BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

archerry,
I thought JR'spost addressed many of your points without getting personal and made sense. Allen's support seems like he has an ax to grind. If JR's points (which seemed based on facts) don't support you theory about the AMA, don't shoot the messenger.

F106A

My Feedback: (2)

Hi,
The only model event that I can remember getting national play by the networks was Byron's "Striking Back" event (remember the protest the Japanese Embassy filed because of the mushroom cloud explosion)! It was covered at two years by NBC, on the Today show if memory serves. IMHO, you'll never get national coverage with C/L stunt, pattern, racing; it's just too "boring" for the non-modeler to watch for any length of time. After all, most MODELERS can’t tell the difference in the maneuvers of the top 10 contestants. I think something like TOP GUN might be a viable option, cause I'm sure that AMA can't put on a show like STRIKING BACK.
I also agree with the previous poster in that the AMA is laying low and really doesn't want national exposure for fear of getting on the Feds radar screen. In the Jet area, there's a thread about a modeler in the UK who is test flying a 300#, 21' wingspan, 8 turbine powered B-52. When someone said we couldn't do it here, someone posted that you could do the same, you just won't be covered by the AMA insurance. I wonder how long it would take the guys in dark suits and sunglasses to come out and start questioning why someone would be building such a model, and I wonder what the national press would make of it, and modeling in general.
Uh oh, I hear the thumping of heavy incoming; I'm heading for the bunker!
BRG,
Jon

archerry

My Feedback: (6)

You have still failed to satisfactorily answer ALL my questions with your rhetoric...... How can looking up AMA documentation solve it's poor opinion perceived by it's members......


Am I reading this correctly?.... Are you accusing me only me of launching insults?... Read back futher my friend where J_R attacks my friends as well as me.... He also personally attacks my integrity.... This forum was not asking for idiots to insult each other..... I'm just to try to solve a problem of poor AMA perception that I see and hear almost daily with my (and ironically his) clubs..... Everyone is allowed to disagree on anything anytime, but I ask you, disagree with what..... the topic? the solutions? the ideas? the comments? the innuendo? the people involved? everyone here in this forum?

I've talked to my club about the gold leader programs.... No one was really interested or did not care, but what does our club do in the community, LOTS!! Now let's bury that in the rhetoric.........[sm=thumbdown.gif]

Guys, if you perseve that there is not a problem here... then fine... I will graciously concede... I have already admitted to you that what I'm hearing maybe HEARSAY, what more can I say. I will leave it alone and continue let the new members hear and see for themselves... I tell you one thing though, these people creating these supposed "False Perceptions" seem to be very powerful people in the modeling community. They project a lot of influence to our new members and these people could easily erode what we have....

J_R

Sounds like a reasonable end to this thread to me.

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

Nature does indeed abhore a vacuum, even socially. With the absence of a certain confrontational element here it seems something has almost imediately filled it's space.

rsallen13

My Feedback: (1)

archerry,

There is more an image problem with the AMA than J_R and others are willing to believe. Life through his rose color glasses(with blinders) must be pretty good!

The group, lead by J_R, will do everything in their power to side track any form of discussion. The refuse to add to the discussion, counter with peripheral questions and the attack when you try to get it back on track. As much as I may disagree with Hoss from time to time he at least is willing to discuss and bring perspective to the table.

In business you come up with the ideas first, and after you agree on an idea or a direction, then you look for ways to accomplish your idea. But in this forum if you wish to discuss any ideas that do not toe the AMA line then you must have already researched, done a feasiblity study, and provide enviromental impact statements. If not some posters will clog, what is in effect a preliminary discussing, with demands and statements that detract from the discussion at hand.

I personally think that the AMA should have a marketing budget that will allow them to get more exposure and improve the image of this organization. What that amount would be depends on what you plan on doing. Would it be $100,000 or $1,000,000, it just depends on where you want to take the AMA and how agressive you wish to be.

archerry

My Feedback: (6)

Thank-you,
I agree with you whole heartedly however, I'm interested in knowing why do you think that is? What is it that seems to be the problem with discussing the problem with these guys... I can tell you however, that it seems that J_R is desparately trying to wear me down and bury me in his rhetoric.

Only when a general concensous agrees that there is no problem and no there is no further need to discuss this issue, then I will concede and make no further entries in this thread........

J_R

rsallen13

please see this: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.a...247&tostyle=tm

archerry

My Feedback: (6)

Here is a reminder to all about why my perceptions are, the way they are.....

I'm sorry but must direct these questions through to J_R as he infers that he has all the AMA answers. Remember this guy is a CD for AMA...... Then maybe those who don't understand what this topic is about may get the idea........

1. Why are clubs incorporating? J_R why did your club incorporate? Who pushed that?

2. J_R, in the past you have rubbed my nose in AMA rules and regs about flying sites when issues arose, at the club meetings, about the Delano field. When pointing to me about the rules, I read at the header "Recommended RC Flying Site Specifications". To me there is a big difference between RECOMMENDED and REQUIRED. Would you care to share with everyone what that was about? Can you tell everyone about the dirt bike track that was put in? Can you tell everyone about the electric wires and the concerns that were brought up about them and the threat that, "if they were cut down again that the field would be closed?" Can you tell everyone how much Delano field complies with the AMA "recommendations." Can you tell everyone about the security at the field, how the kids break beer bottles, leave cans and trash, set fires and do burnouts in the pit area and runway (there is still a bad area almost 1 1/2 years old in the middle of the runway from a bonfire)? What were your suggestions to help solve these problems? What did you say when I offered ideas or suggestions at the meetings? What did the president counter back to you?...

3. Who are your AMA "required" instructors for the AMA "chartered" club? How much are they charging now for flight lessons? Bob charged me $100.... Under his care and control I crashed three times. One day you came out to the field with the "pizza box" airplane, I saw that it was cool and would like to build one for myself? Would you like to share with everyone the rude remark you made to me?

4. In the last newsletters I've received from the club, the vice president was begging members to get involved with things like Fun Flys, etc. I remember my wife and I working two of them, one for Bob and one for Danny... Were either of these sanctioned by you as you clearly state they need to be and what was your involvement in them? What club officer's role do you partake in?

Now please please please (here, let me get on my knees) answer these questions with an image that AMA and the rest of us would be proud of....... This is just for starters... I have more when I've been satisfied with these...... Remember your seting an example for AMA and IMAGE COUNTS!!!!

Please forgive me guys but he had it coming......

yard-dart

My Feedback: (35)

Why don't you two just take it to the field and duke it out? It would probably put an end to all of this arguing back and forth. If you do, please get some video, I'm sure everyone would love to see it!

Oh, by the way. J_R, when I talked to Jay Mealy (one of those AMA guys) on the phone, he told me that a field needed to be to the AMA's recommended size. When it has been estimated that 50-75% of all U.S. clubs (these numbers came from AMA during a phone call) are nowhere near the recommended size, what is a club to do? Are they supposed to just shut down? Do they continue to operate until a plane hits a car that is traveling through the area? If land is limited in other areas like it is here, do you simply not fly? archerry's #2 sprung me to ask these questions, questions that I never got an answer to during another discussion in another thread.

John

J_R

1. Incorporation is desirable to protect club officers and club members in some lawsuits. I pressed my club hard to incorporate, which they ultimately did. I would refer you back to your high-school level business law book, or to an attorney for an explanation of the corporate vail.

2. You read the wrong thing, as usual. I remember telling you to read the safety code. The issue had nothing to do with recommended site specifications. It had to do with flying over spectators. KLM put in a test track for their factory riders, which was used about 3 months a year, a couple of days a week to practice for stadium racing. The stadium races take place on weekends, so the field was clear when most members use it. It is located in the overfly area of the field. Tragically, KLM’s top rider was killed in a stadium race and they have apparently abandoned the track. We shall see. It was my strong recommendation that members not be allowed to fly over the track when it was in use. Ultimately, the board agreed and so informed the club.

There are electrical wires about 2-300 ft off either end of the 500 ft runway. In my opinion, that makes it unsuitable for some types of aircraft, although no club rule currently prohibits any type of powered RC aircraft.

Here, once again, Ron, you are in error. To the best of my knowledge the wires have NEVER been cut. We have, in the past, had a three or four planes clip them and damage the planes, but never cutting the lines. I suppose anything is possible. I have not been a member of the club since it’s inception, but, I do know no such thing happened when either you, or I, have been members. I have never heard such a story.

The description of the field has been made in this forum a couple of times, as has the vandalism and ways that were used to curtail it. You go chase them down if you want the details.

Your suggestions were rejected, by the club, and by me, after listening to them. Just my opinion, but they were the suggestions of someone that had only a few months as a club member and AMA member, at the time, and reflected little in the way of useful suggestions. All I really remember of the meeting was you getting your feelings hurt. Sorry, I have no recollection of what the president may have said at the time. This was not a moment of great historical significance for me, although it appears it was for you. I have been to a few hundred club meetings through the years, and apparently, other than your obvious hurt feelings causing any recollection by me at all, it held nothing special for me.

3. There is no such thing as an AMA required instructor. We do/did have a few instructors that will teach free of charge when they feel like it, and not at the demand of anyone. As to your personal training and ability, I think it is obvious that there was some problem if you crashed a trainer three times while learning to fly. I won’t speculate here as to what the problem(s) may be/have been.

Again, this was not a historical hi point in my life. I do have a vague recollection of your desire to have a PBF. I am certain that if you asked me about it, I would have told anyone that had crashed their trainer 3 times, and had not successful completed training, that the PBF was not a suitable plane for such a person. I would give the same recommendation to any newer pilot now. In the hands of a newbie, a PBF is, IMHO, downright dangerous. Anyone that has flown one knows what I mean.

4. To the best of my knowledge, our club has never sanctioned an event. There is no need to. In AMA documentation, you will find that a field at an AMA chartered club can be/should be insured as part of the charter process. Our club is. Since we were not looking for more pilots than the club could generate on it’s own, and the events were not to be rule book events, there is simply no reason to sanction an event. We are also able to generate enough raffle prizes without the need for a sanction. I think every club looks to it’s members for help with events that are run by the club. There is nothing unusual about requesting it in a newsletter.

There are situations where it is desirable/necessary/wise to sanction event… and there are times when it offers nothing.

Ron, in your posts, you seem to have some wonderous awe for CDs and/or Leader Members. Being a CD/LM is not something I, or most others I know, try to wear as some sort of badge. The only time being a CD has any meaning is when an event is sanctioned. Then, the word of the CD becomes law. If you desire to become a CD revolves around some desire to have others salute you, you might as well forget it. While you may be impressed, I assure you most others are not.

Last year, no one would run for secretary of the club. After two months without a secretary, I allowed the board to appoint me secretary to fill out the year. This year, we managed to railroad a full slate of board members into running and they were elected by proclamation. I returned to my desired position of “just a member of the club�. In other years, and in other clubs, I have filled every position most clubs have to offer.

I hope this satisfies your curiosity. As I suggested in the beginning of our exchanges, this belongs in private and not on RCU. Please keep that in mind in the future.

dcairns

The AMA does a lot of great thing, but one thing that irks me is that gold plated flying field they have in Ohio. I suppose it is nice to have, but I doubt I will ever visit that State. How about putting some of that money and effort into helping local chapters retain and create flying fields?

J_R

Perhaps, if the AMA had a gold plated field in Ohio, consideration might be given to your suggestion.

Mike in DC

Please define "gold plated". I've not visited the fields, but from pictures and reports, they seem pretty common to me. It's not like they have stadium seating or air conditioned pilot stations, or Astro-turf runways. Please educate me. Other than having enough fields for different types of flying, how are they "gold-plated"?

abel_pranger

Mike-
Well, I guess I'm out of touch, because I didn't even know about AMA's field in Ohio. where did you see the pictures and reports? I'd like to do some catching up. I wasn't real thrilled with them spending scads of our bucks to develop a cornfield in Indiana, but I'm staring to get real pissed over another such boondoggle in the Midwest. If we had a better DVP, we might get one in Floriduh or at least Alabama.
Anyhow, back to the topic. A wee dram or three of a nice highland single malt scotch improves my opinion of AMA, and Donald Rumsfeld, and gay marriages, and gasoline prices, etc. Give it a shot, so to speak.

Abel

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

Ohio, Indiana, whatever....How can you respond to the negative image of the AMA to someone who doesn't even know what they are complaining about?

Archerry,
It's becoming pretty obvious that you have history with JR and this thread seems to be so you can bait him into an arguement. Well he obliged you but the problem is your complaints sound like sour grapes instead of image problems with the AMA.

Now rsallen can jump in and tell me I am off topic and if I don't have anything to contribute I shouldn't have an opinion. Sorry bub, someone puts something out there, I'm entitled to comment on it whether you agree or not.

archerry

My Feedback: (6)

You're right I do have history with him.....I was just trying to point out the type of person he his..... If you think that he is on the money and I'm off course that's fine too. I really don't care about what anyone thinks of me or what I have to say, I too am allowed to comment and have an opinion.

The real problem here is is that I allowed him to stear me off topic and that's my bad by giving into him....... Honestly, I had forgotten about him until he showed up in another thread where reemed me there too...

Everyone please accept my apology... From now on I will not give into him and attempt to keep this on track.. It looks like the only way to do this is for me to totally ignore him, in which I will.

Now where were we? What was this topic about? OH ya..................

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

You CLAIM he has nothing to add to the conversation and try to defend your censure actions by saying HIS opinion does not matter. Sure did look to me like you were launching, but I have thought others have launched on me who claimed it was love at first sight so I could be wrong. However, this is confusing. First you tell J_R to take a hike and then you say YOU have to stop giving in to him and at the same time defend YOUR right to an opinion? Did I miss something in your erudite remarks?

Your disdain for J_R is obvious, but you might want to reconsider if that is what you really want to be known for.


Where do I buy the popcorn?

archerry

My Feedback: (6)

Please let me begin by showing you this reply from rsallen 13, from further up in this thread... Also look at the feuding between J_R and FHHuber, wow. Now there's popcorn material. See, I'm not the only one here....

Here's how I look at it. Now I'm going to toot my horn here.....

I do a lot for my current club (and did a lot of the same when I was a member of J_R's).... First I'm an elected officer of my current club. I partake in many of the events and public events, go to meetings when I can, offer help when and where I can. I've run impound at events, set up displays at airshows, co-ordinated field repairs and hosted events to name a few. I've donated time and what items I can to the kids at the school classes we do. I've promoted AMA at our airshow during the AMA convention this past January. I pay AMA dues and have been a member more than 2 years.

I THINK I AM ENTITLED AND ALLOWED TO HAVE AN OPINION. This is just an opinion, what is the threat about that? I have a poor opinion about AMA and feel some of the current AMA EC's and staff (clerks) are arrogant and presumptuous. Again this is just a feeling. If you been following all the threads related to this you will know why I feel this way. There are a lot more people saying the same things.

We are their (AMA's) customer which was built to provide us guidance in model aviation and many other services. With that said, I ask you, if you are unhappy with a service, wouldn't you complain and refuse payment, maybe not deal with the entity again? Take you business else where. Well a lot of us don't have that luxuary and who else can we go to. I also feel that AMA has become too powerful as they are currently the only act in town. And, you all know the saying, "POWER CORRUPTS"....

I would like to become a CD in the future so I can sanction events however my compadres are telling me that I'm waisting my time and it is not needed. Why would they say that? And, this is their opinions and feeling too....

Now why do I personally have a poor opinion?...... Who cares, next?.... Let's bury this with more blah, blah, blah, rhetoric......

I too enjoy popcorn and good conversation, mind if I join you?

Now please let's get this back on track.................................

J_R

Hi John

I spent an hour yesterday talking to AMA. There is no requirement that a field meet the recommended standards. Take a look at the club charter package. There is no requirement for either a description or pictures of the field. Fill it out and send it in. As you say, most fields do not meet the recommendations.

If I were you, when I sent the package in, I would not make an issue out of this. Just send it in.

JR

yard-dart

My Feedback: (35)

J_R,

I think you may have misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I am aware that the AMA doesn't "require" a club to be exactly to their recommended layout. When our clubs PR officer talked with the AMA, they said to send in a layout of our field, they would take a look at it, and they would be getting back with us. Indeed they did. They sent us a letter stating that it would be in our best interest to stop all modeling activities until a few things were changed at our club site. After receiving this letter, that is when I called the AMA and talked to them myself. I wanted them to tell me what I/the club needed to do for them to give us their OK. I was given a few ideas of what needed to be done, but I was told that the AMA would "never" give a club the "OK". If they were to sign off/give a club their blessing, the AMA would then be accepting liability in the case of an accident. This being said, why do they give recommendations? The fact of the matter is, the AMA gives recommendations that most clubs can never meet, because of size issues of course. This is just another tool for the AMA to step that much farther back away from claims. You have stated before that there is plenty proof of the AMA paying claims, so I'm not going to argue with you there, you have my respect on that issue. What I may strike up an argument about is this field size issue. You know just as well as I do that the last thing an insurance company wants is to have to pay a claim. Therefore, they set limitations/guidelines that they require, or need, to be met. That is what the AMA is doing with this field size issue. If a club can't meet these recs, and they have a public roadway near the end of their runway, right there is a claim that will never get paid, if a car ever gets T-Boned. Am I right?

J_R

John

I suspect that many that read this have a situation similar to yours, but, will not step up to post. I know of one specific instance at Mile Square Park in California where a plane got away from the pilot and penetrated the hood of a car on a major street. The AMA, upon determing that the pilot had no homeowner's insurance paid the claim. The reason I know is the pilot is a friend of mine. The AMA paid $14000 to settle the calim. No hassle, just paid. The insurance covers accidents. Insurance companies know there will be claims. They try to charge a premium that will exceed the claims. It's just business, and paying claims is part of the business.

Edit: I suppose that if the street is a major street and can not be avoided in normal flight operations, that might create a problem. If it can be avoided, and the club makes an effort to keep pilots from overflying it, that is a rather normal situation.

yard-dart

My Feedback: (35)

J_R,

Again, thanks for the insight. It seems that you always have an answer for everything, and I don't mean that in a smartass way. I have never seen an accident since I have been in this hobby, four to five years, and hope that I never see one. However, I have heard of accidents at surrounding clubs that did have a problem with the AMA paying claims. I don't know what the specifics were. Anyway, I guess it's one of those situations to where you can't complain about a claim not being paid until it's your own.

John

Oh yeah, I'd have loved to seen the look on the drivers face when that balsa bird went through the hood of their car!

J_R

I have always suspected that look was the reason the claim was settled for $14000 instead of $1400

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Here, have some of mine....