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Another Drone Pilot does it Again

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Another Drone Pilot does it Again

Old 04-11-2015, 06:39 AM
  #976  
JohnShe
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Originally Posted by NorfolkSouthern View Post
Here's my understanding:
Originally Posted by NorfolkSouthern View Post
You can go directly into AMA competition and make money off the winnings.
I am am unaware of any competition that awards cash. But, an award is not payment for effort or skill, it is a one time only prize. There is no mention of this issue in the FAA Interpretation of section 336.


Originally Posted by NorfolkSouthern View Post
You can test fly new designs of model planes, and get paid for it.
This is a problem, the current unofficial version of the interpretation seems to place this activity as an unallowed commercial activity even though it is being performed in support of recreational model aviation. I hope that the FAA has read my comment on this issue and recognized their error.


Originally Posted by NorfolkSouthern View Post
You can get paid for teaching someone to fly a model airplane.
I can't imagine anyone dumb enough to pay for flight lessons when, for the small price of membership, he can receive all he help he needs for free, as often as he needs it. I think that this should require a license though.


Originally Posted by NorfolkSouthern View Post
All you need to do, is GET A LICENSE. What's wrong with that?
Old 04-11-2015, 07:26 AM
  #977  
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I am am unaware of any competition that awards cash. But, an award is not payment for effort or skill, it is a one time only prize. There is no mention of this issue in the FAA Interpretation of section 336.
From the interpretation.

5 Likewise, flights that are in furtherance of abusiness, or incidental to a person’s business, would not be a hobby or recreation flight.
So flight testing is furtherance of a business and incidental to the business. Getting an award for winning a contest, especially if done professionally would make it illegal, as wll as getting money and products from sponsors!
Old 04-11-2015, 07:45 AM
  #978  
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Originally Posted by HoundDog View Post
This is dispite some people belief that it soesn't pertain to our TOY airplanes when it most deffinatly will if inacted as written.

Every AMA member should of gotten this Notic from the AMA Read it Watch it And Comment on the NPRM before April 24th. It's Vital to our hoby with what the FAA wants and will do if we don't make objection to it ... For those that belive the NPRM as written and feature FAR's it will make DO NOT only pertain to Comerical Use of sUAS and TOY MODEL AIR PLANES. It (if inacted as written into FAR's it will out lay any thing over 55 lbs any thing over 87 MPH Max altitude 500' ext.


Please read and watch the video and then comment to the FAA before ther take yout TOY airplanes away or make tham Useless and worthless, if they can. Government will take anything U don't veitmently protect.

U should of recieved this today but check It out Here.

http://view.exacttarget.com/?j=fe561...0575741372&r=0

[TABLE="class: link-enhancr-element, width: 450"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E5E5E5, colspan: 8"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E5E5E5"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #E5E5E5"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 1, bgcolor: #E5E5E5"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Take Action to Help Preserve Model Aviation's Future. Comment on the FAA NPRM.

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]View on view.exacttarget.com[/TD]
[TD]
Preview by Yahoo
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E5E5E5, colspan: 8"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Can't wait for April 25th so doodydoggy will need to find a different subject to beat to death.

And yes I replied and not just by using the template.
Old 04-11-2015, 07:50 AM
  #979  
JohnShe
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot View Post
From the interpretation.



So flight testing is furtherance of a business and incidental to the business. Getting an award for winning a contest, especially if done professionally would make it illegal, as wll as getting money and products from sponsors!
You are quite correct, there is a difference between amateur and professional competition. Tell me, how do you become a professional model airplane competitor? Is it like professional golf? Do they have a cable channel for it?
Old 04-11-2015, 08:16 AM
  #980  
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Originally Posted by JohnShe View Post
You are quite correct, there is a difference between amateur and professional competition. Tell me, how do you become a professional model airplane competitor? Is it like professional golf? Do they have a cable channel for it?
For years there has been the rumor that certain pilots were paid appearance money from manufactures to appear at the big competitions.
Old 04-11-2015, 08:28 AM
  #981  
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Originally Posted by bradpaul View Post
For years there has been the rumor that certain pilots were paid appearance money from manufactures to appear at the big competitions.
We these Pilots actually paid a dollar amount or were they just sponsered by companies to advertise their planes or equipment?
Old 04-11-2015, 08:56 AM
  #982  
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Originally Posted by bradpaul View Post
For years there has been the rumor that certain pilots were paid appearance money from manufactures to appear at the big competitions.
Rumors? Is there evidence to support these claims? I don't have much respect for rumors.
Old 04-11-2015, 09:01 AM
  #983  
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Originally Posted by FLAPHappy View Post
We these Pilots actually paid a dollar amount or were they just sponsered by companies to advertise their planes or equipment?
Interesting question. How would we know that some pilots were actually advertising for a certain supplier? Do they wear company t-shirts and hats? Do they have company stickers on their planes? Do they always win the contests? Do they autograph the products that are sold at the company's booth? Do their cars or trailers have company logos on them?

If this is being done with the intent of supporting recreational model aviation, it is arguably within the intent of Section 336. Albeit a little sleazy.
Old 04-11-2015, 09:15 AM
  #984  
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Originally Posted by JohnShe View Post
Rumors? Is there evidence to support these claims? I don't have much respect for rumors.
I bet you believed that Lance Armstrong did not dope right up to his confession.
Old 04-11-2015, 09:17 AM
  #985  
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Originally Posted by bradpaul View Post
I bet you believed that Lance Armstrong did not dope right up to his confession.
Didn't know, didn't care.
Old 04-11-2015, 10:25 AM
  #986  
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The FAA is way wrong on this one, They need to be concerned about safety not if a dime changed hands between modelers. I agree with Sport people just will do what they always
have or cease competition and advertising / promotional services.
Old 04-11-2015, 10:38 AM
  #987  
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Since the FAA's interpretation of Section 336 seems to be a topic of discussion, I think this is worth looking at:

Important update (March 9, 2015): In Perez v. Mortgage Bankers Association (March 9 2015), the Supreme Court held that agency interpretations of statutes and regulations are not legislative rules, and accordingly do not require agencies to follow the APA's notice and comment procedures. The Court further held that as non-legislative rules, agency interpretations do not have the force and effect of law, and only indicate to the public what an agency perceives the law to be.Courts must still give deference to agency interpretations, and those interpretations will stand unless a court finds them to be arbitrary and capricious. Exactly what effect, if any, the Perez decision has upon the June Interpretation is unknown. Since the FAA remains free to interpret aviation statutes and regulations as it sees fit, and since courts must defer to those interpretations unless they are determined to be arbitrary and capricious, the decision appears to have little practical effect on curbing the FAA's use of interpretations to modify existing law.
Close attention should be paid to Justices Scalia's and Thomas' concurrences. Both express strong concern for agencies being able to draft broad and ambiguous regulations intentionally, knowing they may "fill-in-the blanks" at a later date simply by interpretation, thereby changing the meaning of regulations with relative impunity due to the deference requirement.

http://dronelawjournal.com/?hc_location=ufi


Bottom line is that the FAA's "interpretation" is nothing more than what they think the law means and in and of itself is not a law or regulation. The courts have also held that when looking at laws that the idea of "plain language" needs to be used. In other words, don't go looking for hidden meanings, what it says is what it means.
Old 04-11-2015, 02:13 PM
  #988  
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http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutam...esponse.aspx#3
Silent, please read this, I am not sure what it means exactly and the AMA avoids it??

I think the FAA will outrule the AMA on this subject, could be wrong?

Last edited by FLAPHappy; 04-11-2015 at 02:17 PM. Reason: optional
Old 04-11-2015, 02:22 PM
  #989  
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Originally Posted by Silent-AV8R View Post
Since the FAA's interpretation of Section 336 seems to be a topic of discussion, I think this is worth looking at:



Bottom line is that the FAA's "interpretation" is nothing more than what they think the law means and in and of itself is not a law or regulation. The courts have also held that when looking at laws that the idea of "plain language" needs to be used. In other words, don't go looking for hidden meanings, what it says is what it means.
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]
AMA's lawyer made a different point in " Since the FAA remains free to interpret aviation statutes and regulations as it sees fit, and since courts must defer to those interpretations unless they are determined to be arbitrary and capricious, the decision appears to have little practical effect on curbing the FAA's use of interpretations to modify existing law."
I understand that to say FAA's interpretation is the law de facto, until challenged in court and a decision is reached that the interpretations are arbitrary and capricious. IOW an umpteenth reiteration of the Chevron decision, and perhaps advice to his AMA client to "live with it" as any challange will most probably prove fruitless.
Old 04-11-2015, 09:16 PM
  #990  
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Sadly, it seems to be true that one of these case will likely need to end up in court to be settled. On the other hand, I will be surprised if the FAA pursues anything less than a absolute case of endangering a manned aircraft.

BTW - I believe that Brendan Schulman is the AMA's attorney. Peter Sachs is representing another group in a similar suit against the FAA.

http://www.kramerlevin.com/files/upl...A_Petition.pdf

Peter Sachs is a plaintiff with Brendan as attorney of record:

http://www.kramerlevin.com/files/upl...caPetition.pdf
Old 04-11-2015, 09:31 PM
  #991  
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Originally Posted by FLAPHappy View Post
We these Pilots actually paid a dollar amount or were they just sponsered by companies to advertise their planes or equipment?
It is not a rumor it is a fact, and not illegal AFAIK. Probably the largest sponsor right now is "Team Futaba" Here is a link of many photo's of competitors they sponsored.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...taba&FORM=IGRE
Old 04-11-2015, 09:33 PM
  #992  
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I think the FAA will outrule the AMA on this subject, could be wrong?
I would hope that the FAA changes its mind, after all it will be a large expense to enforce. Or at least that the courts overrule the FAA.
Old 04-11-2015, 09:37 PM
  #993  
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Originally Posted by cj_rumley View Post
AMA's lawyer made a different point in " Since the FAA remains free to interpret aviation statutes and regulations as it sees fit, and since courts must defer to those interpretations unless they are determined to be arbitrary and capricious, the decision appears to have little practical effect on curbing the FAA's use of interpretations to modify existing law."
I understand that to say FAA's interpretation is the law de facto, until challenged in court and a decision is reached that the interpretations are arbitrary and capricious. IOW an umpteenth reiteration of the Chevron decision, and perhaps advice to his AMA client to "live with it" as any challange will most probably prove fruitless.
..

This is true for regulations, but not so much as to law. However, I believe a case could be made that this is arbitrary and capricious.
Old 04-12-2015, 05:39 AM
  #994  
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Originally Posted by bradpaul View Post
Can't wait for April 25th so doodydoggy will need to find a different subject to beat to death.

And yes I replied and not just by using the template.
Thanks BP But there are many that have not it's just a reminder thanks for UR effort on behalf of our Hobby/Sport of flying TOY airplanes.
Old 04-12-2015, 05:50 AM
  #995  
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Originally Posted by JohnShe View Post
I am am unaware of any competition that awards cash. But, an award is not payment for effort or skill, it is a one time only prize. There is no mention of this issue in the FAA Interpretation of section 336.




This is a problem, the current unofficial version of the interpretation seems to place this activity as an unallowed commercial activity even though it is being performed in support of recreational model aviation. I hope that the FAA has read my comment on this issue and recognized their error.




I can't imagine anyone dumb enough to pay for flight lessons when, for the small price of membership, he can receive all he help he needs for free, as often as he needs it. I think that this should require a license though.

There's a flight school in Shanwo Wisconsin and I thought it was stupid but after seing the results it does make a differance. Especially over most club teaching and deffinatly self taught ... Look at UR own club (IF u actually fly at a Chartered club) and there in every club smoe people that are down right DANGERIOUS but for some reason the club put's up with them and their antics cause they are part of the IN CROWD.
Old 04-12-2015, 05:56 AM
  #996  
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[QUOTE=JohnShe;12020562]I am am unaware of any competition that awards cash. But, an award is not payment for effort or skill, it is a one time only prize. There is no mention of this issue in the FAA Interpretation of section 336.

Our club in Mesa awards Money form the entry fee for 1st 2nd & 3rd place in our monthly Pylon Races as do other clubs in the PHX Valley.
Old 04-12-2015, 06:47 AM
  #997  
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Originally Posted by FLAPHappy View Post
http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutam...esponse.aspx#3
Silent, please read this, I am not sure what it means exactly and the AMA avoids it??

I think the FAA will outrule the AMA on this subject, could be wrong?
AMA has field a lawsuit against the FAA over their interpretation. I suspect that in the end the FAA will soften some of their interpretation to make it clear that contest winnings, sponsorship, etc. do not make an otherwise hobby flight commercial in nature.
Old 04-12-2015, 06:52 AM
  #998  
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Originally Posted by JohnShe View Post
I am am unaware of any competition that awards cash.
Apparently you have never heard of the Tournament of Champions (TOC), Tucson Aerobatic Shootout, or the Top Gun Scale contest, to name just a few.
Old 04-12-2015, 07:17 AM
  #999  
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Originally Posted by Silent-AV8R View Post
Apparently you have never heard of the Tournament of Champions (TOC), Tucson Aerobatic Shootout, or the Top Gun Scale contest, to name just a few.
Good points. Maybe just me, but I can never understand the mentality that would want to short circuit any enterprise based on whether or not it was a money making venture... I can understand certain standards to insure consumer or even spectator safety but to prevent income based purely on license is against everything I understand America to be.
Old 04-12-2015, 07:57 AM
  #1000  
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IMO i think AMA may have Constitutional grounds for this. The FAA was given the skies to rule because of interstate commerce from the commerce clause in the Constitution. Full scale aircraft and even large UAV's are capable of interstate commerce, model airplane contests and manufacture flight testing is clearly not interstate commerce. That is they do not cross state lines to accomplish their commerce.

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