind, in the slightest, leaving the actual spending of that money to somebody who has more interest than me, in being willing to spend time getting directly involved in the system.

-David C.

Here is something Red did some time ago. Notice the dues is now $58. I have always thought it was about the best piece I have seen on this topic:

-----Original Message-----
From: Red Scholefield [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: Whats the issues with AMA?? Very Long post!!!


On Sat, 14 Apr 2001 [email protected] wrote:

> But, the reason I ask is this. Everything I have ever done I
have
> supported the National Association. I shoot so I am in the NRA. I
trap
> so I am in Fur Takers and the National Trappers Assoc.. and the list
> goes on and on. Supporting your hobby and/or sport is just
something I
> believe in doing.

You have probably stated the very best gut reason for joining the AMA. You want to support the organization that represents your hobby or sport.

Like the NRA, the AMA promotes the hobby it represents, sets rules and safety guidelines, charters clubs, sanctions competition, and is the official national body for the hobby.

Like the NRA, there are some warts. There are things that could probably be done better, there are some things that should be and are not being done yet, but like the NRA there are limited resources in getting some of these things implemented and there is a broad divergence in the membership as to which is most important and an even larger portion of the membership could care less. Or at least they don't care enough to even vote when there is an opportunity to change the make up of the AMA Executive Council.

* * BENEFITS OF THE ACADEMY OF MODEL AERONAUTICS * *

PROGRAMS
1. Sanctioned Competitions with over 2,500 annually
2. Assistance in getting and keeping flying sites
3. National Safety Advisory Program and Safety Codes Standard
4. Annual Youth Scholarship Program
5. Youth Education Programs
6. Club chartering Program provides club and site assistance to
almost 2,400 clubs
7. Dues structured by age groups ? younger and older modelers pay
less
8. Opportunity to serve in leadership roles of Contest Director or
Leader Member
9. World Championships Teams selected and financing
10. Support and promotion for the sport of aeromodeling for schools,
service groups and clubs
11. Air Show Team Program offers demonstrations of model aircraft to
millions of people
12. Club Officer Recognition
13. Members elect corporate officers ? annual elections
14. Mall Show Program for clubs
15. Historic Preservation and Research (Museum, Archives, and Library)
16. Introductory Pilot Program
17. Attend major modeling trade shows for member assistance and
provide public awareness
18. Conduct volunteer program for member's participation of the
International Aeromodeling Center activities
19. Opportunity to be an elected corporate board member and vote in
behalf of the district
20. Leader club recognition
21. Hobby shop display for AMA information center
22. Hall of Fame recognition
23. Experimental Aircraft Inspectors for models over 55 lbs.
24. Turbine Waivers for jet pilots


SERVICE

1. Liability Coverage for Operations of Model Aircraft, Boats, Cars
and Rockets
2. $2,500,000 Comprehensive General Liability Protection for model
activities for members, clubs, site owners and sponsors
3. $25,000 Accident/Medical Coverage for members
4. $10,000 Maximum Accidental Death Coverage for members
5. $1,000 Fire, Theft, and Vandalism Coverage for members
6. Primary Site Owner Insurance ? $5,000,000 each location
7. Published???Financial Information, Contest Calendar, Construction
Articles and News
8. Non Profit status to retain income as a Tax Exempt organization
under IRS Section 501(c)(3)
9. Accumulated assets ($11 million)
10. Safeguarding radio frequencies through liaison with Federal
Communications Commission
11. Achievements recognized through the Awards Program
12. World Record performances processed through F.A.I.
13. Contest scheduling coordination to avoid conflicts
14. National Records recognized and recorded
15. Liaison maintained with major Government agencies (Corp. of
Engineers, Navy, Air Force, Army, Marines)
16. Film Library with rentals available to members, clubs and general
public
17. National Museum ? Frank V. Ehling National Model Museum ? free
admission to all members
18. Museum Store for visitors
19. Museum Patron Program
20. Support and sponsorship of technical meetings
21. American representation to the Federation Aeronautique
Internationale (FAI), Paris, France
22. Over forty full time staff members, dedicated to serving all
aspects of aeromodeling interests
23. The National Center for Aeromodeling, the world's only full?time
model aviation facility
24. Lee Renaud Memorial Library ? more than 25,000 publications and
books with research service available
25. Specialty member programs offered only through AMA membership ?
Optional insurance, Credit Cards and Eye Care Discounts
26. Serving aeromodeling since 1936???now over 60 continuous years
27. Fax?on?Demand for forms and information 1?800?500?3139
28. Affiliate of National Aeronautical Association
29. Web page on Internet ? Information dissemination
30. Internet E?mail ? to improve ease of communications
31. Federal land use with Department of Interior
32. District meetings for in person contact
33. Free 800 number for member service
34. Administrative staff to assist with explanation of various
programs
35. Coordination with Federal Aviation Administration to promote safe
regulations for flying models.

EVENTS

1. National Championships, world's largest model airplane meets
2. World Championships and other special activities hosted
3. Development of new outdoor promotional modeling events


PRODUCTS

1. Model Aviation Magazine ? The Voice of Aeromodeling News
2. Standardized competition rules ? the Rule Book
3. Field Safety and Frequency Posters
4. Modeling publications available at discount through Supply &
Service Department
5. National Newsletters for clubs
6. Delta Dart Kit for introduction to aeromodeling
7. Hobby Shop lists for promotions
8. Club Labels for promotions
9. Club Newsletter Labels for promotions
10. Museum newsletter Cloud 9 for patrons
11. Competition license for sanctioned events
12. Advertising about the Association Services in other modeling
publications



The negative points on the AMA are that too few modelers ever get involved in the organization, just joining so that they can fly at AMA chartered clubs. The AMA has to operate then, on very little input from the membership and only hears the *****ing when they do something a member finds does not fit his or her personal agenda. While there are exceptions, these same individuals usually don't usually get involved in running their local clubs or contributing anything of a positive nature at the local level either. While you will hear that the AMA does not communicate with the membership you will find that they do this quite well in their monthly magazine Model Aviation.

Unfortunately a vocal few of the members just don't take the time to read it and would rather ***** instead. As with all generalizations there are exceptions to this. This is not to say that the AMA and its officers are without some warts. In the past they could have done a better job in some areas, but these are unpaid volunteers and it is impossible to make everyone happy. The overall operation of the AMA has been steadily improving at a faster rate than one would expect considering the apathy on the part of the membership to provide any constructive comments as to how things could be improved.

Most clubs in the country are AMA chartered clubs (this is the choice of the membership at the local level) and as such require AMA membership to fly at their facilities. Non AMA clubs are quite limited in number.

Bottom line, if all you want or need is the insurance, never plan on flying at any other club site or function, don't want a magazine that covers general aeromodeling, flip a coin. For $38 you can get insurance from the UMA (http://www.unitedmodelers.com/) or for $48 you get all the AMA has to offer.

I would encourage you to consider the later and become an active part of the modeling organization with a half-century of service to modeling.

Red Scholefield - AMA 951 IMAA 18939
District V Leader Member/CD

All true, although I would personally object to the AMA being compared with the NRA.

Planes are for pleasure, guns are for killing people.

I hope people enjoy flying much more than killing people.

They don't compare.

-David C.

Basin Bum, I'm not totally sure I understand your question. Your asking if there has ever been a claim to an insurance company when the AMA was not involved? Then you ask if it won't be hard to educate "them" meaning the insurance company of and RC flier)about RC law?. First of all, the answer is yes, a buddy of mine had a midair collision then hit a power wire about 4 years ago at a flyinn. The wire fell across the highway and stopped traffic. He told the CD at the field and was treated like he had the SARS virus. He was told to contact his own insurance company. He did (State Farm) They handled the claim, no questions asked, there was NO AMA involvment to his
knowledge.

Second, I'm not sure there is "RC Law" per say. If you hurt somebody, with a golf club, golf cart, tennis raquet, bike, RC plane, hockey stick, gun, bow and arrow, riding lawn mower, weed wacker, chainsaw, or what ever is your choice, the law reads the same, Depending on your degree of negligence you may be held responsible for injuries, loss of income, pain and suffering ect... There is no trick to handeling a Liability claim Insurance companies do it everyday. If need be they hire lawyers or seek professional adivce from experts. I'm not sure what you mean about an uphill battle.

It might be better if you ask, "how many claims are settled by modelers personal liability without the involvment of the AMA". I'm guessing the AMA doens't even see most claims. Why would they if the AMA coverage was secondary?

Why would you fight your carier for coverage you already have? Trust me on the following. NO INSURANCE COMPANY WILL WANT TO DENY A CLAIM FOR SOMETHING THEIR POLICY COVERS. This is called "bad faith" on the Insurance companies part, and they will be punished beyond belief for trying.

I have a better question and comment. why would anybody insure their entire house and personal belongings with a company that they feel won't pay them if there is a loss? If you don't trust them to pay a liability claim done with a model airplane, get rid of them and find somebody you do trust! What if your house burns down, can you trust them then? You think a fire claim is easy to handle? They are a nightmare.

Believe me, the liability for personal injury or property damage done by a modeler is the least of the insurance companies worries. Insurance companies handle all kinds of weird liability claims on a daily basis, My policy spacifically includes coverage for model airplane liability. Check your policy, or better yet call your agent. Hint..... look in the exclusions part of your liability, it may say "aircraft are excluded, except for models". (they don't want any liability for full scale aircraft carrying passengers!)

let me know what you find

John

Very true in that AMA and NRA do NOT compare.

Modeling is for pleasure and AMA is an IRS 501 (c) (3) charitable educational organization which is prohibited from political lobby. AMA can *educate* but officially nothing more.
NRA is an organization, not charitable in mission, and is there to lobby for the rights of all citizens, under the Constitution of the United States, that right to bear arms, the one thing that oppressive government is most afraid of.
While NRA has a charitable foundation for educational purposes, AMA has yet to establish any group to exercise any political input reference our *pleasure*.

The NRA has a mission and goes forward with that mission even though it too has a lot of inside politics in how to accomplish that mission.
In my opinion, AMA also has a mission, however such mission is frequently ignored in the pursuit of playing 'Insurance Broke'.

Horrace Cain
AMA 539
Life member, NRA.
Charter Founder, Second Amendment Task Force.

David

I posted Red's thoughts in their entirety. I am not in the habit of editing other peoples remarks. It was not to make a point about the NRA. As you can see, emotions run high and the second amendment issue can easily take this thread down an unintended track.

May I suggest that all those that want to continue the debate about guns and the second amendment go to the newsgroup rec.guns and have it out.

As you acknowledged, it is a good piece on the AMA. Can we let it stand on those merits?

JR

JR,

I absolutely agree.

-DC

And like the AMA, the NRA has liability policies to cover member club's playground. They also have a national "playground", far removed from the "majority' of membership, they sponsor and promote competitions, issue members a choice of magazines and a large number of other things..not the least of which they are at least 20 times larger than the AMA-and are not an insurance company, either.
The big difference in the isurance is that the NRA only requires 50% of the club's members to be NRA for the insurance to cover the club/landowner.