jr,
by the example of no less than the EC itself, none of the safety code must be followed.

as even you have posted, they claim that they havve never turned down a calim involving no name adress ama number on or in the model.

if one part can be ignored so can all parts.

JR

We just don't want mandatory devices between us and control of our turbines. NUFF SAID.[>:] ECUs are enough and are needed...so don't think about playing that card..

Tom,
I am surprised that you do not have your facts straight as I have always expected better of you. The election is OVER and I lost so get past it and get serious about addressing the issues rather than joining in the veiled threats many of the jet jocks here seem to be making. I am only interested in safety for EVERYONE in the hobby and the loud voices here do not seem to have that as part of their goals. If it makes them mad that I happen to notice that, so be it.

Now on to your direct questions.

1. I have not attended a single "Jet" event, but I have been at several events where turbines were flying. Does THAT make me a worthless dummy as many here seem to indicate? I think not.

2. No, I have not flown DF or turbines and at this time I am getting turned off by the attitude of many that do. That means I probably will not invest lots of funds in that genre1 because I am more interested in FUN.

3. Sorry, I did NOT say turbine flyers were out of control, rather that the turbine community has failed in its basic agreement with the AMA to enforce agreed upon rules regarding the use of turbines.

Read all the the threads in the Jet forum for the last 90 days and count the flagrant violations of basic AMA Safety Code. One that stands out in my mind is the guy who assembled his Turbine F-15 ARF in a few hours so he could do the maiden at some big turbine event. Sorry, I just don't think taking the first flight of ANY plane at a public event is safe, wise, or within the rules. For more indications of things that will answer your question you will have to do more work, I did. Go to the AMA website and (re)READ the Turbine documents, they only pertain to CURRENT rules. THEN go back to the jet forum and read the threads over the last 90 days again, but this time keep a tally of the clear open violations of rules already in existence and not being followed or enforced. That tends to indicate to me that there is a large segment of your group who has total disdain for others in the hobby.

Some folks (not open on this forum) have told me of the commitment to safety most turbine guys make and I recognize that in several of my friends who fly jets, but it is clear that there is a small percentage that do not and are harming the attempts at doing things in a better way. I happen to think that it is the responsibility of the community to police its membership and the turbine community seems to have done a poor job. If that were not true, the instances of basic Safety Code violations and turbine rules violations would NOT be discussed in an open public forum. The nature of those discussions seems to indicate a clear and open disdain for modeling in general.

Tom, no matter how mad you get please understand that I would much rather be wrong. That being said, go do the research because it is NOT about your kind of individual as I happen to know how you fly and do things, but it is about those who to violate the rules the turbine community agreed to enforce and the lack of enforcement. Look at the comment about difficulty in enforcing the T/W rules - THE JET GUYS WROTE - for a very clear indication of the nature of the problem. The turbine community (represented by DavidR - as he stated) signed up to provide some enforcement to rules they sold the AMA were needed and then has thrown the problem under a bus in hopes it would be ignored by all, as reported by DavidR himself. Sorry, but that is unacceptable.

mongo, find me a post where I said they claimed to have never claimed to have turned down a claim.

Are you a waiver holder?

You're too late, the card is being played.

JR

first, you, or someone, will have to teach me how tpo search on content. i can search by topic or poster, but have nevver got content to give good results. and it aint worth wading thryu all yer post to find.

if we can search sucessfuly on content, there are probably more than 3 examples, by other posters as well, to find.

Do you claim that mongo claims that you claimed that the AMA claimed to have never claimed to have turned down a claim? or what... and why do you claim that anyway?

Com on now you didn't be thunking some fool ole troll could flew and jet ramotecontril aeroplan does ya?

JR out of everyone here I figured you knew exactly who I am...I guess not or your just playing dumb.

I wouldn't pull your leg, would I Bill?

BTW, mongo has claimed to not be able to understand my posts before. His claim today is no exception.

>>>>>>>>>> JB says:
1. I have not attended a single "Jet" event, but I have been at several events where turbines were flying. Does THAT make me a worthless dummy as many here seem to indicate? I think not.
<<<<<<<<<<<


Naah JB, personally I think your stated condition was certainly not caused by the lack of attending turbine events. I fully believe the condition has been with you much before model airplane turbines ever appeared on the site.
Glad to be of help in not letting the Jet Pilots take credit for your having such condition. [>:]


HC

Jim,

You know nothing of me because you have never been to an event that I have flown at nor have you seen my personal commitment to safety. Just because I am arguing that something is un eforceable or not necessary does not mean that I do not use said item (speedlimiters) nor does it mean that I have a total disregard for the rules. It also does not mean that I feel that we are all throwing the rules out the door. What I do believe is that we have made some strong improvements in the safety of our models and the piltos flying them. It does not mean I am right but it does not mean I am wrong either. You have taken a position without throughly seeing the community operating other than a few guys flying at a few events and non jet events to boot. Jim you seem to think you are the ONLY person here with knowledge of the Turbine community, from your VAST amount of research on RCU and the AMA website.

Jim,

By not attending a single jet event does not make you a worthless dummy but it does leave you severely ignorant concerning exactly what goes on at the jet events. Simply going to a flying field where a couple of jets might be flying in relaxed company with other types of R/C aircraft is nowhere near the same as attending a jet rally. If anything, flying is much more controlled than in a more relaxed atmosphere as every pilot at a jet event knows what is expected of him or her. Ground traffic, air traffic, and flightlines are run with military precision with the utmost respect for safety. You simply need to witness this yourself first hand to have any idea what we are conveying to you. When you do, you will experience an Epiphany----You will say,"Ahhhhhh....So that's what they mean!!!" Until you do, I hate to say....You just won't get it.

Kevin

The JPO and the TRC have been extended an invitation to be part of the presentation in the seminars on the turbine porposals that will take place at the AMA Convention this weekend. The format of the seminars will include a question and answer period and the collection of information from the participants to be passed on to the EC at the Feb meeting. The seminars are to be presented by Carl Maroney, who endorsed the turbine proposal.

Does anyone know why the JPO and TRC have declined so far?

JR

The first attempt at limiting speed in the EARLY days of turbine modelling.


Speedlimiters, Why do I need one when your airplanes don't? My engines all have the technology integrated into the ECU I use the devices but I don't feel like they are necessary. I have a left thumb, know how to use it and have more than just a flbby chunk of meat between my ears.

J_R,

Could logistics be the cause....I don't have the extra cash budgeted for a plane ticket nor the ability to take off from work at a moments notice....Those on the TRC and with JPO could be experiencing the same thing......When you posted this question earlier it read as if they were boycotting the seminar.

Kevin

Sorry JR we don't all live in California. Also why did they just announce it a week or so ago, and now expect that we all know about it?

Kevin

I can see where the TRC might have such a problem. Is it really possible that no members of the JPO capable of representing the organization are in the Southwest?

David, keep in mind this is a generic discussion and nothing I say is aimed at you personally. Although you may be one very rare individual that can estimate speed correctly, this is not about you, but the entire group of waiver holders.

In a prior post, you expressed the desire for the experts to have input into the rules making process. In both the old rules and the proposed rules, that has been the case. Now, when the new rules, recommended by the experts, call for a 200 mile an hour speed limit, there are some that do not want a method to enforce it. You have made the case that the old rules are, in some areas, unenforcable. Speed limiters being mandated would end the issue. Since most would agree that estimating the speed of the craft is not a science, some method may be required enforce the rule.

The technology does not appear to be a problem, although it currently exists, reliabily, only in one brand of turbine.

It would appear that you have backed yourself into a logical corner, so to speak. Why have another uneforcable rule, in the form of an expert recommended speed limit of 200 mph, without a way to enforce it, when enforcement is only a technological step away?

JR

Logistics is definetly the problem. We all don't have the luxury of just hoping on a plane to defend ourselves.

I don't find myself backed into a corner. The technology is NOT at the point of speedlimiters being widely available. If they were and all turbine brands had them integrated with the ECU's I don't think it would be an issue. JR Do you want to install a thingamabob from Joes electronics shack on the radio of your model? What happens if that thingamabob causes RF interference and causes your model to go into PCM lock out and crash? Hmmmmm..... AMA mandated that device>> I think I will sue the AMA!

Any manufacturer of such components would undoubtedly have product liability insurance. You could make the same argument for any part on a model. Would you use sss's hinges, or yyy's carbon fiber?

How do you suggest the expert recmmended speed limit be enforced, or do you want another expert recommended unenforcable rule? This is a current rule proposal, and not something back from the early days.

JR

enforce it the same way the 55# weight llimit is enforced.
if ya think it is over weight ya weigh it.
if ya think it is over speed, stand there with yer radar gun and clock it.

RE: the turbine proposal seminars

I was not trying to blame anyone. I guess I am just surprised that the JPO would not want to take advantage of an opportunity to get their story out to the other waiver holders. I would be very surprised if more than a very few questions came from non-waiver holders. It also seems to me that this is an opportunity to recruit non-JPO member waiver holders into the JPO.

I have no idea whether Dave Brown will attend the seminars. In either case, I can see the advantage of having a JPO rep at the seminars.

Is the JPO an eastern organization without representation in the west? Serious question.

JR

brilliant mongo, how do you clock the airspeed? or are you going to require some technological nitemare at each event.

all ya gotta know is the windspeed and direction relative to flight

and in a vertical dive, how are you going to measure thremal activity. If the wind is a cross wind, what speed should it be flying? Plug the radar gun into a computer so it can calcualte the variables? Then what? Send the guy home?