"Training program" in clubs? ROFLOL! Sorry, but I think there is a significant difference in the way folks do things across the country.

Most clubs I have seen training was a catch as catch can issue. In fact as a club officer, I have seen and heard new members cry that the instructors were not standing around awaiting their every beck and call. When I tried to implement a qualification program to make sure our instructors were at least able to teach, I got shot down because the entire thing was going to 'steal rights from those who wanted to instruct', with no regard about instruction coming from the newly minted 'pilots '.

Jim,

You have my sympathies, as a club officer myself in previous years, I have also gone down in flames on numerous occasions.

The points that I made above ARE working in my club. The club has bought into it, the instructor's have bought into it, and the process as a whole seems like it is producing new pilots of respectable level skills.

Again, I am not saying that this is a perfect solution for every club and situation, just one that I have seen work first hand.

Jay

I had occasion to talk to Bill Oberdieck today. At his urging, we talked about several items directly related to this thread. Bill was the chairman of the S&L committee.

First, the definition of an accident, with respect to the report of the S & L committee, is limited to claims actually made with the AMA. That’s it.

He had no direct knowledge of the document pertaining to safety officers and field marshals. It was not done in conjunction with any action taken by the S&L committee. He promised to chase down it’s source and let me know.

No mandates will be made to clubs in conjunction with the S & L committee report, nor is he pushing for any sort of mandate. In his view, the safety officer is someone who points out safety issues, poor operational acts, improper flying traits, etc. to help in the prevention of accidents, and absolutely is not a field Nazi.

One word that kept reoccurring in the discussion was concentration. Trying to get through to the membership that when flying models, concentration must be maintained. Pay attention and don’t stick your fingers in the prop, don’t tune the engine from in front of the arc of the prop, know where your plane is relative to the flight line. Concentrate on what you are doing.

Club record keeping is not part of the recommendations.

The first report was a report written by committee members, and was not meant to be released. It was a set of talking points for possible consideration, many of which were dismissed out of hand upon discussion.

We also discussed the liability when inspections are made. The IMAA’s handling of this issue by self-declaration from the pilots was discussed. No required inspections by a safety officer were in the report due to this issue.

A committee was created to proceed with the pre-production steps necessary to produce a visual media training/educational/informational/helpful safety related effort at some future point in time.

J-R
Well it seems since there was a logical clarification two days have gone by without any comments. thread is dead.

JR-
So is Captain Kangaroo. He isn't likely to come back, but the thread will, and I'm looking forward to it - curious about how far afield the subject will drift. Maybe the DVD project could eventually transform into a Meg Ryan adult video. Then I'll get behind it 110% and support a significant AMA dues increase to fund a major expansion of the World Class Muncie model aerodrome facilities to include a 10 sq hectare indoor flying site, and campaign for Dave Brown for Life Grand Wizard or whatever the heck else he wants to be, and push for expansion of the Safety Code to 18 more pages of borderline Swahili.
These guys just need to exercise some basic marketing skills.........

Abel

Meg Ryan? Boy have your standards slipped!

We don't need no stinking adult videos on our DVD's 'cause we got the Safety Code. More today than yesterday and more tomorrow than today. Say hallelujah.

Hi Excaliber

If you take the time to actually see what goes on in this forum, it is not at all unusual to see a thread lose interest when the facts are put forth. In other cases, the facts raise additional questions and the discussion continues. The fact that Bill Oberdieck took the time to call and clarify the facts will certainly make a difference in the speculation in the thread. I had invited him to do that any time. It’s an open invitation to anyone that knows the facts and can substantiate them, and it has been communicated before.

The resolution of some concerns in this thread raises an issue. One that Bill and I discussed. Why is it that the AMA does not communicate with the membership? The S&L committee existed for two years, yet was largely below the radar. The average member does not know it existed. Is there a better media than MA, or the AMA site? A lot of discussion took place, but no really good answer. Part was due to the current political atmosphere and Bill’s desire not to point fingers. Why should the AMA leadership have to contact a rather ordinary member to get the facts out? This was not the first time this has happened, although it is with Bill. I had offered to do so, and he took advantage of it. Let everyone understand that this offer is not limited to Bill. It’s a general complaint that I have made many times against the lack of communication.

Excaliber, while I was talking to Bill, I suggested that he have you write a post on his background and qualifications. I hope you take advantage of this forum and do so.

This forum appears to be maturing into a genuine conduit to the AMA. In my opinion, people such as yourself should step up, take the heat if necessary, and deal in facts… not try to get me, or anyone else to do that for you. The level of “background noise� has recently risen to a new level. Folks that should be above such things are playing games. This is not a reference to you, but to those that will not even post, but try to influence others in the background. Like it or not the leadership is paying attention to us. The three presidential candidates have pledged a clean campaign. I believe they, personally, will adhere to that pledge. There seems to be mutual respect among them.

The report that was posted at the beginning of this thread was not something obtained through some special source. I got it be requesting, from HQ, the EC minutes and appendices of the last meeting. They are free to any AMA member that requests them. This is a fact I have posted several times. There were no attacks, just unanswered questions. Now, with help, many have been answered. Some may remain. It would not hurt if you answered them rather than me.

JR. in reading posts 80&81 clearly point out the fact any serious discussion gets twisted around so that it loses the original content.
adult videos, Captain Kangaroo, Meg Ryan, etc etc.

Bills qualifications??? In my opinion he is very much qualified to lead the AMA. Just 4 examples I know of
He is strong on subjects he believes in and speaks in a language everyone can understand.
Layed back when necessary
Deals in factual info only, doesn't B/S anyone
works his butt off for the members in his distric
I'm sure those four statements will bring out the best of the ridicule and negative comments from some of the posters here.
Question??? of all the posters that may post a comment. How many have actually met Bill O.
JR says he has, Jay L has and Jim B says he has, 3 WHOOPIE.
Have a great day.

excaliber

That is exactly the point. How many have ever met Bill Oberdieck… or Dave Brown... or Dave Mathewson, or any of the other candidates, for that matter? How many even know someone else that has met them. RCU’s AMA Discussion forum, with all of it’s warts; chit chat, personal attacks, off topic posts, mis-information, etc. … all of it, is way better than any form of communication the AMA offers. For WHATEVER reason, members do not make contact with the leadership. The opinions presented here may be biased, nasty, useless, wrong… or factual and informative. It beats the heck out of whatever is in second place.

The candidates will have a campaign statement that is limited in length. Certainly not enough room to disclose their qualifications, visions, records, and opinions, etc. . Heck, we don’t even get to see the resumes that earned them a place on the ballot. Here they have the opportunity to communicate, or have communicated for them, all they wish to disclose.

All of the candidates can post here, or the candidates can have persons they choose to represent them post here, or people that do know them can post here… people who have no idea who they are can post here. Questions can be asked, attacks made, opinions expressed, and some of us can even manage to make jackasses of ourselves. Can it be improved? Dumb question. So, let someone come up with something better. Until then, here we are.


As a personal note, I have often solicited information and presented it here. I have no desire whatsoever to be a spokesman for any candidate. That function should fall to those like you. I am not going to do it for any candidate. I will express my opinions, not act as a representive of anyone.

And your point is ????[>:]

I haven't met GW Bush face to face although I have attended an Inauguration Ball and have been invited to each of them. I have donated money to his campaigns. I haven't met Kerry, but I know enough about him to think that if he becomes President, I suspect the National Sales Tax of 29.9% (Kiplinger Tax Letters) will become a reality. Just the possibility is enough to make me say "_ell NO!" to him, even if I should disregard his Socialist and Pro-UN stands.
By the same token, I have no use for BO reference his written works and an apparent attitude of dictatorial ambitions. AMA has had enough of that.
In spite of whatever so-called "facts" that he may distribute in hopes of gaining votes, my vote will go to DB before it would ever go to the BO of AMA. Now you should also have noticed that DB ain't my favorite candidate. Then, of course, my favorite ain't on the ballot.

Cain, spoken like a true , do nothing but B---ch individual. Or is it because you are a frustrated has been.
I offered my opinion,from what I know. And you come back with dictatorial attitude. could you clarify that for all of us.
What "so called facts " don't you understand. His comments made sense.
and lets see, aren't you the fellow that bailed out of being a VP because you couldn't stand the heat or have it your way.
Now you have the nerve to call someone else dictatorial. You base your comments on his writings. Can you read???
Maybe, whoever does the reading for you needs help as well.
you're a real piece of work.
There is an old saying, "what goes around, comes around" or something to that affect.
chew on that cain.

Excaliber,

Yes, I have met with Bill O. more than once, talked to him on the phone more than once, and even done business with him. So exactly what is your point?

Let me see if I understand your fine attitude correctly. It is your opinion that we should all shut up and just live with the fine examples of absolutely flawless AMA thinking as was demonstrated by Rule #9, THAT NO SINGLE EC MEMBER EVER VOTED FOR? By the way, that exclusion INCLUDES Bill O.

Unless I am mistaken, that rule was much more this year than it was last year. That makes my observations factual and the comments about next year reasonable given the FACTS. Care to argue that point, or just throw more rocks?

EXACTLY what is your problem?

Now back to the subject of the thread.

I figured out the only possible rule we could write to keep folks from putting body parts in spinning props. That is to stop flying model aircraft. If that is unacceptable, then we need to look at the number of rules in force to find out if we have overloaded folks. For example, why do we need to keep adding more and more things to the Safety Code? It is reasonably clear to me that the new additions don't create safety. Care to comment on that one, or just throw more rocks.

JB, my point exactly. you may be one individual of "how many"? on this forum.
My fine attitude? where do you read where I imply the shut up and live with what the AMA says.
#9. you've seen it enough times that there never was a vote by the EC before it was published in the safety code.So I guess it is correct, he never voted for it. your point?
I have no problem with RC#9 except for the fact it has become boring to watch all the wanna- bes trying it. (torque rolling)
I don't have any problems with the safety code either. I think it is a document that was/is intended to bring things to mind that modelers may not be aware of in order to fly safely.
I think you have nothing better to do but antagonize, tear apart issues and attempt to put words into statements that aren't there.
And if that makes you happy, so be it.
I won't attempt to explain Bill O's actions or how he thinks. I am confident that he is quite capable of handling himself in any situation that he may encounter.
Have a great day, you've made mine.

Your remark about "any serious discussion gets twisted around so that it loses the original content" (#83) clearly implies that the only discussion YOU are interested is that which occurred in Muncie. My name is on my posts for all to see. Some days that is easy and some days that is hard. SInce you seem to have such a good 'in' with a candidate, I wonder when YOU are going to have the courage to use YOUR name.

Since YOU "don't have any problems with the safety code either. I think it is a document that was/is intended to bring things to mind that modelers may not be aware of in order to fly safely", please be so very kind as to tell the pond scum on this forum how thick the Safety Code has to be to satisfy your every wish for a perfect world? That would be a whole lot more productive that your wild, unsupported John Wayne tricks about "serious discussion" on safety and accident prevention.

I am glad you are having a great day destroying the chances of a candidate. To quote YOUR remarks to HC (in #86), "what goes around, comes around". I hope someone can do as much for you someday. I sure hope Bill appreciates the corner YOU are painting him into.

JB, you wouldn't know a seriou discussion if it bit you.Unless you think your ranting qualifies for any kind of discussion.
So put your name where ever you like.
I gave an opinion, I have no in with Bill O in any way,shape or form. you're the one that has spoken with him.
Forget it regarding who I am. I will not give you the satisfaction. You're the one bellyaching about the safety code not me. I think Pond scum is appropiate, maybe the code has to be thick enough to bounce off heads just to get attention.
What are you drinking or smoking coming up with John Wayne tricks. My idol. may he rest in peace.
destroying chances of a candidate or hopes he appreciates the corner I'm painting him in.
Not thats classic. where in the heck did you come with that crap. personally I think he's the only one with the gonads to do what is needed. sure would be interesting if by some slim chance Bill O did win.
And because you did mention it. I had a terrific day today flew my 42 %er and my 33% made a little noise and after flying had a few drinks and a great steak dinner with some friends. couldn't have been better.I hope tomorrow will even be better.
You are one antagonistic individual. By the way since you have his number why not let him know whats going on here.
But then that would require dialing or pressing some numbers on a phone. You do have one don't you. Or do they still use smoke signals down your way,or maybe signal mirrors like in the old John Wayne movies.
Ah yes looking forward to another great day right here in U S of A. Adios

Some comments on Bill O.

1. Every major function that our club has had, he has either made a personal appearence or has had one of the AVP's come to our event.

2. I have talked with him numerous times. His number one concern is SAFETY. I talked to him last Friday as a matter of fact regarding the same issue that J_R did, and was given the same answers. (Please note that I talked with him prior to J-R's post). The call to Bill was a return of a call he had made to me earlier in the day.

3. He'll tell it like it is, straight, to the point, no B.S.. He is not a favorite at HQ because of this, but it does help him in getting things done.

4. I discussed some of the problems that I had noticed and had with the NATS and C/L W.C.s handling and lack of communication, and he informed me that he was aware of this and was sending messages to the right people. Now, what those people do with the messages is another forum topic altogether

5. I expressed my dissatisfaction with Mr. Kaluf, and the way he handled the hotel arrangements for the C/L W.C.. (Booked all of the rooms at the "good" hotels for the visitors, locking all of the RC Combat pilots and pit crew members (70 to 100 people ) into having to book at what I would call second rate establishments. ( I DO NOT recommend the Super 8 in Muncie). Bill said he would pass on my problems to Mr. Kaluf.

Again, I deal with Bill numerous times throughout the year. I have always been well treated, not just given the "politically correct" brush off, and have seen action from him when it was necessary. I can most assuradely tell you that what he puts in his campaign letter will be his goals, and he will work with complete determination to acheive these goals.

Guess you can tell where my vote is going.

Jay

Jay,
Thank you very much for the level headed comments. They tend to track what my thoughts on Bill O are, even when he and I disagree on some things. However your words were are a whole lot more descriptive, effective, and useful than the persistent personal attacks launched by Bill's other supporters.

Maybe YOU could write up something describing Bill and his outlook on AMA things. Someone close to him really needs to get something out soon, and you have had regular contact with him.

Excaliber, most sane folks would not classify personal attacks as serious discussion. You have launched several direct, personal attacks on different people in the last several days and yet you claim knowledge of serious discussion? I suggest you take a break, cut back on the drinking, and do more flying.

Jay L. what a refreshing post to read for a change. I'm sure if he reads this forum he would be very pleased. nicely done.

JB, regarding personal attacks. I seem to recall in one of HC's post where HC said that Bill O would have problems with words larger than two syllables. that is personal to Bill, not me. he also accuses him of dictatorial writings. But I guess that could be construed as an opinion.
Now on to me, I also smoke cigarettes and cigars as well as drink socially. I refrain from smoking in the presence of others if it bothers them. AS for the few drinks I do have I will continue to enjoy them. In fact I am looking forward to doing just after posting this.
I will again have a great ending to another perfect day.

By the way JB did you ever contact Bill O, just curious.

Adios and ta ta

Exc., just to refresh your "recall" and overly worked memory chip, here are the exact words, which are different than your gossip.

>>>>>>>"As far as Oberdieck, I perceive that just maybe some EC VPs just might have been guilty of a smart thought. Leave Wes de Coup OFF the ballot so as not to have two popular personalities against DB and therefore dilute the opposition. No one with any idea of what AMA should be would vote for Oberdieck. Every writing of his that I have read indicates to me that this man will find great difficulty in understanding any thing requiring a two-or-more digit IQ."

Bold added for your recognition.
<<<<<<<

No mention of word syllables, however IMO, such does sound additionally descriptive.

Hoss,

Thanks for the input....but.

I think some of your opinion is based on what you have read from this forum. Much of what was attributed to Bill O. (i.e. the airpl,ane Nazi's the Safety Ghestapo) was nothing more artistic licenese taken by a couple of posters in the "interpretation" of what they felt was going on. As JR and I have stated, much of what was attributed to Bill and the S&L committee on this forum was a stretch of some pretty dark imaginations. I.E. I seem to remember a question of "Do they want us to report every prop/finger strike? This answer (again as stated by JR) was no. They want a report file kept on major (read claims) accidents involoving the insurance side of AMA. This report file will assist the AMA if they see a trrend in which they need to "tweak " the rules to protect the membership.

J.L.

Jay-

I guess my imagination was on the dark side, as I didn't (still don't) see why such reports are purposeful if limited as per what JR learned from Bill O. For accidents that involve claims, one might think the reporting has already been done - else what was the basis for paying the claims? What is the value added by this new program? Another thing that makes some people cringe is the whole 'protect the membership' shtick. Time after time we've had the EC restrict our freedom to enjoy our hobby with rulemaking that overrides our common sense and responsibility, which is presumed to be so inferior that the EC has to think for us for our own good. That isn't good enough for some, e.g., Dave Brown, who thinks he has to override the inferior judgement of the rest of the EC that is overriding us. From my perspective, we have more than ample numbers of nannys at the club level to override individual common sense and tell us what to do so we don't hurt ourselves.
Okay, I'm skeptical. I still don't know if this program has a purpose, and if it does whose purpose is served by it.

Abel

Abel,

I quote from post #1 (The Report)

"6) Proper investigations of all accidents with the who, what, when, where and why with proper record being kept for future evaluation. "

To me as a layman this is not troubling. I give an example

20 "accidents" occur in one year. 10 from battery failure due to improper charging, 3 from pilot error, 4 prop strikes, 3 mid-air related.

Now the AMA can see that there is a trend happening here. So they use an article in MA , e-mail to members, notices to clubs, to reinforce proper charging techniques.

Also, as a layman, I read into this that a database of cause and effect does not already exist, and incidents are handled on a case by case basis. Perhaps there are those that feel its needed for AMA to better understand yearly patterns that develop, so that they are in better position to react and advise the membership.

Jay

Mr. Jay Lawless;

Thanks for your advice, however I have been in this AMA business for a couple days longer than your profile indicates you have been.
My opinion of BO stems from days long before this thread or even this forum was ever thought of. Actually if I depended on this forum for my decisive actions I would be as uninformed as as those on the street.

In addition, I am well aware that every bureaucratic malfunctioning taxing bungling program started in some legislative council as someone's "Good" idea. Just because some here are here to preach the AMA gospel as the "Come unto me and be forever protected by Big Brother," doesn't mean that all here will succumb to such trivia. Actually anyone with a working head on his shoulder recognizes this forum as simply a recreational form and not much more.

My decisions are based more on what is done and not what is said. Been doing that with AMA and other much more significant organizations for many years. AMA Leader Member for 40 years.

Horrace,

I submit to your having more "experience" with AMA, thus driving your opinions on this matter. You are welcome to them. (As I hope am I).

I also respectfully submit that I have in the 10 years+ that I have been a member of AMA, and six years that I was a club officer, also dealt with and formed an opinion regarding AMA.

We may differ to some extents, we may agree. Either way "recreational forms" like this forum are sometimes the only way a gentleman from Texas, and a gentleman from Michigan can express their opinions (whether in oposition or agreement). But, in the long run, debates on differing opinions "should" lead to compromise. This does not always happen, sometimes it results in a pi$$ing contest. Either way debate is healthy.

ALL,

Hypothetical: "If a person is unhappy with current situation in an electorate type system, is he/she better served by complaining or casting a vote in an attempt to make a difference" (Not intended to single out anyboby, just a question for thought)

J.L.

I have no problem with your logic, Jay. The kind of statistical analysis you outline is fundamental to the risk assessment that all insurance companies do - except apparently AMA. Imagine running a bookie joint and not having a clue what your house odds are! The data input for those analyses comes from insurance claims. AMA has the claims. I guess the inference from the report is in Item 6 that you cied re Proper investigations . Apparently current investigation (accident reports submitted with claims) is not considered 'proper' and sufficient basis for future evaluation is lacking.
If that is the case, and it's far from clear yet, wouldn't it seem worth asking if the missing information should be required in accident reports that are already a basic part of the submitted claims? Is a separate, redundant process and empire that inevitably goes with it really necessary to collect the needed data?
Not for you to answer of course, but maybe to question.

Abel