Jim Branaum.....Get a grip on yourself.

If you can't play in the sandbox with the rest of us take your toys somewhere else and play......sounds familiar!

yer wasting yer breath david.
my own experience with jim in person, and the stories his fellow club members and san antonians tell me, he dosen't wana hear any view other than his own, which is always right. they describe him as a "pompus *****".

It's really funny how much different his tone was when he was trying to get the write in vote a few months ago.

Step aside Horace, JimB. just took your spot with his latest post.

Troll, Do you fly turbines?

So why do the jet jocks have trouble playing in the same sandbox as the rest of us?

Could it be because they have shown less reverent obedience to the great sandbox monitor than the rest of us?

Abel

We are TRYING to play in the same sandbox but we are too big a primadonnas, and trying too hard to be egotistical @$$e$ to be able to get along! Geez gets all fed up just having a discussion imagine what he would be like if we were arguing.....he'd have a temper tantrum throw his toys and leave the sandbox.....wait a minute....I think that is what he is trying to do!

I don't understand why some people can't just disagree and go on with it. I don't necessarily agree with everything being said here but I respect everyones opinion.

As I understand it, in control line speed, when the record in a particular class reaches a particular speed, the line diameter required for that class is automatically increased.

Jim

Jeez Jim---If I didn't know any better I would have thought that you wrote Dave Brown's February editorial......I think you finally snapped.

Jim....Why do you feel that there is a need to find middle ground when THERE ISN"T A PROBLEM???? Our jets are no less or no more dangerous than they were in their inception. Why all the sudden fuss now??? Why do guys like you think that jet jockies need to capitulate to the whims of the ignorant concerning speed??? Just so you can feel warm and fuzzy inside, claiming to have made a perceived difference in safety??? How many times do we have to drill it into your heads that VERY few are even going fast??? What about our safety record??? I see you have turned the blind eye toward that issue....

Why do you perceive standing up for what we believe in as being arrogant??? Just what we need---Guys like you that don't have the faintest clue concerning jets, lobbying other clueless individuals to kill jet flying. Where will you place your conscience when you spread your lies concerning how unsafe jet jockies are----If anything, may I remind you that God is watching!?!?!?!?

With that last post I'm glad that I was finally made aware of your true colors...Don't even bother to reply as you have just flushed your own credibility down the toilet.

Kevin

Hey, Jim, a few evenings ago I was trying to think a similar situation ref. the jets. I was unable to get the thinkin' cap adequately out of the box to relate the two, since jets don't just fly for speed trials and there are no strings tied to them.

Is the AMA Adolph possibly also thinking in such limited means and is therefore attaching all these strings to the jet-set? [>:]

I was sadly mistaken to support your write in campaign for the Dist 8 VP slot. Will you be my friend Horrace? Mike Krizan

Matt,
When I wrote that I was steamed. The open personal attacks are part of the problem as is those who have nothing to say except how much more they do, know, and deserve. I have been frustrated at the clear REFUSAL to accept that there IS a problem within the waiver holder community. Don't I get the chance to rant as everyone else does?

The direct answer to your question is no, I wouldn't bother to write letters because phone calls work so much better. Before I start that, I am looking for a solution that might work.

Here are the problems many (including some on the EC) see. Consider these issues and how their negative implications work against those interested in moving the turbine community forward. Better yet, figure out at way to get some of these loose cannon to consider the problem rather than their own instant gratifaction.

From conversations within this forum some of the loudest attackers against the attempts to clean up the waiver process claim to have lots of jet time and yet openly state that they have NO WAIVER. However, outsiders (lurkers) reading have noted the waiver status and the frequency with which he claims to fly jets.

Careful reading of the Jet forum indicates that the accepted procedure in that community is to do maiden flights at sanctioned events with turbines. That seems to mean that the turbine community is probably outside the AMA rules at every sanctioned event. There was some discussion about that this afternoon and we agreed that maiden flights at events is not just a turbine problem, but a hobby wide problem. However, as far as we know only the jet guys seem to brag about it in public.

This is just one example of rules not being followed by the same group that loudly claims to be safer than the average modeler. I guess that means that they can break any rule they want and still be the safest people in the hobby. Right? I cannot sell that idea to my club members, could you?

Current turbine rules are not being enforced. The entire waiver process was an attempt to allow the community to police itself and the speed limiter and t/w issues clearly indicate the failure of that process. What makes that bad is that everyone seems to have some grief about the costs, both in money and effort, to implement a new and better system that should benefit all. That could be (is?) viewed as an intentional breaking of the rules by the turbine community in its approach to the AMA.

As of this afternoon, both the TRC and the JPO have indicated that they will NOT participate in the presentation of the seminars on turbine rules in California this weekend although Carl Maroney invited them. I guess that pretty well describes the willingness to share information with the community from the current leadership of the waiver holders. I think that the no contact position being tacitly taken by the TRC and JPO is not good for the hobby, much less the turbine community.

The turbine community is asking us to trust them again when they have not even followed the rules they agreed to in the past. They tacitly violate the basic AMA Safety Code. The claims of safety from within the community are clearly flawed when we consider incidents like the crash into the impound at the Best of the West fly in April or the explosion on crash in New York as recounted by an e-mail from Dave Mathewson in the Jet forum. Of course these don't get counted as statistics since the pilots homeowners paid the claims rather than the AMA.

It is too bad that some small percentage of the turbine guys are messing things up for the entire community. The rest of the waiver holders need to get heavily involved with grabbing control of the loose cannon or the community will suffer more because of them.

Thank you for being a reasonable and intelligent modeler. Good luck.

Jim,
You are running for AMA VP on a write in ballot. Please answer the following questions for us jet guys so we know where how you obtain your information about the turbine community.
1. How many jet events have you attended in the last 3 years?
2. Do you have a turbine waiver or have ever flown a DF jet?
3. How did you determine there is a problem with the waiver process or the turbine flyers are out of control?

Tom Perry

Jim,

No personal atacks here just a heated discussion. If you are an "insider" looking out it appears that the majority of people that are attempting to set the rules for ANY activity in the modelling community do not actively participate in that activity. I know absolutely nothing about pylon racing other than what I have read in their rules, so in my opinion I have no buisness attempting to come to conclusions about their rules process or about regulations that govern their activity.

Even more carefull observation at those events and you would see those same flights being done on the days prior to the event or outside of the scheduled hours. One of the big "crisis" points that everyone keeps harping on is the incidence of fire upon crash of a turbine model. At EVERY event I attended last year their are provisions for fire fighting on hand. Several of the events had the local fire department on hand, and almost all had at the very least water pack fire extinguishers and four wheelers ready for rapid response. What better scenario than that for maiden flights. As you so well stated this is a hobby wide "problem". Maybe it is time that the safety code is ammended to reflect the fact that in most cases the safety level is higher at an event than at the local flying field. Add to that the fact that especislly with these high technology models that there are almost always manufacturers reps, and highly experienced pilots on hand that can go through a model and spot problems that someone not familiar with that particular model could. Again enforce the rule accross the board and I am sure the turbine community will follow suit.

I have also been frustrated at the clear REFUSAL to accept the faact that there are MANY problems through out the entire modelling community but the turbine community seems to be the current whipping post.

I make no bones about it, I am a waivered pilot, a Turbine CD and an active field rep for the two largest jet related manufacturers. I am an active and high time pilot so I have the experience to back up what I say. If you argue that point you just make yourself look like a fool.

Since you have jumped on this bandwagon I ask for your proposal as to how to enforce these rules? The group of modellers that I fly with made a concerted attempt a few years ago to come up with a method to enforce the T/W restrictions. We attempted to come up with several easy methods for measureing static thrust. We implemented our methods at a variety of jet events over a two year period, as a matter of fact we still have one of the thrust "guages" in our trailer. Many airplanes were measured over the course of several events and the discrepencies were noted. Conflicting measurements were the norm. This is when the speedlimiter issue was incorporated. Admitedly not everyone that should be using a speedlimiter is using one but in the vast majority of cases one is also not needed as the airframe is no capable of exceeding 200 mph even with 1.5 to 1 T/W ratios. The problems with speedlimiters and the proper installation of the same has been a long time discussion in the jet forums and I won't rehash them again here.


Currently the JPO has underway a Risk Management Initiative. Through this initiative we are compiling information, in the case of past events some what belated, but in the future all event CD's will be asked to submit details of the event, including number of pilots, number of crashes, fires (if any) and the reason determined for the crash.

We are taking these issues very seriously and even though you seem to believe that we are all a bunch of loose cannons will push for implementation of rules that are actually enforceable in the real world scenario.

I suggest if you really want to make a difference in the turbine community that instead of constanly bashing those of us that fly them that you take a little more involved position and start attending more events. Note for yourself that some of the issues addressed in the current rules just don't seem to be the important issues with regard to safety.

I really don't have a big problem with the ego, if you are successful in your profession and have extra cash to flaunt you should be free to flaunt it. But some seem to think that everybody should stop flying their toys and watch the big boys with their toys. Nothing else will do, if you can't afford a Jet don't fly. That attitude is a turn off. I should have enough cash to buy a Jet when the kids are though college, yet I don't think I would go for anything that costs more than a couple thousand dollars. I would rather spend it on a cool car or maybe a full scale aircraft. That doesn't make me a second class modeler because I don't fly jets.

I have not voted on the poll as I am undecided. I think a speed limit may be a good idea, I just don't know if 200 MPH is a good speed. Maybe if near a metropolitan area I don't know. At the same time I think Dave Brown is correct that there should be a limit to the size, speed, and fuel carried by a model. I just don't know if the present jet models are at that point yet. On the other hand I think that those who want to fly them should be allowed to, just that they should either pay more in insurance, or start a separate organization (perhaps within the AMA) to handle it. A sub-chapter of the AMA may be a good idea, that way if Dave is right and a huge lawsuit cash's out the entire insurance policy the rest of the AMA would still be intact.

Sport Pilot,

This is a big part of the problem. I fly jets because I like to fly jets not because I want to flaunt ANYTHING. I don't expect ANYONE to sit down and watch me while I fly. Fact is that most of the time at non jet events that I and others fly at we are asked to fly by ourselves as demonstration flights. A lot of the time when we crank up our engines pilots that ARE flying land so they can watch. Not everyone can afford a jet nor does everyone that can afford one want one. They great thing about my local club is that their is such a diversity there that we all get along and fly what we enjoy flying.

Take a look at the following pictures from Ozark Mtn Jet event (Sullevian Mo) last Sept. I was there for 3 days and those fire trucks arrives an hour before the beginning of the event and are the last to leave. Though not mandated or required by AMA but another good example of proactive safety items that the jet community brings into play to help mitigate any fire issues associated with flying turbines.

Regards

Ben
AMA 9119.

Tom Perry, Your questions infer that the Jet Comunity has some political force to get people elected. Jim might have PO'd 1/10 of 1% of the AMA membership here with his comment.

Ghost, The fact that fire departments attend Jet events is not good PR in my mind. It might make them safer but says that the need to have them is because of a high probabilty of fire. Besides the guys in those picture look like their at a picnic and not prepared to respond to anything (having put out many, many brush and structure fires I know what I am talking about). I'd guess they are more interested to watch the fire when there is a crash. The comment about having ATV's and extingiushers on hand is a much better idea.

David

Let’s make this generic since you do not make it clear that the actions you describe are your own, and may be those of others.

A CD that allows a maiden flight when a large number of spectators are present is not living up to the terms of his appointment. His first concern is safety, whether that is in the form of fire prevention and control, or preventing potential personal injury. A CD can is not allowed to determine which he believes is more important. He must insure a safe environment for everything and everyone. While this is a problem in many areanas of the hobby, most of the time it is not apparent until after the breach in rules has taken place. I know of no other area where it is sanctioned by a CD and discussed openly. It is almost always some individual that does not disclose the action and takes it independently.

A CD is charged with following the rules. If the rule says you will have a speed limiter when an aircraft exceeds the T/W, then that is the rule and must be enforced. There are no “unless’es�. The CD that allows a turbine to fly, at a sanctioned event, without a speed limiter, when the T/W is exceeded, because he believes it is incapable of speeds in excess of the speed limit, is breaking the rules, as is the waiver holder.

The incident at the Best of the West again points to problems. The pilot made several passes in an attempt to land, and could not line up the runway, ultimately stalling it into the TX impound. Was he a new waiver holder? Which CD signed him off? Was it a new plane? The point being that some CD or CDs put people at risk.

The AMA is not a mandatory organization. Being an AMA member is a voluntary decision. Being a waiver holder is a voluntary decision. Being a CD is a voluntary decision. All of these choices come with rules which are accepted when the decision is made. Not following those rules has consequences.

In every area of life, we are controlled by rules and laws that were made by our representatives. The fact that those representatives do not have intimate experience with every facet of the rules and laws they make is an accepted part of our way of life. In the case of the AMA, I doubt that any leader has a complete understanding of many of the venues that he must make rules for. I would be surprised if there is ANY one individual within the hobby that has a complete understanding of every arena.

When the turbine rules were made, they were built on the concept of self-policing. A small group of waiver holders has taken it upon themselves to determine which of the rules they will abide by. Now, the waiver holders are back at the AMA, before the EC, saying, once again, trust us. Do you see the problem facing the EC? Dave Brown has taken the position that this is not acceptable due to the results of the previous attempt at self-policing. Results that you describe in your posts.

Several times, in other threads, it has been lamented that the AMA does not take action when a wayward waiver holder is reported. The fact of the matter is that unless there is due process, no action can be taken. Under the proposed rules, there will be such due process. In the past, the waiver of only one individual was pulled, and that was for fraud; the forging of a signature of a TCD on his waiver application. Without due process, the AMA opens itself to suits. Several suits of a similar nature, in the past, have created large settlements. Just like the rules that control the AMA members, the AMA, itself, must abide by the laws that require due process.

David, you have alluded to the fact that no large insurance claims have been handled by the AMA due to turbines. As Jim pointed out, this is, in large part, due to the “secondary� nature of AMA coverage. Most claims are going to be paid by other insurance and the AMA will never be aware of such claims. To try to use the fact that the AMA has not paid claims is misleading, as is a call for the statistics relative to those claims. The reporting of all incidents at turbine events would be a move in the right direction when it comes to trying to access risk management.

Again, as Jim pointed out, it is unfortunate that some SMALL PERCENTAGE of waiver holders are causing problems for the rest of the jet community. As I pointed out before, the rules are designed for all, not just those with marginal ability.

I do not want to see turbines banned again. Having said that, I would be surprised if self-policing continues to be the mechanism by which rules are enforced and… maybe… that is as it should be.

JR

Hhhhmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!. It is a good PR because fire was the main thing DB was worried about.


When was the last time you visited a fire station during the summer. (lol)

Regards

Ben

JR,

I don't know is the "maiden flight issue" is as widespread as is being made out to be, it certainly is not any more of an issue than at any other events. I have at numerous times been at scale contests, local flyins, etc... that maiden flights have occurred and it has been no more of an issue. Why is it that the turbine community is all of the sudden the bad boys when accross the board this is an AMA rule that is being ignored by every facet of the hobby. If the maiden flight is flown at the event prior to or after the official event times is it an "illegal" flight? This has been debated ad nauseum in different forums.

If the T/W is exceeded how do you propose the CD measure this? As I described I have been down this road and there is not a good method to accomplish this. To much variance between methods.

The Best of the West incident just proves that there are people out there flying turbines that don't need to be flying them. Some CD signed the guy off at some point in time. When I got my waiver it was certainly a lot less diffucult as the TCD did not exsist at that time. FWIW I refused to sign a guy off for his waiver last summer because he crashed the plane that he was attempting to get his waiver with. His comment was it was too windy.... so what... it was a judgement call and he should have grounded himself prior to the crash.

I don't think we need to carry on without rules, I support rules and feel like we need rules in place to govern the masses. Problem is the enforcement of those rules. I disagree with your comment about a small group of waiver holders deciding which rules they will abide by, the majority are following the rules or are attempting to follow the rules. There are some individuals that feel like some of the rules are not enforceable. Some of the rules, T/W for an example are not good rules they don't take into account the inherent aerodynamic differences in the airframes. So what might help to limit the speed of one airframe might not limit a second cleaner airframe at all.

I think you will find that the majority of legislators in this country that are charged with making the rules in society gravitate to the "experts" in the field to try and formulate a set of rules and guidelines that are reasonable and enforceable. You state that Dave Brown is faced with us not policing ourselves but yet has he spent the time finding out why? Could it be that we are not just a bunch of renegades with blatant and total disregard for the rules? Could it be that we can't find a good method for enforcing the rules so we are eliminating the unenforceable ones and trying to implement some that might be better rules. Rules that are more likely to focus on a solution to a greater issue, pilot competency? It will really be interesting to see how enforcement other than self policing would work. I'm ready for my speeding tickets.

Couldn't agree more... It would be much better to have some clowns and give away balloons...maybe even make little animal figures out of them.

You can make a case for event times as opposed to an sanctioned event date. What you can't make a case for is whether spectators are present. If there are spectators, it is the responsiblity of the CD to put the safety of the spectators first, and it should not be allowed regardless of time or date at a sanctioned event. This applies to all venues, not just to jets. Anything less is not an acceptable action by a CD. This item is the basic charge of a CD. More than enforcing rules or putting on a show, and such is stated in the documents CD are accountable for.

I would think that a self-declaration by the waiver holder, in writing, should be the very least that could be done.

So, should the CD have been determined and his TCD status reduced to that of a CD? In this case, there is due process. Did anyone pursue it? Where was the self-policing?

The T/W rule was put forth by the experts. So is your position that when the experts propose a rule that is deemed by some to be uneforcable, that it is cause to ignore the rule?

The experts have put forth a 200 mph speed limit without any way to inforce it. The previous "unenforcable" rules, put forth by the experts, have been... well... unenforced, leaving the judgement of the experts in question. The powers that be, in the person of the EC led by Dave Brown, are now considering a way to enforce it. Speed limiters. As pointed out elsewhere, although an aftermarket unit that is reliable apparently does not exist, there is no technical reason that such a unit can not be built. As also posted elsewhere, when it was to the advantage of the turbine community, other technical improvements were made on the turbines that were every bit as technoligically challenging... if not more so.

Why is it that there is such resistance to the development of reliable speed limiters? That is my question and that of several members of the EC as well as Dave Brown.

JR

speed limiters will not enforce a speed limit. those little boxes are way to easy to be dummied up and actually do nothing. and how will anyone know that it is or is not actually working?

HAHAHAHAHA! More like watch their backs! If you're out there flying your Avistar trainer while jet guys are doing 175 mph low passes, you are a FOOL! I get my butt in the shelter, and never turn my back on the jets. Jets make a cool noise, and it's amazing how the pilots can control them way out there where I can't even see them, but the main reason I watch them is safety, not interest.

This whole thread seems like a problem trying to make "one size fit all". Jets are fine out in the desert and I don't care if they go 500 mph. But, to fly jets in a crowded urban environment, with 300 spectators 60 feet from the runway is wildly optimistic, at best.