Observers unless they are there for a specific agenda item, such as JPO being there to discuss a turbine issue for example.

Observers are allowed under regular circumstances, are they allowed to observe the zoom meetings as well?

Astro

That was my next question I have attended zoom meetings and someone has to sign you in when you request joining. The possibility of having to sign in thousands .......or is there an open portal for observation only

These quarterly meetings are to attend to the daily buisness of running the orgaization re items that do not require member voting. Do you have an annual general meeting AGM where members can have thier motions put forth for consideration.

There's an annual membership meeting where we discuss open questions, it used to take place at Joe Nall, there's also one at the National Fly In and I've done district level one at Perry Swap Meet.

So, members can or cannot join the quarterly zoom meetings?

Not likely thousands would show up. I was on the board of an HOA and no one showed up for the open board meetings. If anyone did, on a few occasions, they would leave soon after the meeting began because it was too boring for them.

If AMA had open meetings I expect the only ones who might be there would be the four of you that only argue about the same thing over and over.

I guess we're doing pretty well then. Our HOA has 85 owners, and we typically get 30+ at our meetings. Why? Three reasons: We made it easy. Genuinely listen to their concerns (even when we don't like what we hear), and then take PROMPT action.

What a concept!

Kind of works like it is intended, no? Group elects folks to do their bidding, the elected, in turn, provide an open forum for their constituents to communicate their opinions so they know how to do their job and what is expected of them by the electorate, they take action and report back to their constituents. MIND BLOWN!!

I honestly do not understand and cannot comprehend how the seeming majority of citizens believe that we elect a President to be a dictator to rule however they see fit......

Astro

Or the majority feel that the management is doing a proper job and are satisfied with the results of the leadership.

That's OK too.

Yours is constructed a bit different than others I belong to. For instance at MAAC regular board meetings like your Quarterlies are for regular items that are day to day concerns, members don't vote your representative does after all that's what you voted him in for. Once a year there is a meeting where changes to the policy/constitution, bylaws etc. get put before the membership for approval. These are either recommendations or resolutions. At this meeting the voting is by the general membership either in person or via proxy with the board member carrying the number of votes in his district by default unless a person has designated otherwise or attends in person. No motions are accepted from the floor as the members need notice of the motions on the docket. These are published 30 days prior to the meeting so every member can make an informed decision. To be considered a motion must be submitted, voted on and approved at a single district/zone meeting then its passed on for consideration at the AGM.

Simple form: Motion submitted by member at large at district/zone meeting, needs seconder, voted on if passing goes to the AGM for vote by general membership.

How do you do this at the AMA?

I would disagree with that based on my experience that those who do not engage, do not really know what is going on, hence they know not what they are, "OK" with.

Go to You Tube and see how many people do not know who our President or VP of the USA are. I do not believe that the opinions of those who choose not to engage and bury their head in the sand, hold any real relevance or value to the greater good, or their own, for that matter. All of the freedoms we enjoy require each individual to be engaged and take some personal responsibility, not simply reap the benefits, else our system will ultimately fail. Have you watched the news lately?

Astro

Well I'm "OK" with that.

I guess I am asking if someone wants a motion to be considered at the national level how does one go about that?

For those of you the AMA holds its meetings according to Roberts Rules so here is the condensed version.
roberts_rules_simplified.pdf

What you describe is an organization that SAYS it wants input from membership and then ACTIONS MATCH the rhetoric.

What AMA does is SAY they want input, but then only allow them to make formal inputs once a year. The rest of the year the board does what it wants. And since they're slow (and getting slower) to post what they did, it means by the time members find out, it's too late.

No there is only one AGM a year which members vote on items at the meeting. This is the way most operate. During the year you make your input known to your local rep. He may bump it up the line or he may even pole other members in your district/zone and if there is no support he may not push it up the line. Most reps act in step with the majority and stop short of taking on personal agendas. No corporation or association is required to ask permission from the membership to run the organization, rules are in place, a budget is in place, the officers and directors have been voted and approved. Running the business is their job and they do not need to check or supply that info for public consumption. You as a card carrying member can ask for that info but if its felt you may use that info in an attempt to discredit the organization they do not have to disseminate info to you at all.
When you say its to late I ask to late for what your director has voted for or against according to what he feels are the wishes of the majority he represents. If you have a problem with that you have to take it up with your director. You don't get a say in stuff that is day to day operations.

Another fallacy is you keep referring to your dues as our money. Once you pay your dues its no longer YOUR money. Its the cost of membership. If at all you will get one vote that's it majority rules in that case. I belong to two ranges which I pay yearly membership and I get no say in how the range is run. I also belong to a sportsman club and I get one vote at open meetings. I belong to two rc clubs my dues allow me to fly at the fields and gives me one vote at the open meetings. At the proper time and place where I have a vote I may make a motion if I wish to change or amend something. It will need a seconder then a vote by the membership. Pass or fail the majority rules and I can live with that.

I misunderstood the way you characterized how your organization operates.

That said, many organizations in which I'm a member have more robust rules governing the processes by which things are acted upon. AMA has virtually nothing with regard to the level of expenditure that require board approval, let alone membership approval. I guess the difference is whether one believes an organization rest power in the hands of the members or in an oligarchy. AMA clearly believes that power should rest in the hands of the nobility and detached from the unwashed masses. Perhaps that's the reason they're on the financial trajectory they're on. Perhaps it's your very premise, that it's no longer OUR money but THEIR money that's also driving the declining numbers. One can only wonder what it would be like if they put the majority of dues money into clubs where members actually fly than into staff at Taj-Muncie.

I don't know that AMA even has a formal process by which members can formally raise issues, that is in a way that doesn't allow one of the oligarchs to act as a gatekeeper. While it's easy to rationalize this by saying that most of the ideas are crazy, one has to keep in mind that sometimes, just sometimes, that oligarch is wrong. What if that one idea put forward is actually the golden solution ... but the oligarch doesn't understand it or has their own personal reason for not letting it see the light of day. Having a defined process by which one of the elites cannot be the sole gatekeeper on ideas is what protects the organization and ensures that new thinking sees the light of day.

Given many of the criticisms of AMA involve them doing what they've always done and hoping for a different result, it seems like creating a path for new ideas would have merit. But that's probably scary of the nobility ... the oligarchs don't like to share power. Which is why nothing will change for AMA. I'd argue it also explains why FT is growing, and AMA is not (or only barely).

First of all you cannot just throw an idea out there and expect it to be welcomed. If that were the case they would have to have more staff to runabout and that is against what you believe in.

You need to find out how to go about and create change within the rules of engagement. This is the basic format we use for MAAC.

Submissions come as motions, "I have an idea/suggestion" just doesn't cut it and never will make consideration. These motions fall into either a resolution or recommendation. You must know which yours is. Resolutions have to do with the organizations constitution and they will need to pass by a predetermined percent usually 2/3 or 3/4 of the membership. All others will be recommendations which will pass with a simple majority. Here is the tricky part your motion will have to be in writing, no spelling errors and the syntax must be correct and clear on intent and meaning. If it is not it will be returned to the people who made the motion for resubmission next time around. Once the wording/spelling is correct it will need to be voted on. Resolutions tend to be for or against and are enacted within the time constraints per organization. For instance they may take effect at the start of the following year they have been approved. Recommendations that pass may be referred to committee for fine tuning or could be superseded by a similar motion. Look to Roberts Rules for all the ways your motion may get derailed.

Make sure your motion is correctly worded and the intent is clear by working with your Constitutional committee or chairman

You must submit it through your zone/district if it passes then it goes in front of the board or in your case the executive council.

Notice of your motion if it makes it this far should be posted far enough in advance of the meeting so all members have a chance to become familiar with it.

This is another misnomer. A cabal is a group of people who are united in some close design, usually to promote their private views or interests in an ideology, a state, or another community, often by intrigue and usually unbeknownst to those who are outside their group. Sounds more like you guys.

A director/board member can hold and vigorously campaign an opposing position/point of view however once the vote is cast and the majority position is determined that director must stop his campaign and throw his full support behind the majority. If he cannot fully support the direction the organization has chosen he must resign his position rather than cause dissention among the ranks.

For the good of any organization the board has to be seen as a cohesive leadership. This is what you are seeing not some president running roughshod over the executive council.

Drop the pedantic tone. I'm not an idiot that doesn't know how to work within the rules, bylaws, prepare a motion, etc. etc. etc. Many here, including me, have done that and it goes nowhere. There's no report back on status, black hole. And yet the entire time the rhetoric coming out of the nobility is "we need your ideas," or "we need your help," etc. etc. etc. But any number of people in these forums have offered numerous examples of going to AMA with ideas, offers of help, etc. only to. have them go nowhere. I think it's fair to say that most of us see this was "We want your _________ (ideas, help, suggestions, etc.)" ... BUT "... only if it's aligned with what we wanted to do anyway."

Example. They were trying to gain an entree into military Morale Welfare & Recreation (MWR) world. I knew (from experience) that MWR offices aren't really interested unless Active Duty get a discount. Disney gives them, Sea World, heck even ski resorts and such. So I wrote up the formal proposal for discounts. Heck I even advocated to limit them only for E5 and below (typically those that need them most + not quite as much a revenue hit for AMA).

I know, shocking that this dumb-a** country bumpkin retired US fighter-pilot could figure it out without your in depth education on how to submit a proposal as you detailed above - but I submitted it using the process like you described above. It went to the EC and it passed. And you know what? That was YEARS ago. You know what's happened since then? NOTHING. Repeat NOTHING. They never implemented it. And guess what, that MWR entree they sought? It went nowhere as well. My point in this is that even when one gives them what they want, provides insight into what's required, writes up the formal proposal, and it passes - they fall flat when it comes to follow through. And even when they do follow through, they move at glacial pace.

Unfortunately, I'm not the only one. I hope others will chime in with other suggestions and such that they made --- only to see them go nowhere.

Not exactly the type of actions that get people excited about expending discretionary effort ... only to have AMA fail to follow through.

AHHHHH is this along with their refusal to fund your private flying site what has got your knickers in a knot?????? Hell most of the motions I have made didn't go anywhere either didn't bunch my knickers up any. I gave it my best try it didn't work out. By the way it was a recommendation even if it passes doesn't mean it had to implemented. Wasn't it because of the insistence of a discount for all military personal the sticking point? They could not agree so it did not go anywhere? It happens good idea can't come to terms get over it already. Lots of military and ex-military on this forum I don't think many are wringing their hands in sorrow over this.

Nope. As someone who's spent the better part of their life in a high performing / high reliability organization, I have zero tolerance for ineptitude and lack of initiative. In both cases, I saw in first hand. In subsequent actions on other issues, I saw that my experience was not unique. The list is long:

- Attempt to use law to compel membership
- Asking for help establishing flying fields, only to turn down a field over universal access in post 911 world (note 1)
- Continued obfuscation of their true financial status
- Executive compensation growth well above rate of inflation
- Continued growth of staff compensation as percent of total revenue
- Continued losses on magazines, yet no accountability (nobody FIRED)
- INEPT execution of basic staff functions
- INEPT leadership
- Lack of a credible safety management system
- Lack of any accountability for dangerous acts (turbine community comes to mind --- see EC notes from earlier this year)
- Almost deliberate effort by ED and EC to "not see" obvious rule violations right in front of their faces at events

I"m sure there's others, but that's a short list.

- membership down
- income down
- magazine that is not self-supporting
- salaries increasing, despite all measurable metrics on the decline

At what point will you stop being OK with it? When they no longer exist?

Astro

My mistake then thought for sure I heard gnashing of teeth..................

Interesting. The first time you comment, it was simply this:

Then after I write a full response, you CHANGE your original comment .. adding significantly ... all of this:
And even if it was an issue they couldn't come to agreement with MWR, the PROFESSIONAL thing to do would be to provide feedback to the person who made the motion.

But alas, PROFESSIONAL and AMA shouldn't be in the same sentence, ever.