franklin_m

49 USC §44809(a)(5) and 49 USC §44809(a)(6)
The link to Federal LAW is appended for your convenience.

Has AMA indemnified the participants against any FAA fines for willful operation in violation of 49 USC §44809(a)(5) and/or 49 USC §44809(a)(6)? I sincerely doubt it.

49 USC §44809(a)(7). As noted above, the link to Federal LAW is appended for your convenience.

As above, I'd be curious to see if FAI is indemnifying the participants willful violation of 49 USC §44809(a)(5) and/or 49 USC §44809(a)(6)? I sincerely doubt it.


And keep in mind, as AMA is sanctioning these activities, and many more around the country every weekend, all it will take is one ugly event to hand FAA all the justification they need to deny AMA's recognition as a CBO ... for willfully allowing and in some cases encouraging operations in direct violation of law.


Note 1: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...8-sec44809.htm

franklin_m

All it takes is a few well placed letters to city/township/airport attorneys noting the limits of 49 USC §44809(a), reminding them they do not have authority to waive that. Then point out that now that they're aware of the limits of the law - if they allow the events to go as scheduled, they may well be assuming liability on behalf of their constituents.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

What about the fact that all these events are happening with the blessing of the the FAA do you not understand?

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

You mean like the local state/city have no authority to leagalize recreational pot?

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

LOL. You mean YOUR little corner of the hobby?
If it were important to me I would know about it. Not all of us live in (or care) about your little world.
Again, the more important question is how many of us care? Maybe not all hobbyists do. Maybe some of us just want to know we can continue to fly as we always have. I wonder if the FAI had the foresight to get an FAA waiver before they approved Muncie as the host?

You just continue to show how ignorant you are about what is really happening. Maybe you should step back and take a look at the WHOLE forest....

Astro

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

Define blessing.
Do the organizers have waivers from the FAA, or is the FAA just not aware or turning a blind eye?
If they don't have a waiver, It is a far stretch to say they have the FAA's blessing, but that is how you usually like to spin/justify your opinions.

Astro

franklin_m

First, absent a letter from FAA exempting them from 49 USC §44809(a), the FAA hasn't "blessed" anything. And if such a letter existed, I'm pretty confident AMA would be shouting it from the rooftops as evidence of their "influence." But since they're not, I'm assuming no such exemption exits. Therefore no "blessing."

The absence of FAA enforcement at the event is not a "blessing" either. There's any number of instances where FAA waits until there's an event before they pull out the hammer. They wait until there's a mishap, THEN go digging. And if one such thing was to happen, they'd find any number of events that AMA sanctioned in violation of law. And you know what they call that when they find it? A pattern of conduct. And that my friend becomes reason to deny CBO recognition or, if given already, revoke it.

If indeed one believes that FAA has it in for the AMA, the very worst thing the AMA can do is continue sanctioning events that they know or should know are in violation of 49 USC §44809(a).

franklin_m

You should really study your legal systems. Just because something is legal under state law, does not mean it's legal under federal law. The feds retain authority to charge in Federal court such violations.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Astro you crack me up. I like the adolescent reply of " I don't care ". For one if you really didn't care you wouldn't bother replying. You and a few others preach about how ineffective AMA is in dealing with the FAA and then when I show an example of where they are being effective at planning world stage events at Muncie you cry " I don't care ". You gonna take you ball and go home next? LOL.

Lets talk about ignorance. The FAA is clearly handing out exemptions under your nose while you're claiming the sky is falling. Who's ignorant? I know that there are agreements at every place I fly that means no action can come from me flying over 400', were you aware of that?

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

What spin. Fact: F3A team trials are happening at Muncie RIGHT NOW! Fact: Muncie applied to the FAI to host the 2021 F3A WC and was approved. To get that approval they had to demonstrate the legal ability to host an the event. Plain and simple, if FAA did not approve a waiver for the event and NSRCA not have that waiver in the proposal the FAI would have never have approved Muncie as the venue. Argue and insult all you want, those are the FACTS!

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

Not adolescent at all (not to mention the pot calling the kettle black, but we don't need to go there again now, do we? ), just qualifying that I don't pay attention to things I could care less about. Pretty simple, really.
Wait, you said the FAI was planning to have their event at Muncie. That is not the AMA....
Juvenile?....Again, pot calling the kettle black. LOL

I don't know. Myself and others here have been asking to see proof of, and how many exemptions have been granted. So far, we've been told, "dozens"......As far as your, "sky is falling" remark, read Franklin's post, then read what the LAW says........Again, just because someone robs a bank and gets away with it, doesn't make it any more legal.
Well now, that is not what you've said in the past, is it? I have asked you directly that exact question multiple times and you have not answered it. Passive-aggressive much? And you wonder why we can't have civil discussions here! LOL

Astro

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

Please show me where I insulted.
I can't help it if you are too thin-skinned and emotional to have a discussion.




Astro

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Ok, try to follow along this time. FAI is the governing body that oversees international level model competitions ( some full scale too ). They need to approve any venues submitted for a WC in much the same way the NFL needs to approve the venue for the Super Bowl. NSRCA is the US SIG for F3A, AMA has sanctioned the team trials and has been involved in the proposal to host the 2021 F3A WC. All 3 organizations plus the FAA had to work together to make having the WC take place in Muncie.

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

Yes, I understand your thought process and all of the assumptions it took to get to your, "logical" conclusion. That "logic" is not necessarily FACTUAL. What you never came out and actually stated was that, YES, the FAA granted a waiver for this event.

Astro

ECHO24

BIGGER PICTURES, BIGGER PLANES, BIGGER FONTS - THAT WILL WIN THE ARGUMENT! (or at the very least make people lose interest in what it was about).

ECHO24

Seriously, this is getting as tedious as RCGroups.

Hydro Junkie

Since you've never been in that situation, I doubt you would know how dangerous it actually was. Had the Hawkeye started to unfold its wings, I could have been crushed under it since it not only pivots forward but down when unfolding. I was fortunate in several ways that day.
For starters, I pay attention to what is said here in the forum, and by who. I also read the sources posted by those that post here in the forum. It's actually very easy to see the ebb and flow of what's actually happening through simple observation by what's being said and by who. The present conversation is a good example of this:
1) YOU say that Muncie(actually the AMA) is hosting a contest to pick the pilots representing the US in an international event WITH THE FAA'S BLESSING
2) OTHERS ask about an altitude waiver from the FAA, GET NO FACTUAL ANSWER, only that the FAA has given its blessing. I could give my blessing for the event and it means just as much as getting a blessing from the FAA. Unless the FAA grants an altitude waiver, they haven't blessed anything
3) OTHERS ask why nothing has been heard from the AMA itself? After all, hosting an international event should be considered as shouting from the rooftop type of news, especially when you consider how the AMA loves to brag about what it thinks it's accomplished. Yet the only word we have is yours that any of this is happening. You would have thought that, being a member of the EC, Andy would have said something by now, but no, not a word. Why is that?
NOW, how would you interpret 1-3 if you were in my place? Observation of the back and forth in this thread AND the AMA's past conduct says the AMA is staying on the downlow on this since they don't have a waiver to allow the competition and don't want to draw attention to themselves or what's going on. With all of that said, PROVE ME WRONG WITH SOMETHING FACTUAL AND SUPPORTED BY EVIDENCE
Just because we may not be flying almost every day doesn't mean we don't see or listen. Last time I was at a flying field, not one person was there. This was on a Saturday afternoon and a day with nice weather. The field was shut down a few weeks later. What does that tell you? It tells me that either the club or property owner pulled the plug. The fact that the club was looking for a new venue to fly at soon after says the owner shut everything down, but why? Can't personally say, just know that the members were being allowed to fly at another club almost an hour away for free until they could get a new site. Read that in the hosting club's newsletter that was freely available at a local hobby shop.

Hydro Junkie

Gee, this is interesting. 36 hours and no one had posted anything in this thread. Does that mean everyone was watching foot ball or what? BTW, HOW ABOUT THEM COWBOYS???
Zeke really earned his pay, being outrushed by all but one other player from either team on per carry yardage. Even Seattle's Chris Carson, who went down with a knee injury, had as many rushing attempts and almost double the yards. Gotta give credit to Dak, played a great game. Only one thing to say on that subject:
GO HAWKS!!!!!

R_Strowe

Hydro,
I think the answer to #2 above is simple; the FAI would require that altitude waiver from the FAA as a condition of allowing Muncie to host that event. No Waiver/No Event. Since the event is going on then there must be a ‘requisite waiver’ issued by the FAA.

Now if the actual, material waiver Is the only proof some will accept, oh well...

R_Strowe

Hydro Junkie

And I would agree with that EXCEPT the event going on now is a QUALIFYING EVENT. Since this is supposedly where the US team is selected, they may or may not have applied for a waiver since it's only US fliers and not the actual competition.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Don't waste your time. They just don't get it, not because they can't. It's that they don't want to. You and I know the amount of effort required to compete at that level. These guys have been working for a year plus to get to the team trials. Stepping onto site 1 at Muncie represents hundreds of hours in practice and equipment preparation let alone 20K in equipment and travel/lodging expenses. Nobody is going to make these investments on the hopes that the FAA won't shut it down the weekend of the trials.

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

No, you don't get it......
....You just insert your own narrative wherever it pleases you. Nowhere did anyone say the FAA was going to shut it down. It's pretty simple, based on the facts, that the FAA is not currently enforcing the law.

The really simple question was: "Was this event granted an altitude exemption by the FAA?"

So far, nobody has given a definitive answer.

Astro

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

Now, back to the light-hearted intent of the thread for init4fun's sake.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Simple answer, if the FAA hadn't then there would not have been an event in the first place! What keeps you from accepting that?

Sounds like, " my car is running, I must have gas in the tank, Astro: are you sure? Did you SEE the gas?"

Hydro Junkie

We don't need to see the gas if the engine is running. When it quits running, we know the tank is empty or below the fuel pump pick up, even if the guage doesn't work.
What we didn't see or hear from anyone, other than you, is about this competition. Since the AMA isn't "crowing" about the competition like they do everything else, it has us thinking that they don't want to anyone to know what's going on. If you go back to my response to your post on Saturday evening, you will see I asked simple questions then and asked you to refute my conclusions with answers supported by facts. You haven't done that, just tried to belittle those of us that don't fly competition for asking the questions. I guess I need to use the Freedom of Information Act to see if the FAA has actually granted a waiver, might actually get a legitimate answer that way